Cruisers are becoming more and more pointless

[Admiral_H_Nelson]

 

Spot on.

 

Cruisers are indeed the strongest most game affecting class. It also happens to be the hardest class to play. It's not the ships or the amount of BBs that's the problem it's the players who struggle to make the class work.

 

Perhaps it would be better for the overall enjoyment of the game then if Battleships were the hardest class to play, and cruisers the easiest.

[Earl_of_Northesk]

this is the first ranked sesion when I think Atago is useless (I am not owner so could be biased) but still less useless than Mogami (lost cause) and Hipper (I have hp but nothing more)

 

 

Please examine why?

[mtm78]

 

Perhaps it would be better for the overall enjoyment of the game then if Battleships were the hardest class to play, and cruisers the easiest.

 

Don't even respond to that guy it's a known troll ;)

 

Nice advice from low tier player:-) anyway problem is that natural enemies of BBS were eliminated by WG one patch after other. First CVs matchmaking, next step was AA. High tier BBS are pretty independent with AA. IJN DDs torpedo nerf and now German BBS with turtel armor and hydroacustic.

 

My Izumo shot down 30 planes the other day, I commented in chat how I was actively trying to get close to the planes as the enemy carrier started avoiding me all together. Felt so wrong, focusing on squads and see them die before they can even drop on me ( and with an IJN BB ffs... not an Iowa, NCal or Monty... no with an Izumo ( with manual AAA specced captain ofc )).

 

It's not the ships or the amount of BBs that's the problem

[Ryuuteimaru]

 

Spot on.

 

Cruisers are indeed the strongest most game affecting class. It also happens to be the hardest class to play. It's not the ships or the amount of BBs that's the problem it's the players who struggle to make the class work.

 

ERR nope Cruisers have probably the lowest impact on how a game plays out, there only supposed role is to help the classes that do make a real impact but currently they're not great at that support.

[mtm78]

 

ERR nope Cruisers have probably the lowest impact on how a game plays out, there only supposed role is to help the classes that do make a real impact but currently they're not great at that support.

 

Cruisers should be the mainstay of a match, with a few BB's and a few DD's, then cruisers are indeed the most flexible class with the highest impact ( depending the most on player skill ). The moment you get MM issues putting 6 BB's vs 3 CA's, cruisers start having issues benefiting from their universality as those tasks get harder and harder the more BB's there are. Certainly when those BB's are not in one big lump of ships, since spread out enemy BB's mean you can not angle for BB's salvo's without giving broadsides to other BB's. 

 

But hey, some people just think that water isn't wet ;)

[ShuggieHamster]

just throwing this out there as a serious question (me being just a T6 max player)  ...  could this just be another issue being exacerbated because a large part of the community doesnt want to play as a combined arms team in what is a team game?

 

[Ryuuteimaru]

just throwing this out there as a serious question (me being just a T6 max player)  ...  could this just be another issue being exacerbated because a large part of the community doesnt want to play as a combined arms team in what is a team game?

 

 

Part of the problem is people unwilling to team play but that is massively exacerbated by the fact Cruisers currently simply can't fulfil there role those that try just get focussed and deleted.

[Baby_JeeWhizz]

 

Part of the problem is people unwilling to team play but that is massively exacerbated by the fact Cruisers currently simply can't fulfil there role those that try just get focussed and deleted.

 

Take from this what you will, but I played 1 game in the universally derided Nurnberg yesterday in a tier VIII match and this was the result;

 

 

And although this was a loss in the Chapayev, I had a good game of cat and mouse with the Kagero. We lost our DDs early on which meant that nobody wanted to venture into the cap circles. The enemy Kagero and Fubuki had managed to get around the back to our CV so I ended up sailing back to light them up with radar (it worked) but in the process I was taken out by the Tirpitz. Despite eliminating the DD threat our remaining BBs still camped (that Gneisenau was not AFK belive it or not).

 

 

 

[mtm78]

 

Take from this what you will, but I played 1 game in the universally derided Nurnberg yesterday in a tier VIII match and this was the result;

 

 

And although this was a loss in the Chapayev, I had a good game of cat and mouse with the Kagero. We lost our DDs early on which meant that nobody wanted to venture into the cap circles. The enemy Kagero and Fubuki had managed to get around the back to our CV so I ended up sailing back to light them up with radar (it worked) but in the process I was taken out by the Tirpitz. Despite eliminating the DD threat our remaining BBs still camped (that Gneisenau was not AFK belive it or not).

 

 

 

 

Anecdotal, play 100 games and then tell me current meta is acceptable for CA's. 

 

Another way to put it: one swallow doesn't make a summer. 

 

I had some pretty good Izumo games lately, performing well above my normal levels in the ship. Yes it makes me feel good, but it doesn't mean I suddenly think Izumo is a good BB ( and statistical performance is indicating it isn't ).

[BloodRose13]

just throwing this out there as a serious question (me being just a T6 max player)  ...  could this just be another issue being exacerbated because a large part of the community doesnt want to play as a combined arms team in what is a team game?

 

 

It is an issue because BB's out range, out damage, out penetrate, out HP and out armour Cruisers. Cruisers have ROF and speed/agility to their names but unfortunately that is not enough to save them from imminent death, especially with the USN and Kriegsmarine BB's, the former having thousands of guns and the latter having what are essentially the BB equivalent of machine guns. To do the damage Cruisers have to get close. Really close, and that is where the problem lies. If you can get within torpedo range and fire off a salvo then you will probably do something, but the BB will see you coming from miles away and to him you are just an easy, squishy, target.

Artillery duels with BB's are also pointless as your AP is unlikely to do anything to him, whilst your HE does minimal damage and is more of an annoyance factor than anything else. On the other hand his AP will almost always citadel you, and if it does not it will still inflict heavy damage.

[Baby_JeeWhizz]

 

Anecdotal, play 100 games and then tell me current meta is acceptable for CA's. 

 

Another way to put it: one swallow doesn't make a summer. 

 

I had some pretty good Izumo games lately, performing well above my normal levels in the ship. Yes it makes me feel good, but it doesn't mean I suddenly think Izumo is a good BB ( and statistical performance is indicating it isn't ).

 

I am not telling anyone anything about the "meta", I am simply pointing out that in my, admittedly limited experience, cruisers can have an impact on the game.

 

Another way to put it: it takes many bricks to build a house.

 

I play mostly cruisers and I just don't feel like they are becoming pointless as the thread OP suggests. I may not be the best player, but I don't believe my opinion is any less valid 

[Admiral_H_Nelson]

 

It is an issue because BB's out range, out damage, out penetrate, out HP and out armour Cruisers. Cruisers have ROF and speed/agility to their names but unfortunately that is not enough to save them from imminent death, especially with the USN and Kriegsmarine BB's, the former having thousands of guns and the latter having what are essentially the BB equivalent of machine guns. To do the damage Cruisers have to get close. Really close, and that is where the problem lies. If you can get within torpedo range and fire off a salvo then you will probably do something, but the BB will see you coming from miles away and to him you are just an easy, squishy, target.

Artillery duels with BB's are also pointless as your AP is unlikely to do anything to him, whilst your HE does minimal damage and is more of an annoyance factor than anything else. On the other hand his AP will almost always citadel you, and if it does not it will still inflict heavy damage.

 

Great points! Also,

1) BBs often have very good secondaries which can add to the damage that you take in a cruiser/DD and start damaging fires

2) BBs sometimes have torpedoes too - so they can retaliate if you try a torpedo run!

 

[Admiral_H_Nelson]

 

I am not telling anyone anything about the "meta", I am simply pointing out that in my, admittedly limited experience, cruisers can have an impact on the game.

 

Another way to put it: it takes many bricks to build a house.

 

I play mostly cruisers and I just don't feel like they are becoming pointless as the thread OP suggests. I may not be the best player, but I don't believe my opinion is any less valid 

 

Your opinion CERTAINLY IS VALID!

But so is that of mtm78 who is a fine player, very experienced, ex-Supertester, and a very perceptive observer of the game and the way it works.

 

The problem is the word "pointless", which (like so many words in English) has at least two shades of meaning.

1) Meaning #1, "pointless" as in futile, no earthly reason to do something at all, all pain no gain

As you say, you can still have good games and some fun, so playing "cruisers" isn't pointless by this definition

2) Meaning #2, "pointless" as in ineffective. As in "That won't fix the problem properly - it's pointless"

mtm78 is 100% right in this meaning of the word. Taking 100 games in the current meta you will be much, much less effective than (say) the meta of 6 months ago.

And - for me at least - much, much less fun............as in practically zero.

[komoo]

For what it may matter, I find the current situation acceptable, for the CAs I am playing (IJN), and with which I saw the meta evolving from before the arrival of german BBs.

 

But maybe it's because the IJN CAs don't exacerbate so much the current weaknesses of CA playstyle (aka: unforgiveness for wrong choices).

 

I would not feel so "safe" as I do now if I had not a stealth CA to drive, which would allow me to maximize my opportunistic gameplay. I tried out my old good Cleveland for one ranked battle some days ago and I felt on the very razor's edge.

 

These are my thoughts as a non-main CA player.

[cracktrackflak]

IMHO cruisers currently need "escape" smoke (of a type that will not conceal if the ship fires; same goes for DDs) and/or some sort of frequent-use "repair and HP recovery", so that they can survive long enough to have a useful function in the game. Either would reflect what passes for "reality" in a WG game.

[1MajorKoenig]

To be blunt: cruisers are not really needed at the moment. I used to mainly play them but all they can do - BBs do better these days without being squishy and citadeled left and right.

 

Main problem if the game is the total absence of pronounced class roles. All that counts is dealing damage. And the versatility of BBs just makes the issue worse.

 

For me that is also the reason why team play suffers so bad.

 

Give the ships a role so they complement each other (such as eg. In the Battlefield and Battlestations games) and a more team play encouraging objective. Or leave it as is but then you really only need battleships and some destroyers for the sneaky folks.

[Dominico]

 

Your highest tier is 6, you should add that information to your post as it's gives perspective. 

 

 

 

You really think you should tell me how to play the game? And that the amount of BB's in game is fine as it is, and it's ME not knowing how to play cruisers?

 

 

And as I said fist and foremost, you should add that your 'experience' is limited and goes up to tier six ( you know, for perspective ). 

 

 

You have way too much time on your hands...

 

That said YOU should be qualifying your post (along with all the others here complaining) that you cant play cruisers at "High tier 9 and 10" if thats where the issue lies. You seem from this short post to be the sort of person who doesnt learn. Ive not even looked at your stats but no doubt you have thousands of games yet still dont get cruiser gameplay. The attitude "Hahahha how can you teach me anything! I know all!! Ive played all!! If it doesnt work for me its broken!!" is slightly arrogant and not helpful to yourself or anyone else. If you are unwilling to learn you wont ever get better. 

 

For a fact cruisers up to 7 are not an issue if played as cruisers should be, if you are  at the front of the battle, vs the entire enemy team, with only destroyers there... trust me you will be deleted, in any game,  be it tanks battleships, paintball hamster fighting. Its not hard to figure out. 

 

The only answer to the whine you guys are having about cruisers which lets face it, boils down to "i cant tank battleship hits" is to ban battleships when you are playing or make a maximum of 2 per game, sod what anyone else wants in this multiplayer game, its all about you and your cruiser taking on the entire enemy team and winning. 

 

Read the complaining posts, what do they all have in common?

 

I cant win in my cruiser at the front when the rest of my team camps at the back. 

 

You can replace cruiser in that sentence with anything and you will lose, its not a cruiser issue its you going blindly in while your team stays back. Its your team and you = fail. If you are in a situation where the entire team is firing at you then you should be dodging, thus allowing your whole team to fire back with no incoming. If you are so close you get wrecked you messed up, if you are so far and still get wrecked you are just a terrible player and 100,000 games isnt going to change that. 

 

PS the people getting hit by cruisers in citidels at 20km are terrible players. Seriously... if you are consistantly getting hit at 20km by a battleship i dont know what to say... but i would say after a few thousand games its most likely time to stop playing them lol.

 

To the "Cruisers have no point" crew i reiterate my point that they are the hardest to play, but played correctly, ie taking on destroyers, spotting battleships, supporting fire on cruisers and battleships, torping and aa support. They are the most flexible game winning class there is with a good player in command, though the skill threshold is much higher than destroyers. 

[Quetak]

high tier cruisers dont need anything. They are all fine as they are (speaking for T9 and expecting that T10 will not be worse than T9).

Cruisers are most fun class for me.

Only problem with cruisers was in T8 when you face T9/10 very often. And there they have heal ability which you dont. They have usualy better armor and guns so in 1v1 against T9-10 cruiser you have significant disadvantage.

Geting citadeled on long range? Use incoming fire allert and it will never be issue again.

Yes, they are harder than BBs. Yes, they punish your only mistake very hard but thats way how to improve yourself and learn from it.

Its easier just sail BB and avoid that oneshot deaths which can be frustrating for many ppl.

 

[Exocet6951]

 

 

PS the people getting hit by cruisers in citidels at 20km are terrible players. Seriously... if you are consistantly getting hit at 20km by a battleship i dont know what to say... but i would say after a few thousand games its most likely time to stop playing them lol.

 

 

Play a bit more battles at higer tier, specifically when your cruisers have longer turn radii than tier8 BBs, then we'll talk. 

 

Getting hit in a Furutaka at 20km by a potato accuracy Kongo or a NY using the spotter plane is one thing, but getting hits at 20km with an Amagi on a heavy cruiser the size and maneuverability of a Mogami is easy.

There's just enough dispersion so that if you lead the target into its turn, you hit. And at that tier and that plunging fire distance, a hit is either an overpen (count your lucky star) or a citpen.

[Admiral_H_Nelson]

Ive not even looked at your stats but no doubt you have thousands of games yet still dont get cruiser gameplay. The attitude "Hahahha how can you teach me anything! I know all!! Ive played all!! If it doesnt work for me its broken!!" is slightly arrogant and not helpful to yourself or anyone else. If you are unwilling to learn you wont ever get better. 

 

 

I suggest that you ACTUALLY DO look up mtm78's stats, and then edit your post a bit . . .  well, a lot . . . in fact, completely rewrite it.

 

A couple of examples:

1) Highest tier in cruisers

mtm78  = 10

you  = 6 (3 games)

 

2) Your most played cruiser is Furutaka (57 games)

How do you compare?

 

Category	You	mtm78
Win Rate	47%	67%
Average Damage	16,799	34,692
Average XP	611	1145
Warships Destroyed per game	0.56	1
Aircraft Destroyed per game	0.44	0.33
Main battery hit ratio	33%	40%
Torpedo hit ratio	6%	14%
Kill/Death Ratio	0.7	2.2
Highest XP	1539	2658
Highest Damage	55,987	131,188
Most Warships destroyed in a game	3	5
Most Aircraft destroyed in a game	3	3

 

 

AND MTM78 PLAYED IT IN THE BAD OLD DAYS BEFORE IT WAS BUFFED!

 

You'd be better off asking mtm78 for lessons, rather than abusing him.

 

[Quetak]

 

 

Play a bit more battles at higer tier, specifically when your cruisers have longer turn radii than tier8 BBs, then we'll talk. 

 

Getting hit in a Furutaka at 20km by a potato accuracy Kongo or a NY using the spotter plane is one thing, but getting hits at 20km with an Amagi on a heavy cruiser the size and maneuverability of a Mogami is easy.

There's just enough dispersion so that if you lead the target into its turn, you hit. And at that tier and that plunging fire distance, a hit is either an overpen (count your lucky star) or a citpen.

 

Sorry but he is right. As I posted above - Incomming fire alert is the way. If you are constantly geting hit on 20km range you should try this skill. You have more than 10s time to change your course/speed until shells land and its enough time to dodge it.

You need to sacrifice turret traverse speed skill or wait for 17pt captain but its worth it. I can swear that I dont rememeber when I was oneshooted from 15km+ last time, maybe never since I use this skill.    

[Spithas]

To all of you arguing against Dominico's analysis:

 

He is actually pretty damn spot on. And you are all welcome to check my cruisers stats and tell me that i don't know what i am talking about. 

[Quetak]

my cruisers stats

 

...now I know how good I want to be

[mtm78]

 

You have way too much time on your hands...

 

Better to much time then just enough and not making use of it by making .... statements  

 

That said YOU should be qualifying your post (along with all the others here complaining) that you cant play cruisers at "High tier 9 and 10" if thats where the issue lies. You seem from this short post to be the sort of person who doesnt learn. Ive not even looked at your stats but no doubt you have thousands of games yet still dont get cruiser gameplay. The attitude "Hahahha how can you teach me anything! I know all!! Ive played all!! If it doesnt work for me its broken!!" is slightly arrogant and not helpful to yourself or anyone else. If you are unwilling to learn you wont ever get better. 

 

Yes I don't learn, that is why I keep getting better statistical performance

 

For a fact cruisers up to 7 are not an issue if played as cruisers should be, if you are  at the front of the battle, vs the entire enemy team, with only destroyers there... trust me you will be deleted, in any game,  be it tanks battleships, paintball hamster fighting. Its not hard to figure out. 

 

Why are you making up scenarios to fit your 'story'? Did I ever say anything like what you're talking about  

 

The only answer to the whine you guys are having about cruisers which lets face it, boils down to "i cant tank battleship hits" is to ban battleships when you are playing or make a maximum of 2 per game, sod what anyone else wants in this multiplayer game, its all about you and your cruiser taking on the entire enemy team and winning. 

 

Quote me on this, and in context please. If not.. stop lying and throwing mud around trying to obfuscate the issue

 

Read the complaining posts, what do they all have in common?

 

I cant win in my cruiser at the front when the rest of my team camps at the back. 

 

Really All I can see is people complaining that CA's can't do THEIR JOB when the BBabies kemp bush. So yeah, DD's die because CA's to far to give good support, then team loses and BBabies whine about 'idiot teams'. But ok, you're obviously reading different topics/posts

 

You can replace cruiser in that sentence with anything and you will lose, its not a cruiser issue its you going blindly in while your team stays back. Its your team and you = fail. If you are in a situation where the entire team is firing at you then you should be dodging, thus allowing your whole team to fire back with no incoming. If you are so close you get wrecked you messed up, if you are so far and still get wrecked you are just a terrible player and 100,000 games isnt going to change that. 

 

PS the people getting hit by cruisers in citidels at 20km are terrible players. Seriously... if you are consistantly getting hit at 20km by a battleship i dont know what to say... but i would say after a few thousand games its most likely time to stop playing them lol.

 

Yeah, statement of the month from a pro player right Players who get citadelled at 20km are terrible players, RNGezus and dispersion, or having six BB's all focusing you, have NOTHING to do with it, you heard it here first folks!  

 

To the "Cruisers have no point" crew i reiterate my point that they are the hardest to play, but played correctly, ie taking on destroyers, spotting battleships, supporting fire on cruisers and battleships, torping and aa support. They are the most flexible game winning class there is with a good player in command, though the skill threshold is much higher than destroyers. 

 

Spithas likes your post, so I knew it would be bull. 

[Spithas]

Players who get citadelled at 20km are terrible players, RNGezus and dispersion, or having six BB's all focusing you, have NOTHING to do with it, you heard it here first folks

 

If you are being focused by six BBs then you are by definition a terrible player.