Royal Navy Cruiser line

[Hanszeehock]

 

Alright. A lot of players just feel that one needs to relearn and adjust to this game at each step when going up the tiers.

 

Agree. A more experienced player will do a lot better in Belfast obviously. Although Combat Hamster has 5.8k battles in co-op that experience is not the same as in randoms. 

[piritskenyer]

If the Belfast is the same ship she was a week-and-a-half ago, I'll just say this: WG has me for a guaranteed customer. I divisioned with ST's who were sailing her, and when played well, that ship is a freaking monster. The smoke can be a team asset as well, not just a personal one. 

[Ksielvin]

If the Belfast is the same ship she was a week-and-a-half ago, I'll just say this: WG has me for a guaranteed customer. I divisioned with ST's who were sailing her, and when played well, that ship is a freaking monster. The smoke can be a team asset as well, not just a personal one. 

 

They are now on recent record for saying they don't like smoked battleships shooting invisibly:

 

6. We do not like firing from invisibility. Destroyers firing from smoke are fine, but not battleships. We are working to change the gameplay.

 

That's exactly what we'll be doing for next ranked season though.

[Combat_Hamster]

 

Agree. A more experienced player will do a lot better in Belfast obviously. Although Combat Hamster has 5.8k battles in co-op that experience is not the same as in randoms. 

 

 

Alright. A lot of players just feel that one needs to relearn and adjust to this game at each step when going up the tiers.

thank you...I did  go and  play  her  with  quite  strict  objectives  in mind..how  tanky is she?  What is  the  HE/AP like?  Can  you hit anything  at  max  range?  So  my priorities  were specific.   Other  people'  priorities  may  be radically different,  and  she may  ideally suit  how  they play. The gun issue was important as  tiers 6-9 have the same  guns.

[Origin47]

In my opinion, the Royal Navy CLs should follow the german trend: good AP, bad HE and beginning with the tier 6, when the german CLs get "defensive aa", the RN ones should get the "speed boost". With the "speed boost" activated, they should be fastest cruisers, but when not activated, the slowest.

Also, the detectability should be IJN level or even a bit better and their torpedoes should launch normally, not one at a time.

 

 

LE: @Combat_Hamster

I understand. I think that, concerning RN CLs, WG is trying way too hard to make them different.

I like variety on a "national" level, but nothing too major.

[Combat_Hamster]

In my opinion, the Royal Navy CLs should follow the german trend: good AP, bad HE and beginning with the tier 6, when the german CLs get "defensive aa", the RN ones should get the "speed boost". With the "speed boost" activated, they should be fastest cruisers, but when not activated, the slowest.

Also, the detectability should be IJN level or even a bit better and their torpedoes should launch normally, not one at a time.

 

I  would agree  with most of  that..I think  you have  two warring  factors here...'game balance'  and market perception'.  I expected  the ~RN  cruisers  to  be  decent  all rounders..nothing flash,  like  US  cruisers really  with  decent torps  and  a bit less AA.  I  expected  Japanese  cruisers to be very torpedo orientated ( this being a  favoured weapon ),  German  cruisers  to  have good AP  but a  bit  fragile,  and Italian  ships  to be fast  but fragile ( with  some exceptions, the last  two groups  of  Condittieri  and  the Zaras,  which I think would rip a Hipper to pieces ).  'Game balance'  is fine..in a broad sweeping  view... but in trying to instill  a 'national trait' you are at risk of  running against  'market perception'..so  even if  you get it  right in terms of overall game  balance, in the  eyes of the market  you will have messed  up.  The  Sinclair C5  and polythene cat litter tray liners..great ideas in theory..don't  work in practice...

[Comrad_StaIin]

 

I  would agree  with most of  that..I think  you have  two warring  factors here...'game balance'  and market perception'.  I expected  the ~RN  cruisers  to  be  decent  all rounders..nothing flash,  like  US  cruisers really  with  decent torps  and  a bit less AA.  I  expected  Japanese  cruisers to be very torpedo orientated ( this being a  favoured weapon ),  German  cruisers  to  have good AP  but a  bit  fragile,  and Italian  ships  to be fast  but fragile ( with  some exceptions, the last  two groups  of  Condittieri  and  the Zaras,  which I think would rip a Hipper to pieces ).  'Game balance'  is fine..in a broad sweeping  view... but in trying to instill  a 'national trait' you are at risk of  running against  'market perception'..so  even if  you get it  right in terms of overall game  balance, in the  eyes of the market  you will have messed  up.  The  Sinclair C5  and polythene cat litter tray liners..great ideas in theory..don't  work in practice...

 

you are going to like the French cruisers: Slow and Fragile

[lup3s]

is it true RN CLs won't have HE? (except T5 and premiums)

 

[Comrad_StaIin]

is it true RN CLs won't have HE? (except T5 and premiums)

 

 

for now yes

[Origin47]

Until you see an article on the main page, nothing is true or false. For now it's just going back and forth to the drawing board.

 

[Combat_Hamster]

 

you are going to like the French cruisers: Slow and Fragile

Yes  but the  cuisine  and conversation is unsurpassed..........actually  Algerie  will be  good.....

[Comrad_StaIin]

Yes  but the  cuisine  and conversation is unsurpassed..........actually  Algerie  will be  good.....

 

but to get to that (and maybe the St Louis) you will have to suffer through giant unamored slow turds

 

this is the St Louis I am talking about btw

 an autoloading 9x8" cruiser

 

[Admiral_H_Nelson]

 

but to get to that (and maybe the St Louis) you will have to suffer through giant unamored slow turds

 

this is the St Louis I am talking about btw

 an autoloading 9x8" cruiser

 

 

Drools!

I hope this makes it into the game.

[Combat_Hamster]

 

but to get to that (and maybe the St Louis) you will have to suffer through giant unamored slow turds

 

this is the St Louis I am talking about btw

 an autoloading 9x8" cruiser

 

 

Looks  very  nice....well  the  light  cruisers are  pretty but  armoured  with duct  tape,  and following complaints  about  protection   the first  series of heavy  cruisers  were armoured with not  one  but two layers of kitchen foil ( spaced armour ), but  the second lot  did  have armour which  would  keep out more  than rain..ok so  really slow,  but elegant  in an  Art Deco meatshield sort of way

[Psychocouac]

 

you are going to like the French cruisers: Slow and Fragile

 

Don't worry they are gonna give us smoke screen and acceleration boost to hide and run away faster for...you know...historical accuracy... -_-.................

[Slezman]

 

Don't worry they are gonna give us smoke screen and acceleration boost to hide and run away faster for...you know...historical accuracy... -_-.................

 

and one unique white flag

[anonym_MfZ6T7iwWpUC]

 

Looks  very  nice....well  the  light  cruisers are  pretty but  armoured  with duct  tape,  and following complaints  about  protection   the first  series of heavy  cruisers  were armoured with not  one  but two layers of kitchen foil ( spaced armour ), but  the second lot  did  have armour which  would  keep out more  than rain..ok so  really slow,  but elegant  in an  Art Deco meatshield sort of way

I would rather have one of the more modern RN CLs with their pea shooters than the CAs. 8" guns or not, I can only imagine how the CAs would compete in WoWs. WG would have a hell of a job balancing them. Dont know how they compare to other nations CAs of the same period.

[Combat_Hamster]

I would rather have one of the more modern RN CLs with their pea shooters than the CAs. 8" guns or not, I can only imagine how the CAs would compete in WoWs. WG would have a hell of a job balancing them. Dont know how they compare to other nations CAs of the same period.

 

Hmmmm,  well  you have   a  bit of a  choice.........and a  mix,  the  Counties  as built are a huge target  and a  pathetic  1" belt...but..you have  box  citadels  round  the important  bits.....but as  rebuilt,  one  group  with 4.5"  belt  another with 3.5".  The  box citadels  worked,  Berwick's kept out  Hipper's 8"  and  if  you read  about  Canberra,  she took a hell of a  bashing...and  she never got  the  rebuild.  The  huge freeboard  will  make then  very  vulnerable and easy to hit.....one  reason  some had  their  T.T. removed  was  that  the torps  broke  up  when launched  from such a height.  York/Exeter....like a slow better armoured Aoba..  but  they were  the  next  round  of  'Washington Tinclads',  where everybody went for better protection.  Exeter/York  6  at a guess,  Counties 7?

[VC381]

 

Hmmmm,  well  you have   a  bit of a  choice.........and a  mix,  the  Counties  as built are a huge target  and a  pathetic  1" belt...but..you have  box  citadels  round  the important  bits.....but as  rebuilt,  one  group  with 4.5"  belt  another with 3.5".  The  box citadels  worked,  Berwick's kept out  Hipper's 8"  and  if  you read  about  Canberra,  she took a hell of a  bashing...and  she never got  the  rebuild.  The  huge freeboard  will  make then  very  vulnerable and easy to hit.....one  reason  some had  their  T.T. removed  was  that  the torps  broke  up  when launched  from such a height.  York/Exeter....like a slow better armoured Aoba..  but  they were  the  next  round  of  'Washington Tinclads',  where everybody went for better protection.  Exeter/York  6  at a guess,  Counties 7?

 

Makes sense, they might even end up feeling very well-protected (against other cruisers) in the game-meta at close range due to having a mostly submerged citadel that's also split into three separate parts (forward/aft magazines and engine spaces) and the rest of the hull easy to hit but only for overpens. Also great concealment. Other than that though closest comparison would probably be Pensacola.

[Waroch]

 

you are going to like the French cruisers: Slow and Fragile

 

so so. I suppose you have in mind the Duquesne and Suffren classes, heavy cruisers of the 1920s. It's true they're often described as fragile cruisers in general books, but that's a bit misleading. They were fragile in the sense that they were too lightly built to stand the wear of time. In a cruiser battle however, with their very tight subdivision, good damage control and propulsion units, they certainly wouldn't have been easy to take out. They were more dangerous foes than some of their armour-carrying counterparts.

It will depend on how WG models it in game. They have the potential to be quite frustrating opponents with overpens for the large calibres, and while HE and small calibres can easily deal damage that's only small slices of hp at a time. That is, if the subdivision is rendered correctly.

 

They're not that large, it's the raised forecastle which gives the impression. The Myoko would be somewhat narrower and lower on the water, but longer. The Pensacola is marginally more compact (and was IRL criticised for being too compact and lacking freeboard).

They're not particularly slow either. They were remarkable steamers even though their top speed remained relatively limited by the desiderata of the French navy. Given WG is doing a real soup with speed values in game with service and trial speeds merrily mixed together, it's impossible to predict a value. That sould be between 30 and 33 (Suffren) or 34,5 knots (Duquesne).

 

The one fragile cruiser may be the Emile Bertin, but it rather belongs to T5 and is not quite a slow cruiser. Expect a top speed from 35 to 40 knots...

 

Other potential T6+ are the La Galissonière, de Grasse, Algérie and C5 project/Saint Louis. All of them are good all-rounders. La Galissonière and Algérie are generally quoted as the most balanced designs of treaty cruisers.

[Combat_Hamster]

 

so so. I suppose you have in mind the Duquesne and Suffren classes, heavy cruisers of the 1920s. It's true they're often described as fragile cruisers in general books, but that's a bit misleading. They were fragile in the sense that they were too lightly built to stand the wear of time. In a cruiser battle however, with their very tight subdivision, good damage control and propulsion units, they certainly wouldn't have been easy to take out. They were more dangerous foes than some of their armour-carrying counterparts.

It will depend on how WG models it in game. They have the potential to be quite frustrating opponents with overpens for the large calibres, and while HE and small calibres can easily deal damage that's only small slices of hp at a time. That is, if the subdivision is rendered correctly.

 

They're not that large, it's the raised forecastle which gives the impression. The Myoko would be somewhat narrower and lower on the water, but longer. The Pensacola is marginally more compact (and was IRL criticised for being too compact and lacking freeboard).

They're not particularly slow either. They were remarkable steamers even though their top speed remained relatively limited by the desiderata of the French navy. Given WG is doing a real soup with speed values in game with service and trial speeds merrily mixed together, it's impossible to predict a value. That sould be between 30 and 33 (Suffren) or 34,5 knots (Duquesne).

 

The one fragile cruiser may be the Emile Bertin, but it rather belongs to T5 and is not quite a slow cruiser. Expect a top speed from 35 to 40 knots...

 

Other potential T6+ are the La Galissonière, de Grasse, Algérie and C5 project/Saint Louis. All of them are good all-rounders. La Galissonière and Algérie are generally quoted as the most balanced designs of treaty cruisers.

 

You have  raised  a  very important  point,  good  structural strength,  seaworthiness, habitability...are irrelevant in  the  way  the  ships  armour is modelled.... as an example  the hull of the Trento  was 1500 tons  lighter  than that of  the Counties .I like  the  La  Glassonaires  very much,  a very nice  package..Emil  Bertin  I really see as a  French Manxman on steroids.  The Japanese ships..and  the  US ships  to a much lesser degree suffered with stability issues..I would  agree with  Algerie  being one of the best of the 'Tinclads'...I would put her  at the top  with  the Wichita ( on which Douglas Fairbanks served )  as  the best of the treaty cruisers..well  those  who stuck to  the rules...

[Combat_Hamster]

 

Makes sense, they might even end up feeling very well-protected (against other cruisers) in the game-meta at close range due to having a mostly submerged citadel that's also split into three separate parts (forward/aft magazines and engine spaces) and the rest of the hull easy to hit but only for overpens. Also great concealment. Other than that though closest comparison would probably be Pensacola.

 

When  I watched  the  video on Ajax,  they did explain the separate  armoured compartments....yet  they don't appear  on the  armour model of the ship in game..or any of the others,  but  the 'box citadel'  was  a  feature  of  post-Jutland  ships.... I think the Counties  will be a huge  target  with  their  extensive  freeboard...I threw up a  post  on RN cruisers ( and  also Italian/French )...and added  some  pics  and descriptions  of damage  that  the Counties  took.

[mr3awsome]

as  rebuilt,  one  group  with 4.5"  belt  another with 3.5".  

Whilst the Kents did have a 4.5" armoured belt, its so narrow its barely going to be felt. 

Which is why they went for the 3.5" belt on the London rebuild. Thinner, but it'll actually cover a decent area. 

[Historynerd]

Other potential T6+ are the La Galissonière, de Grasse, Algérie and C5 project/Saint Louis. All of them are good all-rounders. La Galissonière and Algérie are generally quoted as the most balanced designs of treaty cruisers.

 

About the Algerie, no discussion, since it managed to achieve a very good degree of protection (also against underwater threats) with decent speed and firepower, all while keeping with the treaty limits.

About the La Galissonière, I am not sure wheter they can claim a significant edge over their nearest competitors, the Italian Duca degli Abruzzi; after all, the latter kept to the 10'000 t limit (with a modest increase compared to their French opponents, all in all), their protection concept may be controversial (based on the "decapping plate" concept) but I think that at worst it would not have entailed a disadvantage, while if effective it might have given them an edge, their top speed was a bit lower, and they had an additional 152 mm barrel.

But given that your knowledge of the French cruisers is definitely superior to mine, maybe the La Galissonière have advantages that I am not aware of.

 

Sorry for the OT. 

[Comrad_StaIin]

lets look at some french cruisers (sry OT)

 

 The Duquesne-class

the Duquesne's maximum armor thickness is an AMAZING 30mm and it only goes 30kts 

the maim armaments consists of 4x2 203mm/50 Modèle 1924 guns which are pretty good (which they should be as you will have that exact same gun all the way up to tier 8)

I expect this ship to be at tier 5 tier 6 at best

 

next is the Suffren-class

they doubled the armor to about 60mm and increased the speed by 1kt (31kts) also carrying the 203mm/50 Modèle 1924 gun in 4 double mounts

I expect it to be at Tier 7 if they give it good enough Range 

 

know you get to the Algérie they doubled the armor belt again to 120mm now you can actualy feel kinda tanky it still carries the 203mm/50 Modèle 1924 gun 

in 4 double mounts and also still goes 31kts

I expect this ship to be tier 8 basicly a way better armored Hipper at the cost of 1kts speed and slightly worse guns