Cruisers are becoming more and more pointless

[mtm78]

It won't work in your flawed idea of skill based MM. As stated, it would solve some issues and create some other. One simple version to let less skillful BB players play their high tier bbs without being abused in chat for not doing their part and perhaps contribute more to the team would be to introduce 'casual random', 'random' and 'skilled random' in the port and the players themselves could choose whatever category the prefer to play in.

 

Adding 'leagues' is a hidden form off skill based MM, you still need to determine which category someone belongs in. Ow wait, you want people to choose for themselves to play against terrible, bad, or ok players? 

 

Word's can't express ....

 

 

Ow and ....

your flawed idea of skill based MM

 

Plox, gib your worked out idea for skill based matchmaking ( preferable without flaws plox! ). 

 

Wait, don't tell me your idea was 'having leagues and let people choose freely between them'?

 

[Capra76]

 Cruisers will get the wiggle-wiggle rudder in the new patch but I don't see that helping a lot since it will come at the expense of concealment. 

 

Could be a big buff for the Soviet cruisers, who've got terrible rudders and concealment, swapping detection range for the ability to dodge incoming fire might be a worthwhile trade for them.

[SerPurr]

 

Could be a big buff for the Soviet cruisers, who've got terrible rudders and concealment, swapping detection range for the ability to dodge incoming fire might be a worthwhile trade for them.

 

I'd very much like to think you'd turn out to be right but a 'big buff' I don't see here. The Soviet CA's imho are most hampered by their supersize turn radii. Don't get me wrong here, I bet some pro players will make this work flawlessly but those players already float at the top of a large pile of debris and basically excel at playing just about anything. For normal/average players the whole 'choose your A/B/C option' really works against CA's more than any other class, especially when it comes to survivability. A heal (even a rather mediocre one) for CA's starting at tier 6, better torp detection, slightly buffed reload for the heavy CA's (15 seconds is just dreadful, all the more since the introduction of the Scharnhorst). Nothing making them ridiculous OP of course. I'm fine with the doctrine of BB's being the counter to CA's and thus being able to deliver punishing damage to them but right now I'd argue things have gone just a tadsy bit too far.

 

 

[loppantorkel]

 

Adding 'leagues' is a hidden form off skill based MM, you still need to determine which category someone belongs in. Ow wait, you want people to choose for themselves to play against terrible, bad, or ok players? 

 

Word's can't express ....

 

 

Ow and ....

 

Plox, gib your worked out idea for skill based matchmaking ( preferable without flaws plox! ). 

 

Wait, don't tell me your idea was 'having leagues and let people choose freely between them'?

 

 

Old gifs, but mildly amusing still. Is this like with submarines - 'they're impossible to implement in the game, it will never happen' because you can't think of a good idea how to?

The idea that you being able to choose between 2 or 3 random type games based on your involvement or 'skill' could alleviate some of the grief players experience. Some players have 'worked' hard to reach their 9-10 bb and feel they can't play it because of the economy. I'm not sure if you've seen this argument before. They come to this forum and complain and get the answer that they don't earn enough money because they're crap. Maybe they'd be happier if they could make better earnings against similarly skilled players. ...and the unicums wouldn't have to complain in forums or chat about borderhugging bbs. Maybe you too would feel inclined to play a casual tier 10 game once and awhile?

[Capra76]

 I'm fine with the doctrine of BB's being the counter to CA's and thus being able to deliver punishing damage to them but right now I'd argue things have gone just a tadsy bit too far.

 

I'm fine with the BB counter CA doctrine so long as something else counters BB, but with CV almost non-existent and DD getting nerfs with every patch I'd say the justification for BB being able to one-shot CA no longer exists.

[EsaTuunanen]

Could be a big buff for the Soviet cruisers, who've got terrible rudders and concealment, swapping detection range for the ability to dodge incoming fire might be a worthwhile trade for them.

Yeah, their thing isn't being stealthy, but using railgun trajectory to keep bombarding enemies from range...

While faster rudder helps most to avoid getting hit by BBs exactly at long range.

At shorter ranges cruisers simply won't ever outrun properly aimed BB AP salvo.

 

 

Cruisers need to be able to take the damage better instead. And buff their speed a touch maybe. By tiers 8 lots of BBs are only 1 or 2 knots slower than cruisers, removing a big element of cruiser advantage. Sometimes historical values need to be *tweaked* to make the game work.

Too much cruiser speed buff, at least universally, and destroyers will be forced to spam torps from max range instead of getting closer to better launch angles.

Some of them already meet cruisers faster than them.

Though especially USN cruisers are slowish considering they're not supposed to be long range snipers.

(while neither they're brawlers because lack of torps crippling ambush potential)

[mtm78]

 

Old gifs, but mildly amusing still. Is this like with submarines - 'they're impossible to implement in the game, it will never happen' because you can't think of a good idea how to?

The idea that you being able to choose between 2 or 3 random type games based on your involvement or 'skill' could alleviate some of the grief players experience. Some players have 'worked' hard to reach their 9-10 bb and feel they can't play it because of the economy. I'm not sure if you've seen this argument before. They come to this forum and complain and get the answer that they don't earn enough money because they're crap. Maybe they'd be happier if they could make better earnings against similarly skilled players. ...and the unicums wouldn't have to complain in forums or chat about borderhugging bbs. Maybe you too would feel inclined to play a casual tier 10 game once and awhile?

 

WG/Lesta is already addressing economy for top tiers, doesn't have to cater to lowest denominator at all. So no, I don't think a bad player should be playing tier X and getting the same economical results as a decent player just because he pressed a different button. I don't play tier X because of personal reasons which have nothing to do with the 'economy' of tier X ( more with the static bow on BB playstyle prevalent at those tiers ). 

 

It's like saying: PVE should give more XP and credits because I invest as much time as someone playing PVP. Which ofc would be utterly retarded because PVE doesn't take the same amount of effort, and 'time invested' is not something I find even close to being an argument in this.

 

I could post more gifs but the one's I'm thinking off might get me into trouble so .... 

 

;)

[Mister_Greek]

 

I could post more gifs but the one's I'm thinking off might get me into trouble so .... 

 

 

Do you have me in a gif?

 

That would be funny....

[loppantorkel]

WG/Lesta is already addressing economy for top tiers, doesn't have to cater to lowest denominator at all. So no, I don't think a bad player should be playing tier X and getting the same economical results as a decent player just because he pressed a different button. I don't play tier X because of personal reasons which have nothing to do with the 'economy' of tier X ( more with the static bow on BB playstyle prevalent at those tiers ). 

 

It's like saying: PVE should give more XP and credits because I invest as much time as someone playing PVP. Which ofc would be utterly retarded because PVE doesn't take the same amount of effort, and 'time invested' is not something I find even close to being an argument in this.

 

I could post more gifs but the one's I'm thinking off might get me into trouble so .... 

 

;)

I'm not saying all bad players need to play that casual mode and the skilled should play 'normal', but maybe there would be less complaining about bad players both when in casual and 'normal' games. Some bad plays are to be expected in casual and maybe the report 'poor player' button finally could have some functionality if bots or particularly bad players keep playing in the more competitive mode. There could be a relegation period of some day or two if you end up with too many reports over a short amount of time. Maybe there could be a slight reduction in earnings, repair and gained xp in casual mode.

[anonym_i2RxUTEMphjW]

 

Starting the game attacked by 2 torpedo and 1 bomber squad at the same time, avoiding torpedos puts me under 3 long range BB's fire and i survive just by luck - one guy, i think in New York or Konig, even wrote 'why my guns cannot kill one broadsided idiot', well, it's really easy to keep the angle and position in my situation, i am surely idiot... ok bad place, i am running back behind the island to our CVs that almost everyone abandoned on empty flank, suddenly all four enemy's DD's in rush attack, me not pro enough, dead after 4 minutes of desperately trying to keep alive and doing nothing in the end...

I know, l2p.

[mtm78]

 

Do you have me in a gif?

 

That would be funny....

 

 

 

I'm not saying all bad players need to play that casual mode and the skilled should play 'normal', but maybe there would be less complaining about bad players both when in casual and 'normal' games. Some bad plays are to be expected in casual and maybe the report 'poor player' button finally could have some functionality if bots or particularly bad players keep playing in the more competitive mode. There could be a relegation period of some day or two if you end up with too many reports over a short amount of time. Maybe there could be a slight reduction in earnings, repair and gained xp in casual mode.

 

You're moving from 'free choice' to being forced into lower leagues based on player reports, it's not really easy to comment on it if you keep changing the concept

 

As to the latter, being able to 'vote' people out of a leauge, it would just make people abuse such function. You can't give players these 'powers' without some safeguard against abuse  

[cro_pwr]

Starting the game attacked by 2 torpedo and 1 bomber squad at the same time, avoiding torpedos puts me under 3 long range BB's fire and i survive just by luck - one guy, i think in New York or Konig, even wrote 'why my guns cannot kill one broadsided idiot', well, it's really easy to keep the angle and position in my situation, i am surely idiot... ok bad place, i am running back behind the island to our CVs that almost everyone abandoned on empty flank, suddenly all four enemy's DD's in rush attack, me not pro enough, dead after 4 minutes of desperately trying to keep alive and doing nothing in the end...

I know, l2p.

 

First things first (from all that you wrote).

1) you got yourself in a bad situation

2) you were far away from the rest of your team (a big NO NO for a squishy cruiser)

3) your CV should follow the fleet and not stay alone at empty flank

4) you and your cv should be able to deal with some DDs

5) if your whole team was together and providing cover for each other, CV cannot strike any of you so easily, DDs cannot rush anyone without getting focused down and blown out of the water.

 

But, its a low tier game, you cannot expect people to do anything else but tunnel vision and shoot 1 thing they put their eyes on completely ignoring the rest of the map (happens in a high tier games as well sadly)

[anonym_i2RxUTEMphjW]

^^

As before, once again thanks for a nice reply to my post. But i start to think that you're too idealistic considering the current environment that a beginniner has to face while trying to learn cruiser driving.
Let's look again at that battle:
1) and 2) OK, i admit i could be misplaced a little, but i was trying to keep close enough to BBs while not losing the contact with own DDs. You know, support mode. Probably went too far from BBs, the thing is, that i for sure wasn't the first ship spotted by the lanes. They had turned to me.
Anyway, i took my punishment in form of 2/3 HP lost in the seconds. Then i decided to try to undo it a little and moved to the one place that seemed where i could be useful, and...
3) Yes they should. But i knew they wouldn't because i saw it enough times in those few battles i had, that they typically don't move untill DDs are torpedoing them. So i tried to be a cover, but...

4) should we? Should 2 CVs engaged in battle and a lonely cruiser be able to deal with 4 DDs coming from cover (Archipelago map, right flank)? maybe, i don't know, that's why i wrote that i wasn't pro enough. remember, i was the only cruiser in the team, and that's the problem. All our DD's of course went forward.
5) Yes, but it doesn't happen and i know since many games that i should only count at myself. The problem here again was that i was the ONLY ONE cruiser. The lone automatic target for EVERYONE in enemy's fleet that saw me.

And the thing is that i know i should learn more, the problem is the environment i have to learn in while in cruiser. I'll write it again, i started to play this game hoping to do the cruiser job: sinking enemy destroyers, supporting own ones, making flank raids on enemy's CVs etc. I am trying to get better in dodging, shooting, all those things. But what is current meta - and also your post - actually teaching me to do instead if there's actual typical game with 1-2CVs and 5BBs?
- glue to own BBs at the start so enemy's aircraft will not concentrate on you

- forget about own DDs as following them puts you in a NO NO situation

- as soon as enemy's BB have you in range, run away from own BB's and find a cover, forget about raids or close support

- concentrate on not getting killed and pray that your team will be good enough that you'll get some targets to burn at the end of the game when one single mistake doesn't have a big chance of getting you killed in a second.

This is how it looks like from a point of view of an average cruiser player at lower tier that tries to learn something and have fun. Not owning Zao or other burning machine to relax and use skills gained when playing cruiser was probably quite easier. And i have fun in my Bogatyr in low-level battles where there's one less thing to worry about (no planes), i have fun in my Kuma even if i am always dead, somehow always facing 3BBs on my flank - and one of them recently always seems to be a Kongo, but trying to get better and moving to higher tiers where i will be often 2 tiers down and BBs will shot me from even further seems like not worth the effort in this situation.

TL,DR: trying to learn a proper cruiser play in current meta is completly distorted; BBs+DDs+grumpy pros in their Zaos only soon.

[SerPurr]

.....

I know, l2p.

 

L2p? Nah:

 

1) You played a Cruiser

2) You played a rather mediocre Cruiser

3) If you'd played a rather good Cruiser, you'd have lasted at least 20 seconds longer

4) Don't play Cruisers

 

[mtm78]

This is how it looks like from a point of view of an average cruiser player at lower tier that tries to learn something and have fun. Not owning Zao or other burning machine to relax and use skills gained when playing cruiser was probably quite easier. And i have fun in my Bogatyr in low-level battles where there's one less thing to worry about (no planes), i have fun in my Kuma even if i am always dead, somehow always facing 3BBs on my flank - and one of them recently always seems to be a Kongo, but trying to get better and moving to higher tiers where i will be often 2 tiers down and BBs will shot me from even further seems like not worth the effort in this situation.

 

Lower tier BB's have worse dispersion and more glaring weaknesses which generally make lower tier cruisers a lot better at dealing with them then top tier CA's can deal with BB's ( Zao is an exception AND only then IF it can exploit its concealment advantage ). 

 

edit: the issue is the number of BB's per match, and as others have said, Karlsruhe is not the best ship to engage BB's ( broadside they take nice damage from your AP though ). Kuma's and Phoenix's are much better suited due to having reasonable HE and fire chance. 

[TheBigLanowski]

My recent experiences clearly beg to differ, the random as* citadels still happen out of nowhere while BBs camp at 19-22km. It is really fun and engaging to play CAs these days, DDs > CAs, BBs > CAs, wait defensive out CV > CAs (not speaking of DM and Hindenburg).

 

The amount of bullsh*t CA's have to put up with is pretty nice, fun and engaging for sure 

 

That pretty much nails it! Just played to day just for fun some St.t Luis / Bogatyr / Aurora, you don't have this kind of problems on this tier! You should avoid a 1 vs 1 with a BB but all in all you can do your job going for cruisers and destroyers without being blown out of the water instantly. A oneshot happens so rarely on this tier, it's almost on par with detonation. So refreshing!

[loppantorkel]

 

You're moving from 'free choice' to being forced into lower leagues based on player reports, it's not really easy to comment on it if you keep changing the concept

 

As to the latter, being able to 'vote' people out of a leauge, it would just make people abuse such function. You can't give players these 'powers' without some safeguard against abuse  

It's not a very difficult concept. You keep talking about leagues, while I've explained it as two modes. If you get 10 reports in a day, you can't play in normal mode for the rest of the day. A fairly difficult system to abuse in random MM. Another thing - in casual mode you can't play in divisions of three people - too much advantage.. Another goalpost moved...

[anonym_i2RxUTEMphjW]

 

Lower tier BB's have worse dispersion and more glaring weaknesses which generally make lower tier cruisers a lot better at dealing with them then top tier CA's can deal with BB's ( Zao is an exception AND only then IF it can exploit its concealment advantage ). 

 

edit: the issue is the number of BB's per match, and as others have said, Karlsruhe is not the best ship to engage BB's ( broadside they take nice damage from your AP though ). Kuma's and Phoenix's are much better suited due to having reasonable HE and fire chance. 

 

Heh, so it actually supports my attitude to not move to medium tiers as long as this MM meta will continue if i still want to have any fun in this game besides tanking in Nassau (as long as it lasts as there's less and less people to fight DDs and i have my nice brawls interrupted by concentrated torpedo salvos more and more often)

 

So what is Karlsruhe (and whole German CL line) actually good to in current meta? Seems i will just drop this line and finally try to get my situational awareness and reflexes even better moving to play some DDs in this place. They seem to be much more suited to the role i wanted to play in a cruiser than cruisers themselves. Hey, but i've heard they're getting nerfed as well. Sigh.

[Scawl_D_Balls]

I had a few games in my Phoenix and it seems fine? 

[Capra76]

I had a few games in my Phoenix and it seems fine? 

 

The change in BB power is very noticeable as you move from T4 to T5, especially with the current matchmaking.

 

As a T4 your main worry is the occasional Kongo, everything else is manageable.  Once you hit T5 and start finding yourself in frequent T7 matches, then everything is dangerous to you, so you go from worrying about 1 or 2 ships to all 5.

[Loran_Battle]

I'm seriously thinking of just not playing cruisers anymore.

 

Keep sticking your head in the sand, but with over half the teams being BBs cruisers are really pointless. Especially since most BB players just sit at max range. As a cruiser you don't always have the range. So you need to get closer. Hello citadels, even if you keep randomly turning everywhere, you will still lose 10k hp or so every volley.

 

But sure. WG, just keep telling yourselves everything is fine.

[mtm78]

So what is Karlsruhe (and whole German CL line) actually good to in current meta? Seems i will just drop this line and finally try to get my situational awareness and reflexes even better moving to play some DDs in this place. They seem to be much more suited to the role i wanted to play in a cruiser than cruisers themselves. Hey, but i've heard they're getting nerfed as well. Sigh.

 

I was 'struggeling' with Hipper recently, but I will push through at some point as I want Roon and Hindenburg. Anyway, Karlsruhe is very good anti cruiser cruiser imo, I did pretty good in her. And you can do good damage to BB's which are ignoring you. BUT, you don't want to get shot at, ever ( glass cannon ). This goes through to Yorck, where you actually get some armor. You will be able to bounce 155 and even 203 AP with some good angling, but anything other than the right angle and you're gone as your citadel is not that hard to hit. The thing I liked about Yorck is the HE being actually good. Nice alpha damage on the 210's and you got decent fire chance as well, enjoy it ( if you enjoy the HE spam meta ). If you get close to something and it's broadside, the AP will do wonders. At range the HE works better due to better arc's ( though you can sometimes get surprise plunging fire citadels with those arcs as well it's hard to hit ). Hipper, well it's fantastic against enemy cruisers which show broadside and it has really good AAA and usable torpedo's for those 'feck I am death anyway let's rush and get some damage in' kind of moments ( or.. you bait some BoringBoat around an island and he 'forgets' you have those fishes ). But angled cruisers are already pretty hard to deal with, let alone angled BB's due to bad HE. 

 

 

[DukeH4mm3r]

I'm seriously thinking of just not playing cruisers anymore.

 

Keep sticking your head in the sand, but with over half the teams being BBs cruisers are really pointless. Especially since most BB players just sit at max range. As a cruiser you don't always have the range. So you need to get closer. Hello citadels, even if you keep randomly turning everywhere, you will still lose 10k hp or so every volley.

 

But sure. WG, just keep telling yourselves everything is fine.

 

Same. I just can't see the point. More often than not you're one of only two cruisers on your team if you're lucky nowadays. Or just plain on your own! With BB's & DD's running the show. Barely a CV in sight too. Used to love my cruisers but now the only ones worth playing, or at least fun to play are tier 6 and below. They just can't compete with the camping/sniping play of BB's. I wouldn't be surprised if eventually, when the games become nothing but BB's that WG think about limit the number of BB's per team to something like 3. At least in high tier matches. But we'll see. For now, it's highly recommended, in my opinion not to play cruisers beyond tier 6. 

[Loran_Battle]

 

Same. I just can't see the point. More often than not you're one of only two cruisers on your team if you're lucky nowadays. Or just plain on your own! With BB's & DD's running the show. Barely a CV in sight too. Used to love my cruisers but now the only ones worth playing, or at least fun to play are tier 6 and below. They just can't compete with the camping/sniping play of BB's. I wouldn't be surprised if eventually, when the games become nothing but BB's that WG think about limit the number of BB's per team to something like 3. At least in high tier matches. But we'll see. For now, it's highly recommended, in my opinion not to play cruisers beyond tier 6. 

 

I think they already have a minor cap in place. Just look at the queue. Its usuall something like 200+ BBs, 0-1 CV, 2 cruisers and a few DDs. But no, we just listen to all the BBs complaining about everything.

 

 

[Damanta]

 

I think they already have a minor cap in place. Just look at the queue. Its usuall something like 200+ BBs, 0-1 CV, 2 cruisers and a few DDs. But no, we just listen to all the BBs complaining about everything.

 

 

 

MM seems to limit BBs to 5 per side as far as I have been able to observe today.