Cruisers are becoming more and more pointless

[anonym_i2RxUTEMphjW]

 

I was 'struggeling' with Hipper recently, but I will push through at some point as I want Roon and Hindenburg. Anyway, Karlsruhe is very good anti cruiser cruiser imo, I did pretty good in her. And you can do good damage to BB's which are ignoring you. BUT, you don't want to get shot at, ever ( glass cannon ). This goes through to Yorck, where you actually get some armor. You will be able to bounce 155 and even 203 AP with some good angling, but anything other than the right angle and you're gone as your citadel is not that hard to hit. The thing I liked about Yorck is the HE being actually good. Nice alpha damage on the 210's and you got decent fire chance as well, enjoy it ( if you enjoy the HE spam meta ). If you get close to something and it's broadside, the AP will do wonders. At range the HE works better due to better arc's ( though you can sometimes get surprise plunging fire citadels with those arcs as well it's hard to hit ). Hipper, well it's fantastic against enemy cruisers which show broadside and it has really good AAA and usable torpedo's for those 'feck I am death anyway let's rush and get some damage in' kind of moments ( or.. you bait some BoringBoat around an island and he 'forgets' you have those fishes ). But angled cruisers are already pretty hard to deal with, let alone angled BB's due to bad HE. 

 

 

 

Ha, i actually expected this answer. Cruiser killers, i saw it in Kuma when they always are a big threat to me. But then indeed mostly unuseful in current meta where you have two, maybe three targets suitable for you and everyone concentrates at killing you first. Nothing that you cannot do better in kamikaze-style Kuma trying to destroy as much as possible untill someone one-shots you or damage your paper rudder what is the same thing. And with those beautiful Kuma's guns (i do understand why people call the little bear OP for it's tier) and it's speed it's just much more fun and better chance against DD rushes, i just have to still make my aim better. Phoenix seems similar, will have to try it, but then i read that US cruisers suck after it... then again, what is the point for me for moving higher in tiers, when the best games i have, i have in Bogatyr?

The funny thing is that, even if it doesn't show enough in my stats, i think i understand that game quite good as for my current experience level, the problem is that the meta makes actually so big demand in practical skills to get good at cruisers, that it's just don't pay when you try to just have fun driving one. Once again i dare to say, all you with thousands of games had probably much better environment to learn those skills and get to higher tiers and now can base on it in harsher meta. And i regret that i hadn't started to play this game a year earlier.

I guess if there's a way to get a statistic of corelation between the tier and amount of games on counter, because if my experience is similar with others', then i suspect that a big part of middle level CA players are actually old ones going back down tiers. The new ones stopping when constant fire from St Louis is not enough anymore and jumping into easymodo BBs or changing to DDs to actually do cruiser job what i am considering now.

And in the end, i started to think if this unbalanced game is really worth the time i\ve put into it last month.

 

Edit @ Damanta: it seems as typical cap, but there were screenshots in other topics showing even more BBsaturated games. And just the number of BBs is not the only factor, it's about the general number of cruisers. Single DD can still do a good job. Single BB could still wreck a lot playing cautiously. Single CV is a norm. Single CA/L is an open target and just have to hide.

[Sub_Eleven]

I'm seriously thinking of just not playing cruisers anymore.

 

Keep sticking your head in the sand, but with over half the teams being BBs cruisers are really pointless. Especially since most BB players just sit at max range. As a cruiser you don't always have the range. So you need to get closer. Hello citadels, even if you keep randomly turning everywhere, you will still lose 10k hp or so every volley.

 

But sure. WG, just keep telling yourselves everything is fine.

 

Exactly. I've benched my silver cruisers a while back save for the occasional Kuma game for kicks, and Cleveland game when I pair with a cv. Didn't really help that I was grinding the baltimore still Kutuzov is still doable thanks to russian bias and smokescreens but other then that my cruisers rust in port. Seems like a good time to pick up the russian destroyer line again when I get AFT on the destroyer captain I'm training with Kutuzov.

[Ragoutrabbit]

I don't bother with them anymore, to much work for to little reward and to much luck involved.

[Kenliero]

I personally enjoy cruisers much more than BB's even high tiers. That said Roon was disappointing....

 

[cro_pwr]

 

Heh, so it actually supports my attitude to not move to medium tiers as long as this MM meta will continue if i still want to have any fun in this game besides tanking in Nassau (as long as it lasts as there's less and less people to fight DDs and i have my nice brawls interrupted by concentrated torpedo salvos more and more often)

 

So what is Karlsruhe (and whole German CL line) actually good to in current meta? Seems i will just drop this line and finally try to get my situational awareness and reflexes even better moving to play some DDs in this place. They seem to be much more suited to the role i wanted to play in a cruiser than cruisers themselves. Hey, but i've heard they're getting nerfed as well. Sigh.

 

Honestly, German and American cruiser line suffers the most in the current meta, while Russian and Japanese ones are much better equipped for the current state. German line focuses more on Ap shells wrecking cruisers (and battleships) giving you broadside, so you can delete cruisers / punish BBs. The problem is, in current meta you cannot get yourself in a good position to shoot broadside BBs often enough, while cruisers are too few to actually focus on them.

While Russian cruisers have great range (16km), great shell arcs (flat arcs that allow you to reliably hit things from that range) and great fire chance so you can burn down enemy BBs from somewhat safe ranges, while Japanese cruisers have their nuclear HE shells that will do large amount of damage / will set a large amount of fires even on enemy BBs when they are angled.

But I do agree with you that this is definitly not a good time to learn how to play cruisers, because games are too punishing for every single mistake you make...

(btw I know my last post was idealistic, thats why I've put disclaimer on it that sadly it just doesn't work like that in games because people refuse to play as a team )

[deadly_if_swallowed]

I feel quite comfortable with the current meta regarding cruiser gameplay, and I am currently playing German cruisers (Hipper and Roon) more often than before. They can be juicy targets more often than not but people tend to underestimate and ignore them quite a lot. Just rain fire (yes, German CAs can do that) and hammer superstructures with AP railguns every now and then. Maybe this is just what IJN cruisers do but I simply love German shell arcs

 

Not sure about CLs though. They sure can hurt a lot but they are probably too fragile for their MM range.

[Redcap375]

Ah, The cruiser discussion.

 

Being a cruiser and CV captain manly, i can see where alot a people are coming from. Due to the high number of BBs at the moment (German and weekend missions), its making the Cruiser line very difficult play.  The direct counter to a cruiser is a BB, so if there is more BBs knocking around it makes sense that the cruiser captains amongst us will feel the hurt alot more.  Not only that but the German BB line are perfect cruiser killers by nature (sharn i'm looking at you pal). Like Cro_pwr said "now is not a good time to play cruisers"

 

Question:

So...Are they pointless (or close to)

 

Answer:

No

 

Here is why:

1) AA cover. Even though this is Nation dependant, cruisers tend to have better AA for fleet protection.  I KNOW that CVs are dying out at higher tiers and I KNOW that some BBS can swat planes out the sky by themselves (US/German BBs) but there will always be a need for more AA cover for allies.  The defence consumable if used right is deadly.  Just ask my skill 71 AA Cleveland and that is only a tier 6 ship for god sake.  

 

2) DD killer.  Do i even need to say more on number 2.  12 HE shots from a Cleveland or 10 shots from a Moyoko and good night DD. Stick a radar on that and its more DD killing time. I have sunk more DDs in my cruisers than another ship.

 

3) Target number one! Often play with my Div/Clan mates who normally play BBs.  The amount of times the enemy BBs target me at distance trying a get a "easy" kill who just end up missing or getting a few hits.  I know they hurt when they do land but whilst that BBs has been firing at me, my two DIV mates have SMASHED THEIR FACE with AP goodness. My job as a cruiser captain has been done.  You have to except that you are a cruiser lads and except that your not going to make it back to dock in one piece, if at all. Always stick close to a BB if at all possible or you will be ice skating up a hill.  I learnt this the hard way in the early days. Even if my mates BBs are closer, they always seem to shot at me  Maybe they just don't like my personality?

 

4) Cruiser wolf packs! Those that have done this know what i mean.  Nothing is more of a pain in the you know what when they are getting teamed up on by 2-3 Cruisers in a BB.  Being slowly eaten by German CA AP and burt to death By US/IJN HE spam is awful. Your quicker and nimbler then he is (generally) and get twice as much shots off.  Run into BBs packs then your in trouble tho. Thats why they call then "Wolf Packs" as they hunt SINGLE pray they can handle. 

 

Summary

Its hard to play cruisers nowadays at higher tiers (8+). You have to expect that you will be punished more than any other ship if you get it wrong.  Even if you get it right sometimes you will still receive damage from just one BB, but that a cruisers captains life.  Perfect angel, perfect speed drop and you still get smashed by BB shells .  The problem is that higher tier matches are camp feast, make no bones about it.  The problem with that is a cruiser sitting at the back is near on useless! Support the DDs and you get EVERY shell coming your way by the other team also camping at the back.  Stay back and your not going to win a range battle with a BB are you? 

 

How many times do we have to see BBs moving forward at 1/3 speed until they get in max range and then stop! Or even reverse!! This sets the tone for the whole game.  The IJN Mog with that range problem will be smashed to bits trying to sneek its way forward.

 

The biggest thing that helps Cruisers at high tiers is the team they are on.  If you have a good team that moves as a group or smaller groups and knows what they are doing, cruisers become very useful (Zao).  The problem is that this game is far from being a team game at the moment..Every man for himself at high teirs and with the repair bills...I don't blame them.

 

I haven't lost faith in cruisers just yet, but the more this games goes onto World of BBs, the more they will become obsolete.  Tier 5-6 is the perfect Cruiser time line. Hold on tight for RN cruisers, they will not be Noobie friendly at all! 

 

IMHO

 

 

[Stasnik]

Post starter is 100% true

 

CRs should be hard to hit from long range salvos fired from BBs.

 

this will solve some problems 

 

[Odo_Toothless]

Crusiers going obsolete ? No way - by introducing Sharnhorst type, new uber cruiser line ;-) Fast reload, good turret traverse, torps, suficcient AA, well working secondaries and the most important huge survability with good speed. Only manuverubility is lacking and size could be a problem.

 

When I first saw them, I realized that Pensa/NO is a second or even third class ship compared to this. I don't even have a speed to run away from this monster. Eventually I can ram him from surprise by slim chance. What can I do what he can't ? I know ! I can hide and be quiet behind very small island, but he can't ;-)

 

BTW. Once playing Budionny I almost burned him alone becouse RNG was on my side. It took however half a game running from him around half a map. His speed, turret traverse and the most important - 20 second reload is so deadly for cruisers and DD too ...

[anonym_i2RxUTEMphjW]

I've played only a few games last days but i saw something:

- almost all games in Bogatyr vs. IVth tier BBs

- all games in Kuma vs. Vth tier BBs.

It's a small probe and still right MM, but I suspect it's getting even funnier as the cruiser hole gets even deeper in mid-tiers sucking lower ones up. Any stats possible to check it?

[Rabid_Turnip]

Post starter is 100% true

 

CRs should be hard to hit from long range salvos fired from BBs.

 

this will solve some problems 

 

 

They are. It's easy for a cruiser to dodge long-range fire, at ranges where the BB cannot easily dodge the cruisers' own vastly more accurate and much higher RoF fire.

[Exocet6951]

Just had a tier 8 match in my Shchors, I kid you not, I hit three tier8 BBs 40-50 times each, only to deal between 700 and 5000 damage to them in total.

 

Armored decks combined with the 1/6 caliber HE rule are ****ing idiotic.

[cro_pwr]

Just had a tier 8 match in my Shchors, I kid you not, I hit three tier8 BBs 40-50 times each, only to deal between 700 and 5000 damage to them in total.

 

Armored decks combined with the 1/6 caliber HE rule are ****ing idiotic.

 

this evening.

 

[Admiral_H_Nelson]

 

this evening.

 

 

Congratulations on a good game!

However it doesn't prove Exocet wrong, or address his point.

 

BTW how much of the damage that you inflicted came from fires - you certainly started a fair few there!

[Exocet6951]

 

this evening.

 

 

Ah but you see, that's my point.

20 fires to do that sort of damage, which can be repair under the right circumstances.

 

I don't doubt the ship's fire starting, I've broken the 100k damage with it on multiple occasions, but seriously, hitting a target literally dozens of times and doing 0 damage is ridiculous. As soon as you see German BBs, or a selection of oddly well armored IJN or USN BBs, you know that all you can aim at is that superstructure, which is in some cases tiny, that will be too damaged quite fast and mitigate all the damage.

 

It's gotten to a point where the match following the one I mentioned, I took out the Kiev and had a field day on an Amagi, dealing 800-2000 damage per salvo, where I was basically doing 0 damage hits with the Shchors.

Currently, I'd rather have 127-130mm guns than 152s, because the former have better HE penetration, and are more reliable on armored targets.

[Smeggo]

HE-spammers are working in current meta, but if you want to play a AA/Destroyer-/CL-Hunter you will have a hard time. It may work but you can have an easier life in other classes.

I hope gameplay will get more interesting when the Brits arrive next year 

[walter3kurtz]

Cruisers are not pointless. They give me juicy citadels.

[cro_pwr]

 

Ah but you see, that's my point.

20 fires to do that sort of damage, which can be repair under the right circumstances.

 

I don't doubt the ship's fire starting, I've broken the 100k damage with it on multiple occasions, but seriously, hitting a target literally dozens of times and doing 0 damage is ridiculous. As soon as you see German BBs, or a selection of oddly well armored IJN or USN BBs, you know that all you can aim at is that superstructure, which is in some cases tiny, that will be too damaged quite fast and mitigate all the damage.

 

It's gotten to a point where the match following the one I mentioned, I took out the Kiev and had a field day on an Amagi, dealing 800-2000 damage per salvo, where I was basically doing 0 damage hits with the Shchors.

Currently, I'd rather have 127-130mm guns than 152s, because the former have better HE penetration, and are more reliable on armored targets.

 

From my experience, I have much harder time (and always did have) HE spamming USN BBs then IJN ones. And now with the introduction of german BBs, my HE spamming fav targets are IJN>GER>USN.

But thats as I said, only my personal experience, doesn't mean its completely true ofc.

 

@Admiral_H_Nelson : 75k from fires, rest is from HE shells.

 

And I know I'm not gonna do a lot of damage from HE shells alone, thats where the fires kick in to melt someone down. I've played 5 games yesterday with Shchors, had 100% WR (not that it matters a lot) with an average of 80k damage and 60% survivability... Considering I had 1 completely fluke game where I did almost nothing (don't ask), you can do the math about 4 others... had 2 games over 100k damage, and 2 with... idk... 70 - 80 k.... Thats with a t7 cruiser for gods sake, the ships that were averaging 40k damage... So while everyone is ditching cruisers and marking them as useless, I'm still happily sailing around burning that big meanies down...

 

And yea, the moment that pissed me off the most yesterday when I caught 1 random BB shell (dispersion ftw), barely scratching my stern and ofc citadeling and killing me... because of why the hell not, right...

[cro_pwr]

Btw, just found the screen I took few days ago that sums up my Shchors playing experience perfectly in one picture

(tip: look at the top right corner of the picture )

 

[Exocet6951]

 

From my experience, I have much harder time (and always did have) HE spamming USN BBs then IJN ones. And now with the introduction of german BBs, my HE spamming fav targets are IJN>GER>USN.

But thats as I said, only my personal experience, doesn't mean its completely true ofc.

 

@Admiral_H_Nelson : 75k from fires, rest is from HE shells.

 

And I know I'm not gonna do a lot of damage from HE shells alone, thats where the fires kick in to melt someone down. I've played 5 games yesterday with Shchors, had 100% WR (not that it matters a lot) with an average of 80k damage and 60% survivability... Considering I had 1 completely fluke game where I did almost nothing (don't ask), you can do the math about 4 others... had 2 games over 100k damage, and 2 with... idk... 70 - 80 k.... Thats with a t7 cruiser for gods sake, the ships that were averaging 40k damage... So while everyone is ditching cruisers and marking them as useless, I'm still happily sailing around burning that big meanies down...

 

And yea, the moment that pissed me off the most yesterday when I caught 1 random BB shell (dispersion ftw), barely scratching my stern and ofc citadeling and killing me... because of why the hell not, right...

 

My problem isn't with the raw damage ability (which, let's be honest, could be toned down on the RU CLs, with that huge fire chance), but the complete idiotic balance choice of implementing armored decks that completely absorb HE damage. 

 

And to add insult to injury, there are some armored decks that will take damage from smaller HE shells from DDs, but not from 150-155mm HE shells from CLs.

 

 

So yes, the long range, high rof, flat arc, high fire chance Russian CLs are still able to do their thing, but come on let's be honest, that German BB branch is basically immune to cruiser HE damage and it's worrying me that some other BBs are being changed in order to have armored decks of their own, like the Montana. 

[creamgravy]

It's gotten to a point where the match following the one I mentioned, I took out the Kiev and had a field day on an Amagi, dealing 800-2000 damage per salvo, where I was basically doing 0 damage hits with the Shchors.

Currently, I'd rather have 127-130mm guns than 152s, because the former have better HE penetration, and are more reliable on armored targets.

 

HE is dumb and only has one penetration rule. That's why it's so reliable.

 

Do your HE shells overmatch the armour section?

 

• No > 0 damage.
• Yes > 33%, 16.5% or 0 damage depending on compartment state (fresh, blackened, depleted)

 

This game is designed around calibre progression and the 'unarmoured' sections of a ship will correspond to levels of HE protection.

 

Battleship unarmoured sections:

Tier 5 battleships = 19mm hull and 13mm superstructure. 

Tier 6-7 battleships = 25.5mm hull and 16mm superstructure.

Tier 8-10 battleships = 32mm hull and 19mm superstructure.

 

HE shell penetration (typically 1/6 the calibre)

120mm guns can damage 19mm armour or less.

130mm guns can damage 21mm armour or less.

152mm guns can damage 25mm armour or less. (Note: Cleveland HE can't damage 25.5mm armour sections)

155mm guns can damage 26mm armour or less (Note: Mogami HE can damage 25.5mm armour sections)

203mm guns can damage 34mm armour or less.

 

Conclusion.

 

• 120mm, 130mm and 152mm HE is functionally identical agasint tier 6-10 battleships. They can only damage the superstructure.
• 155mm acts like 203mm agasint tier 6-7 battleships but can only damage the superstructure of tier 8-10 battleships.
• 203mm HE can damage most battleship sections, especially ones with the 'all or nothing' armour scheme. (German BBs with more armour have muddied the water a bit)

[Exocet6951]

 

Conclusion.

 

• 120mm, 130mm and 152mm HE is functionally identical agasint tier 6-10 battleships. They can only damage the superstructure.
• 155mm acts like 203mm agasint tier 6-7 battleships but can only damage the superstructure of tier 8-10 battleships.
• 203mm HE can damage most battleship sections, especially ones with the 'all or nothing' armour scheme. (German BBs will more armour have muddied the water a bit)

 

 

I read that DD's had a 1/4th caliber rule when it comes down to HE though, but I may be wrong...

 

Still though, have you seen some of the current BBs? 50mm armored deck on most German BBs, the Amagi has a 35mm armored deck all over (with a tiny superstructure), USN BBs all get 26mm, Montana is getting buffed to 38mm...

 

And considering that you have to either stay at a distance or be double citpenned, aiming at the sometimes very humble superstructure is just an RNG roll.

At least USN ships have the decency to have huge superstructures, and IJN ships tend to have thin decks.

 

But that moment when you see two Bismarcks, a Tirpitz, a Gneinesau and a Colorado in a match (and let's face it, that's the sort of MM we are currently getting), you hae to assume that only 1 in 6 shells when using (most) CLs have a chance of actually dealing damage. The rest is purely fire damage, which is countered by good damage control discipline.

[Unintentional_submarine]

Exocet6951, on 28 September 2016 - 12:31 PM, said:

 

 

I read that DD's had a 1/4th caliber rule when it comes down to HE though, but I may be wrong...
 

Still though, have you seen some of the current BBs? 50mm armored deck on most German BBs, the Amagi has a 35mm armored deck all over (with a tiny superstructure), USN BBs all get 26mm, Montana is getting buffed to 38mm...

 

No, the DDs have the same 1/6 rule. Akizuki appears to follow a 1/5 rule though, but she isn't ingame yet. And German BBs have the infamous 1/4 rule (not all of them, but enough that you can call it the German BB Rule).

 

The German BBs does have a 50mm central deck. But their bows and sterns have 32mm decks (just make sure to not hit the sides as those are armoured to an extent), and their superstructures are absolutely massive. Hitting the 50mm deck is less likely than the superstructure. Amagi has a uniform 32mm deck. Everything but her conning tower, turrets and belt is 32mm or less. 203s are very effective against her. The USN BBs follow the same rules. Montana was unique is having an especially weak central deck at 29mm (the patch notes are wrong in saying it was 28mm), but Iowa has always had a 38mm central deck, and the other areas are 32mm. Beyond that the USN BBs follow the 19-25-32 progression.

[jure_eruj]

Face it, with current BBs infestation, there is no point in playing cruisers. There are usually only 2 cruisers in the game and with those scared camping BB bastards far behind your back you don't have a chance. Once you are spotted, there are immediately at least 3 BBs pounding you. I loved playing cruisers, but until WG fix the shitstorm they created with their "balancing", they will more or less stay in the harbor. 

[_GrimLock__]

With so many bbs around im the only one that thinks this is cruisers he spam heaven?And cruisers arent pointless in this current meta ,not a single bit in fact this is their time to shine