Russian Cruiser Tier 3 - Bogatyr gun module "upgrade"

[NoCoGX]

 

Hi

 

I am not sure if this is a bug and if anyone else has noticed this - could not find any topics about it. 

As you can see in the screenshot, the Bogatyr Tier 3 Russian cruiser has a gun "upgrade" that makes the weapon weaker in every way. According to wikipedia this gun change is historically accurate ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogatyr-class_cruiser ). While that may be, I fail the see the benefit in terms of game play. Why would I spend XP & money to decreases my stats? Am I missing something here? Please enlighten me. I really want to understand it.

 

Thanks in advance.

[MrFingers]

It's not that the stats say that it's weaker, that it is weaker in gameplay. When you upgrade the Clemson's guns, you'll get a +1 in artillery rating, yet you doubled the guns.

 

For the Bogatyr: you indeed go to smaller calibre guns, but they fire faster, and have a much flatter arc, and are thus easier for penetrating armour. With them bein 130mm, they also benefit the fullest from Basic Firing Training/Advanced Firing Training/Expert Marksman. Don't forget that in WoWS, "upgrades" don't always mean a downright "it's better", it often is "a change of flavour".

[Allied_Winter]

I changes the shell arc! So with the 130mm guns a flatter shell arc is possible. Also (if you have a 10pt. captain) the 130mm Bogatyr can increase her main battery range with AFT.

 

 

Greetings

[ColonelPete]

No, nobody ever saw that... *sigh*

 

There is a ship section...

[puxflacet]

Don't forget that in WoWS, "upgrades" don't always mean a downright "it's better", it often is "a change of flavour".

 

i wish this was the upgrade way, but more often upgrade means just "the better" and makes the older configurations just one time grind event

[NoCoGX]

 

Thank you for the helpful answers. Since I fire HE as cruiser most of the time, I will not get this upgrade - since it promotes AP shell play if I understood correctly. 

 

Mr Finger is saying that the 130mm guns fire faster but the reload speed is actually 1s slower. Do you mean the shell velocity is higher? If that is the case, the mouse over info box of the upgrade should mention this but it does not. It would be nice to have more detail shown to make an informed decision.

 

I must agree with puxflacet. This is the first upgrade I have seen (I am not that far I admit) that actually changes the "flavor". All the others had flat better stats over the original configuration and were a no brainer - you simply needed them to win. Also the Clemson that Mr Finger gave as example, still has more guns and +1 Arty rating. So it is objectively better from my point of view. 

 

[Allied_Winter]

If you click on the upgrade and then hover with the mouse over your current artillery, you see the changes the module will bring. There the muzzle velocity is listed.

 

Greetings

[Procrastes]

I believe that the 130 mm gun turrets turn significantly faster than the 152 mm ones.* So much so, that it easily offsets the advantage of having the bigger guns mounted.

 

* Edit: If the captain has the 'Expert Marksman' skill, as explained in post 18 below. Thanks to byronicasian for clarifying this point!

[NoCoGX]

Both guns turn with the same speed - evident when using the helpful tip from Allied_Winter. But indeed the shells fly a lot faster & have 1% more fire chance... mmh, still not sure if I want this upgrade or not. I think maybe yes since I imagine it would be easier to kill DDs with it. The lower damage does not matter so much for DD but you'd hit more often thanks to the faster projectiles. For cruisers I would then maybe indeed use AP trying to mag or citadel them. Would be useful to have faster shell type switching captains skill for that.

[lup3s]

Thank you for the helpful answers. Since I fire HE as cruiser most of the time, I will not get this upgrade - since it promotes AP shell play if I understood correctly. 

 

Why would a lower calibre gun promote the usage of AP shells?

If anything, it promotes the usage of HE shells...

So if you mainly use HE on your Bogatyr, I strongly advice you to get this upgrade.

 

Would be useful to have faster shell type switching captains skill for that.

 

Never take this captain skill, it's almost completely useless.

[EdiJo]

There is absolutely no problem hitting with Bogatyr 130mm guns at their max range (13.2km I think). Lots of helpless Nassaus & Kaisers learned about this in flames 

The problem is, some maps are just too small ponds for such shooting...

[ColonelPete]

 

Why would a lower calibre gun promote the usage of AP shells?

Because it has a lot better penetration and you hit more often?

[lup3s]

Because it has a lot better penetration and you hit more often?

 

a 130mm AP shell has higher penetration than a 152mm AP shell?

 

that's weird.. in my experience with the Bogatyr, I could hit citadels more consistently with the 152mm guns than with the 130mm guns

but I could be mistaken..

 

does this also mean that 152mm AP shells have higher penetration than 203mm AP shells?

then why even use the 203mm guns on the Mogami .. ?

 

[Durin_VI]

The upgrade is a lot better as it turns faster (needed because with Bogatyr you have to dance) and you can get AFT; the extra range makes that you can fire at BBS (tier 3) and the St Louis while they can't hit back. Add a touch of DE and you can easily do 60-80k damage and, while causing fires all over the map, you can take out every DD in game

 

 

[aboomination]

Bigger != better - looking at you, Murrica (St Louis)!

[ColonelPete]

 

a 130mm AP shell has higher penetration than a 152mm AP shell?

 

that's weird.. in my experience with the Bogatyr, I could hit citadels more consistently with the 152mm guns than with the 130mm guns

but I could be mistaken..

 

does this also mean that 152mm AP shells have higher penetration than 203mm AP shells?

then why even use the 203mm guns on the Mogami .. ?

 

 

Basic physics:

Kinetic Energy = 0.5 * mass * velocity * velocity

 

Which part is more important for kinetic energy? Mass or velocity?

[NoCoGX]

Why would a lower calibre gun promote the usage of AP shells?

If anything, it promotes the usage of HE shells...

So if you mainly use HE on your Bogatyr, I strongly advice you to get this upgrade.

 

Never take this captain skill, it's almost completely useless.

 

I understood Mr Fingers info below in the way that AP profits from the upgrade since the shell has flatter trajectory and higher velocity so penetrates armor better. But indeed now that I have gotten the upgrade, it lends itself more or at least the same to HE shells. +1% fire chance and HE projectiles get even more velocity than AP with the upgrade.

 

I skipped the captains skill - after giving it some thought I considered it indeed pointless.

 

It's not that the stats say that it's weaker, that it is weaker in gameplay. When you upgrade the Clemson's guns, you'll get a +1 in artillery rating, yet you doubled the guns.

 

For the Bogatyr: you indeed go to smaller calibre guns, but they fire faster, and have a much flatter arc, and are thus easier for penetrating armour. With them bein 130mm, they also benefit the fullest from Basic Firing Training/Advanced Firing Training/Expert Marksman. Don't forget that in WoWS, "upgrades" don't always mean a downright "it's better", it often is "a change of flavour".

 

The upgrade does not alter the turning speed of the gun at all. It is still the same as before, also the range is the same I think. But it is very noticeable that the shell is flying much faster now. In my first match I could not hit anything since I was used to the former speed and all shots landed in front of the target. Once I got used to it, I started enjoying the benefits of the faster projectile very much. Good upgrade. 

Also the guns are in closed turrets now - so my crew is in a dry place during a storm 

 

The upgrade is a lot better as it turns faster (needed because with Bogatyr you have to dance) and you can get AFT; the extra range makes that you can fire at BBS (tier 3) and the St Louis while they can't hit back. Add a touch of DE and you can easily do 60-80k damage and, while causing fires all over the map, you can take out every DD in game

 

 

 

[byronicasian]

The upgrade does not alter the turning speed of the gun at all. It is still the same as before, also the range is the same I think. But it is very noticeable that the shell is flying much faster now. In my first match I could not hit anything since I was used to the former speed and all shots landed in front of the target. Once I got used to it, I started enjoying the benefits of the faster projectile very much. Good upgrade. 

 

Also the guns are in closed turrets now - so my crew is in a dry place during a storm 

 

The caliber of the upgraded guns (being 130mm, aka. less than 139mm) allows it to take greater advantage to the "Expert Marksman" and "BFT" skills. Hence making them traverse faster.

[lup3s]

 

Basic physics:

Kinetic Energy = 0.5 * mass * velocity * velocity

 

Which part is more important for kinetic energy? Mass or velocity?

 

I understand.

But could you explain me why it's easier (in-game) to get citadel hits with the 152mm guns, compared to the 130mm guns?

Or with the 203mm guns, compared to the 152mm guns?

[Verence196]

 

I understand.

But could you explain me why it's easier (in-game) to get citadel hits with the 152mm guns, compared to the 130mm guns?

Or with the 203mm guns, compared to the 152mm guns?

 

Because larger calibre usually equals more energy. That means a larger calibre shell can penetrate more armor than a smaller one. Citadels are the most heavily armored parts of ships - thus a larger calibre usually cause more citadel hits.

[lup3s]

 

Because bigger calibre usually equals more energy. That means the bigger shell can usually penetrate more armor - and thus cause more citadels.

 

->

lup3s, on 12 September 2016 - 03:39 PM, said:

Why would a lower calibre gun promote the usage of AP shells?

 

Because it has a lot better penetration and you hit more often?

 

 

Basic physics:

Kinetic Energy = 0.5 * mass * velocity * velocity

 

Which part is more important for kinetic energy? Mass or velocity?

 

 

 

so which is it now?

[Namolis]

They do not reload faster* and they do not do more damage. They have flatter arcs, so they are a bit easier to land, but if you're comfortable reading the movements of your targets and manage to hit the same number of shells even whey your target is moving about, they are not better*.

 

*UNTIL: you get the Basic Firing Training and Advanced Firing Training captain skills. Those skills help the smaller guns on this ship, but it isn't worth it if you intend to sell her and keep your captain for the grind ahead because starting with Kirov, those two skills are a lot less useful.

[Verence196]

 

->

 

 

 

 

so which is it now?

 

All those three explanations are the same. Bigger shell = better penetration. =)

[lup3s]

 

All those three explanations are the same. Bigger shell = better penetration. =)

 

I understand that both mass and velocity contribute to the penetration, but you're not saying the same as ColonelPete.

 

I stated that a lower calibre gun doesn't promote the usage of AP shells, as I thought a lower calibre AP shell has less penetration.

ColonelPete stated that the lower calibre AP shells have higher penetration due to their increased velocity. -> lower calibre AP shells are better

You state that the higher calibre AP shells have higher penetration due to their bigger size (~mass). -> higher calibre AP shells are better

 

So I ask again, which is it? Which AP shells have the highest penetration? The 130mm ones or the 152mm ones?

[Verence196]

Fair enough. I didn't read your post closely enough. My apologies.

 

My earlier post was intended as a rule of thumb answer, since you included a question about guns not available to the Bogatyr. A larger calibre usually equals more energy, and thus more penetration.

 

But things can be more complicated, and the Bogatyr is a good example.

 

Shell velocity is an important part of calculating energy. Usually the velocity difference between calibres arent great enough to negate the effect of firing a heavier shell, bit it is in the Bogatyr case. The 130s should have more energy, and thus penetrate better. The flatter firing arc should also make it easier to hit an enemy at right angles, thus avoiding ricochets and angling issues. That could work against you, though. A higher firing arc, such as that of the 152s, can much more easily strike deck armor. Deck/top armor is almost always significantly thinner than belt/side armor, and is thus more easily penetrated.

 

Yet it gets more complicated. A lighter shell will loose velocity quicker than a heavier shell. Penetration value for the 130 should therefore drop off more quickly than for the 152. At a certain range, the 152 might thus again become the more penetrative shell. I do not know what that range is, though. It might not be an issue at all at t3, since battles there take place at fairly short ranges.

 

Finally there is no rule that a larger calibre automatically means a heavier shell - although that's usually the case.

 

My guess is that for the Bogatyr the 130 is probably the better in most situations. I certainly prefer it. It all comes down to you, though. AP chance is as much about hitting the right spot (angle and thickness of armor), and that is a question both of skill and personal preference.

 

Confused enough? =)