RN CLs With New AP

[fnord_disc]

Okay, I figured that a new thread could be opened now that the preliminary changes were leaked. For the sake of it I will repost it from wows.ga, and God bless the Chinese.

 

 Changes to AP shells. All tiers except tier 5 (Emerald) will have the HE withdrawn. AP's standard damage will be cut in half while the AP's ricochet angle increases from 45 degrees to 60 degrees and the shell must ricochet at 75 degrees. the minimum penetration required for fuse activation decreased from 25mm to --mm.

Black Swan now uses the Training AP shells (Damage: ---) with increased weight. The shell shares the same ricochet angle with the rest of RN CLs.

Tier 9, Tier 10 (Neptune, Minotaur) add an new AP ammunition. Its muzzle velocity, corresponding to history's test data, is --m/s. Yet this ammo hasn't been applied into the game.

 

Now, I've removed a bunch of numbers here because I don't want the discussion to be about numbers.

 

We can summarize that the British line would offensively (let's ignore the speed boost) turn into a line with AP that almost never ricochets and has a short fuse, but also has relatively poor AP damage. I've seen a lot of opinions that have been critical of this and called it underpowered, but I don't think so:

 

Destroyer targets: A low-dmg AP shell landing penetration hits on a destroyer does comparable damage to a standard HE shell hit and unlike HE it can also hit slight below the waterline -> larger valid target. The effective damage on destroyers is probably about the same as an American heavy cruiser.

 

Cruiser targets: The ricochet angles will punch through almost any angle and even most bow angles and the low detonator could also lead to penetrations on the superstructure. The effective damage output is probably about as good as an HE-heavy ship. The damage output on broadside targets would be lower because of the lower AP citadel damage, but they would get citadel penetrations at more angles. It should be strong against cruisers.

 

Battleship targets: Several options to penetrate the superstructure or the bow.

 

I don't think this concept is underpowered if the shells have sufficient penetration to go through angles reliably even at 10km. Maybe the shells you're looking at right now can't do that, but Lesta can simply buff the shells. I wouldn't worry about a question of numbers so early in the (re-)design process.

 

My problem is that this concept doesn't really improve the game. German battleships were a clear step forward because they emphasize closer ranges, but these cruisers would be essentially ambushers for other cruisers and destroyer hunters. Their concealment and reliable AP allows them to do that, and their improved repair would allow them to repair most of the damage afterwards.

 

But this fundamentally changes nothing about the utterly silly dominance of battleships. A battleship could repair almost all the damage caused by these AP shells and, unlike a cruiser, it can actually mitigate the damage from the shells. If AP shells never autobounce, then the only reliable way to reduce damage from them is... pure armor thickness. If a cruiser angles against you in a British CL, so what? Don't shoot the turrets, don't shoot the belt armor, all the rest is an easy penetration for consistent and painful damage.

 

But a battleship can actually reduce the damage by offering side armor higher than the penetration of the shell and wriggling the bow. The British CL would have to either shoot the superstructure or try to hit the bow, and both these sections are easily depleted and especially the forward section of the bow can be tricky to hit. Not to mention that some battleships have armored bows. I don't think the ability to stealth torp at the higher tiers can really compensate for what is probably going to be unreliable damage output.

 

To illustrate what I mean, I have two ships here:

 

Angled Mogami Target

 

 

The entire ship would be an easy penetration except for the thin strip of yellow belt armor. Everything else would produce consistent salvos of 3-4k damage with rapid-firing guns.

 

Angled Kongo Target

 

 

The entire belt is too thick (masked by torpedo belt here), the casemate area above the belt is also too thick, the turrets are too thick and there is a strip of armor at the center of the bow that's also too thick. The only parts you could penetrate are the superstructure and the upper bow area, and both of those can be tricky to hit if the Kongo wriggles. This is also difficult for HE spammers, but at least they can get fires.

 

I don't think these cruisers will clearly be underpowered. But I can't see how they improve the fundamental issues that the game currently has.

[Dagon_NOR]

Well, i get the feeling, that they are trying to go for a HE spam ship but without the fire. If it works it will be fine with me, but if the surviveability is low they should have kept the smoke.

I don't mind smoke, it gives the players a reason to rush. Sure it can lead to more camping, but my guess would be that the people would start rushing smoke if they experience that it helps to win and get more xp.

[Shirakami_Kon]

First they withdraw AP from tier 1 son new players learn even less from the start as if they proved they learned that much in lower tiers. Now RN CL get sci-fi AP that... ... I can't almost understand what... well, in fact I do but... ... nevermind... I understand it would work, but I'm done. So done.

[Shirakami_Kon]

I may get a warning here, but well, I'll take the risk, I really need to say this and I really think this should be discussed.

 

So... Basically if I understood all of this well... this "RN AP limited edition" will have miraculous no bounces and with such a low fuze that except on really good plates of armor they will get penetrations almost always at the cost of reduced damage to compensate for that.

 

And my question is... Where the [EDITED] is the little remaining of SKILL required to... well, just pew pew pew pew pew everything at all tiers like if everything is the old tier 1 in everyones first matches of the game, where when we managed to figure out how to lead to enemy ships and score hits and that's all we needed? Because that's all whan RN CL are going to need it seems. They won't need any sort of understanding about how enemy ships could angle against them and switch between AP and HE in response, because... THEY WON'T EVEN BE ABLE TO DO THAT!! Because... oh my god, it would be a shame if the poor BB would need any sort of SKILL in learning not to waste the repair on just one fire, that the heal can recover all damage caused by fire, so they're fine letting just 1 fire burn for a while. No, f*uck that, too complex, this game is for id...... agh... I really don't want any problems or be banned but...

 

This is... This is pitiful... I'm fine if they don't know how to balance some ships... I understand there's always problems between different ship classes. We all can complain about DD nerfs... CV nerf... how AA has gone nuts at high tiers specially... but this is just too much, that has done it for me.

 

Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one that struggles to get a team that (sorry, maybe it's offensive, excuse me, I don't try to offend anyone here, but there's only this way to put it) make conect two brain cells together and manage a good performance in one battle. And I know there are awesome players out there, a lot. I'm far from being the greatest player too, but... I tend to look stats. My own stats for example. I enjoy learning the mechanics of the game, reading guides here in the forums and playing the game and try what I learn day by day. And I understand that theres tons of people that don't give a f*ck about that and that WG has to make the game playable for that people too, but there are limits.

 

In short, what I mean for those who won't read all of that is that I fell like this game is killing all the skill involved on it, like they even get paid for that and that I find that a shame, that's all... but well... I guess time will speak for itself and we'll see what happens. New ships are always welcomed and nice to see, but if they need such a mechanic to be ingame, as much as I'd like to see the RN ingame I'd prefer they don't make it before killing all the skill involved to play like that. That's all I needed to say...

 

Sorry for the long post...

[creamgravy]

Destroyer targets: A low-dmg AP shell landing penetration hits on a destroyer does comparable damage to a standard HE shell hit and unlike HE it can also hit slight below the waterline -> larger valid target. The effective damage on destroyers is probably about the same as an American heavy cruiser.

 

HE explodes underwater too ...and with a 5-6 meter radius for a 6" shell.   HE does solid damage to the 6-10mm superstructure section of a destroyer, will this new AP overpen it with a 12mm fuse?

If they're going to buff AP to match simplified HE mechanics then just use HE. 

 

[aquiles7389]

Basically HE without fire...utterly disgusting.

Somehow I knew WG would stop the so far good job and find a way to rekt the RN line (postponed for sooooo long), we can manage the low armour, or the poor shell arc/speed, but this is just silly (to say the least).

We can not have a decent RN line because....reasons.(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻

 

Also, I trained the RN skipper to spam HE and then this happens....

Y U DO DIS WG ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

[Nechrom]

I have no idea why they feel the need to magic up some new completely made up mechanics for a single line of ships that just serves to add yet another exception to a growing list of rules for the game.

What makes the RN CLs so much different from the German or the Russian ones, that they need this? Gunboat DDs spam 130mm shells at tier 9-10 and have no problem following the current established framework for how the game works, while at the same time topping the WR charts.

Is it that WG think they need smoke for that to work?

In my opinion, the only thing the RN CLs need for them to work at higher tiers is speed, maneuverability and good gun handling/ballistics.

 

Having only one type of ammo that works in every situation seems like a horrible idea to me. Boring and with a high probability to be unbalanced, in either direction.

[LilJumpa]

Basically HE without fire...utterly disgusting.

Somehow I knew WG would stop the so far good job and find a way to rekt the RN line (postponed for sooooo long), we can manage the low armour, or the poor shell arc/speed, but this is just silly (to say the least).

We can not have a decent RN line because....reasons.(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻

 

Also, I trained the RN skipper to spam HE and then this happens....

Y U DO DIS WG ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

 

This is exactly the post and attitude caused by these discussions based on very early leaks.  People got all hysterical about smoke on RN cruisers and now they get all hysterical about the AP.

 

The comments you can see on reddit (and you will see here) are 10% constructive discussion about possible effects (as fnord_discs post)  and 90% that crap above.

[Nechrom]

 

This is exactly the post and attitude caused by these discussions based on very early leaks.  People got all hysterical about smoke on RN cruisers and now they get all hysterical about the AP.

 

The comments you can see on reddit (and you will see here) are 10% constructive discussion about possible effects (as fnord_discs post)  and 90% that crap above.

 

I still don't see the harm in it, as opposed to not having any discussion about it at all.

Especially since we're not really talking about exact numbers yet, which naturally might change as we get closer to release. But just the base idea.

 

If people feel better freaking out a little at early leaks, then lets them.

Who knows, one time it might actually help nip a really bad decision in the bud.

[ColonelPete]

Removal of HE is not a good idea.

They could go the german way. Good AP, bad HE.

 

I am sure we will get this to work, but I do not like that the ships basicly have a seperate mechanic from all other ships. Something I do not like with german BB HE.

[xXx_Blogis_xXx]

hope they do better arc or i not gona grind these lolantas

[BlueMoon51]

Battleship targets: Several options to penetrate the superstructure or the bow.

 

Are you [edited]serous???????? lets for a moment assume that the Battleship simply does nothing just sits there how long with low damage AP do you think it would take to kill him and heaven forbid if you get into secondary gun range! in fact I would bet that as now conceived most German battleships could sink a RN cruiser without themselves firing a shot(simply focus firing the secondary guns)

  

[anonym_MfZ6T7iwWpUC]

 

Are you [edited]serous???????? lets for a moment assume that the Battleship simply does nothing just sits there how long with low damage AP do you think it would take to kill him and heaven forbid if you get into secondary gun range! in fact I would bet that as now conceived most German battleships could sink a RN cruiser without themselves firing a shot(simply focus firing the secondary guns)

  

You sir, are an idiot. Nobody is trying to suggest  they could sink a BB with the new AP rounds. Seriously. Its about trying to give a different sort of gameplay, and not more of the same cruiser playstyle we currently have. Only time will tell, if that theory will work in practice.

 

No cruiser is going to go toe to toe with a BB on its own, unless it either has no choice, or its going in to finish one off.

[BlueMoon51]

You sir, are an idiot. Nobody is trying to suggest  they could sink a BB with the new AP rounds. Seriously. Its about trying to give a different sort of gameplay, and not more of the same cruiser playstyle we currently have. Only time will tell, if that theory will work in practice.

 

No cruiser is going to go toe to toe with a BB on its own, unless it either has no choice, or its going in to finish one off.

 

so what you are saying is that if there are only 2 ships left one on either team if your in a cruiser you should just give up. EVERY higher tier cruiser currently in the game that I have played(with care)and that would be almost all but the Soviet ones can take on a BB certainly one tier below (although the US ones aren't great at it). No British cruiser would have that option.

[ColonelPete]

Every ship can take on every other ship.

Th chances of success are just different.

[BlueMoon51]

Every ship can take on every other ship.

Th chances of success are just different.

 

How would you feel using a RN cruiser as now conceived against a battleship???

[ColonelPete]

The primary use of cruisers is to kill DD and support BB.

I would not take on a BB alone unless forced into the situation. And then I would make the most of it.

[Sonic_157]

Okay, I figured that a new thread could be opened now that the preliminary changes were leaked. For the sake of it I will repost it from wows.ga, and God bless the Chinese.

 

 

 

Actually, there are already 4 pages of posts talking about the new AP changes in the other thread.

No need for a new one. Very good analysis in your post though.

 

 

 

 

[BlueMoon51]

The primary use of cruisers is to kill DD and support BB.

I would not take on a BB alone unless forced into the situation. And then I would make the most of it.

 

As I see it vb clearly the RN cruisers won't be great DD hunters due to not being able to do module damage(and no fire)and negligible assistance in supporting other ships against BB's Although I guess if you had a gun to my head and asked me what role these ships would have (other than hunting each other)I would say DD hunters.

[Spellfire40]

It dont matters no HE means no dot. No dot means you can only damage BBs when the also can shoot back. And a BB does only needs to be lucky once agist CLs

[aquiles7389]

 

This is exactly the post and attitude caused by these discussions based on very early leaks.  People got all hysterical about smoke on RN cruisers and now they get all hysterical about the AP.

 

The comments you can see on reddit (and you will see here) are 10% constructive discussion about possible effects (as fnord_discs post)  and 90% that crap above.

 

1. You are right, this is a discussion based on an early leak, no evidence the changes will remain as they are now. With that as a background, we are just writing what we think/feel about said changes...We are not talking about anything else. People can say anything they want and actually that might even help the developers by giving them a clue about how unpopular this change will be if released. After all, forums are to discuss the game...Now is time to say what we think about what we know about the changes, discussing a constructive way comes later when official changes are announced.

 

2. All hysterical....Yeah, I destroyed my computer in rage and jumped from the window of my building...Dude, I don't think "hysterical" people put emojis on their comments.

 

3. Constructive discussion about possible effects...Why bother??? The changes are not even official yet. We are just saying what we think about them from the thing we know, that's all.

 

4. Calling another forum user's comment crap is not nice dude. That only displays poor response skill from a limited mind. After all, this is an open forum where people can say what they think as long as they respect other people comments (like you didn't). I'm sure a "constructive" discussion will take place when an official statement will be announced, on the meantime the only thing that we can do is to share our own opinion (maybe even the developers might read them and change their minds).

 

5. And lastly, if you disagree with somebody's opinion, you are not obligated to answer (keep scrolling maybe?), and even less insulting the other person.

 

Hope I helped you being a better forum user

[Admiral_noodle]

Valid discussion but all speculation. Another "wait and see"

 

See this is why leaks and early information usually goes badly. People get a bit of info then start to get "hysterical"

[Ryuuteimaru]

With DD it's module damage that kills them so without HE those cruisers will have a hard time killing them before they just stealth up and escape.

 

 And historically the British 6 inch guns had pretty bad AP performance so unless they seriously buff it's performance in game it's going to struggle against broadside moderately armoured cruisers never mind Battleships.

 

[shockinhockin]

So where has this infomation come from? Sounds all rather awful but I can't seem to see the source of the quotes to have a read myself

[LilJumpa]

Basically HE without fire...utterly disgusting.

Somehow I knew WG would stop the so far good job and find a way to rekt the RN line (postponed for sooooo long), we can manage the low armour, or the poor shell arc/speed, but this is just silly (to say the least).

We can not have a decent RN line because....reasons.(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻

 

Also, I trained the RN skipper to spam HE and then this happens....

Y U DO DIS WG ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

 

 

1. You are right, this is a discussion based on an early leak, no evidence the changes will remain as they are now. With that as a background, we are just writing what we think/feel about said changes...We are not talking about anything else. People can say anything they want and actually that might even help the developers by giving them a clue about how unpopular this change will be if released. After all, forums are to discuss the game...Now is time to say what we think about what we know about the changes, discussing a constructive way comes later when official changes are announced.

 

2. All hysterical....Yeah, I destroyed my computer in rage and jumped from the window of my building...Dude, I don't think "hysterical" people put emojis on their comments.

 

3. Constructive discussion about possible effects...Why bother??? The changes are not even official yet. We are just saying what we think about them from the thing we know, that's all.

 

4. Calling another forum user's comment crap is not nice dude. That only displays poor response skill from a limited mind. After all, this is an open forum where people can say what they think as long as they respect other people comments (like you didn't). I'm sure a "constructive" discussion will take place when an official statement will be announced, on the meantime the only thing that we can do is to share our own opinion (maybe even the developers might read them and change their minds).

 

5. And lastly, if you disagree with somebody's opinion, you are not obligated to answer (keep scrolling maybe?), and even less insulting the other person.

 

Hope I helped you being a better forum user

 

They are leaks from a source that has not the best reputation in being accurate and clickbaiting like there is no tomorrow.

Those leaks maybe represent current test ideas Lesta/WG does not want to go public just yet. That's why they have a strict NDA on the CCs and Supertesters.

 

If you followed the buildup of the german BBs and the amount of negative emotions from people, who do not regularly check the sources or read on the forums and are taking everything they read for granted, maybe you would understand my reply. Your post is the perfect example for thousands of posts. Maybe you wrote that in a sarcastic way and don't mean it. Most people do mean it and just rage away at thing that are being tested. Nothing constructive about that. Some are like OP (who has the knowledge to judge this), most are just acting like crybabies. 

I have yet read one of these leak discussions without shaking my head in disbelief about some answers there. They usually turn into a sethpool filled with hate speeches regarding WG.

 

These discussions only help turning these forums into the WoT forums faster.