IJN high tier dds and the current meta

[Marducas91]

hi all captains, I'm starting this topic to dicuss with you all the current state of the high tier IJN dds.

I'll clarify immediatly a thing: this is not a complaining-whining post, it is more of a " I want your opinion/advices/whatever " on this topic.
Now we all know that jap dds depends on stealth and on the "good torps" ( this is questionable considering that american dds gets really good torps at high tiers) but how are you ment to use those if you can be perma spotted by pretty much every cruiser and even bbs now from t7 upwards? carrier planes, spotter planes, hydro and radar have a huge impact on what you can and cannot do in a jap dd, not to talk about being spotted by an american or a russian dd, which will simply nuke u with superior guns and RoF ( ok, u can kill them in a gun fight, done it a lot of time but higher the tier lesser the chance of this happening).

lets take as an example the Kagero, stealthiest ship in the game with the capt perk and the module it gets a detection of 5.4 km. with this ship you can use 3 types of torps: 20km ( noone uses those, too slow and too easy to detect), 10 km ( my choice and the best one imo) and the 8 km suicide torps. you get into a match with a couple  of t9 cruisers and some german bbs and if those guys know what they are doing, you'll never be able to even get close to launch your torps. just had a game in which a dm donskoi spotted me with radar from 9.5 km and my torps "only" have 10 km range. of course being a dd you will immediately get the attenction of every gun in the match so you try to escape as fast as you can hoping that the radar wont last for too long in order not to get blown out of the water...

if I had been in a american or russiand dd I would have at least been able to fire my guns with some kind of results thx to more range and faster turret rotations and even thx to maneuvrability (cause kagero is slow as crap and bleeds a lot of speed in turns).

so, if you can't even use your on stealth in a stealth based ship what should you do?

 

Greetings, Marducas91

PS: I'm not english so if there are any kind of mistakes in what I've written forgive me ;)

[HMS_Antelope]

 

Hi

 

First I would like to point out I am only up to T7 IJN and just got the T8 USN, I play the US destroyers more because of the high number of destroyers in the game at the moment.  I feel they kill other destroyers better than IJN and can at least have a chance to damage ships etc.  So although I cannot comment on T8/9/10 IJN the fact that every game seems to have a high number of DD's in it, is forcing a change in the ships we play, for example I love the Bismarck as it can truly hunt DD's with  15 point Captains.  When games have more carriers I change my ship load outs for anti air, maybe the German line and the upcoming RN line is not only changing the MM but the types of ships we play.  Low tier is full of seal clubbing destroyers praying on the numerous German battleships.  Your English is excellent BTW.

 

 

 

 

[VeteranGamer84]

IJN DDs are sort of weak compared to other DDs but take a look at the new IJN DDs coming and take that photo as a example:

You can see four turrets with each containing 2 canons and 1 torpedo salvo, Maybe IJN DD players can rejoice now having an IJN DD gunboat? 

For me I only have fun with my Kamikaze R and will definitely play those IJN DDs when they come out.

 

[Marducas91]

yeah, I've seen those new jap dds...and to be honest the fact that they can possibly become gun boats scares me a bit
I chose the jap dds cause they were "different" by relying on torps instead of using their gun as all the other type of ships in the game exept for carrier.

so yeah, that possible change doesn't really have make me happy

[Elenortirion]

yeah, I've seen those new jap dds...and to be honest the fact that they can possibly become gun boats scares me a bit

I chose the jap dds cause they were "different" by relying on torps instead of using their gun as all the other type of ships in the game exept for carrier.

so yeah, that possible change doesn't really have make me happy

 

welp posted on a screenshot akizuki is using 100mm/64 dual purpose guns

 

these are famous for being most efficient anti-air gun IJN manufactured during WW2 but with caliber such low you can imagin at least few difficulties with attmepting the regular "gunboating" while sailing that ship - especially at t8

[creamgravy]

Fun fact:

 

Shimakaze currently has the 3rd highest destroyer gun DPM in the game.

[Marducas91]

Guess what, there are only 3 Major nation dds in game xD

[Spellfire40]

RU CA have around 11km radar that last very short. Us CA around 9km but longer duration. Both dont have stealth exeding their radar range. To get Into your range they have to get near were you are and If they do every BB in 20 km will priortize them.

 

IJN from T7 on are Hybrids

Their guns may lack im RoF and Rotation but have good balistics alpha and fire chance. From t8 on you can stealthfire. You usally gets a few free rounds on anything before it can react. I used that on a DesM. who never got into Radar range and was forced to disengage when I played my Shima. DDs are a Problem. CAs on their own?  Not really even with radar.

 

Hatsu atm is the low point of the line but even here its more of a case that people dont realize they have guns and smoke is more than a escape Tool plus aft is a ok skill suddenly.

[creamgravy]

Guess what, there are only 3 Major nation dds in game xD

 

It means Shimakaze can outgun both Fletcher and Udaloi, Yūgumo should get the same firepower at tier 9.

 

 

Hatsu atm is the low point of the line but even here its more of a case that people dont realize they have guns and smoke is more than a escape Tool plus aft is a ok skill suddenly.

 

Hatusharu my fav IJN destroyer.  Tiny and manoeuvrable with great weapons, it overtook the slow and clunky Fubuki when I got CE to tie it all together.

[Marducas91]

Actually it can't
Ok you can land some 2-3k damage volleys( and good luck with that while hard maneuvering with your turrets being un able to follow The target) but in the mean time both of those DD would have Fired at you 2 times for each salvo you fire without any issues in tracking your movements. And shima is a t10 those are T9

Also good luck doing so against a khaba or a gearing

 

[shamelesscreature]

Fun fact:

 

Shimakaze currently has the 3rd highest destroyer gun DPM in the game.

 

That's not true, though. Shimakaze has 108360 HE DPM without reload module or captain skills which is beaten by all T7+ Soviet DDs and all T6+ US DDs. Udaloi has 124800 DPM with upgraded turrets, Fletcher has 162000 DPM.

[Shirakami_Kon]

I really like those 4x4 guns on Akizuki, they look promising, I'd like to see her as a gun boat. At least that was what I thought until out of curiosity I looked her in wikipedia and saw that the max speed she gets it's 33 knots.

 

33 knots for a DD in tier 8 it's... horrendous, I mean... she'll face T7 Gneisenaus that reach 32 knots, that's just 1 knot less... and that's a BB!

All other DDs are going to be way faster that Akizuki, Atago reaches 35'5 knots, Mogami 34'5, Chapayev 33'5, still faster, the only T8 cruiser slower that Akizuki will be the New Orleans with 32'5, half knot slower.

 

With just 1 torp launcher Akizuki won't be an effective stealth torp ambusher, even if she can do that, because of just 4 torps per salvo, so her main point must be the guns, but with that speed... I see a sever problem for her. Of course, there's ways around it, she could use the terrain to her advantadge, islands and such, and shoot behind them, but what I mean is that she won't be a good gunboat in open water, because she will get spotted and will have a hard time disengaging from battles like any other gunboat that could just stop firing and run away from there with a good speed. Akizuki seems to be going to lack so much speed to do that role efectively.

[Marducas91]

guys pls stay on topic, this post is not about the new ijn dds coming out.

 

btw I've just logged into the client, seen the "introducing patch 5.11" on the screen and went to the site to look at the patch notes...aaaand seems like they are buffing even more the radar consumable but halving its reload time...just to add insult to injury imo...

[creamgravy]

Actually it can't

Ok you can land some 2-3k damage volleys( and good luck with that while hard maneuvering with your turrets being un able to follow The target) but in the mean time both of those DD would have Fired at you 2 times for each salvo you fire without any issues in tracking your movements. And shima is a t10 those are T9

Also good luck doing so against a khaba or a gearing

 

 

​Forget DPM figures that only look at magical HE citadels agasint stationary targets with no dispersion, they're utterly useless.

 

In game Shimakaze only needs 11% better accuracy than Fletcher for a higher DPM, that's very easy to achieve outside pointblank ranges. Expert Marksman normalises turret tracking.

Khabarovsk averages 4500 more damage over 60 seconds (assuming both destroyers achieve 40% accuracy and you get the first volley) See a Khab with 4-5k less HP and no cruiser support? You could gun them down in a straight up fight.

 

Learn to use those amazing guns.

[Mike_Chaffin]

 Well having just ground my way through the Hatsu, and by ground I actually mean it was like grinding my gonads to a fine powder with a pestle and mortar, whilst awake, without painkillers, and whilst pretending to smile at the fun of it all....

 

 Maybe I digress. So I foolishly sell the Hatsu to make room in the garage, pay the iron price in xp and how much??? 9 million quid? Ok, this thing has quite a rep, must be worth it... So another couple of mil to outfit it and.... It's a Hatsu only a bit fatter. Waddles a bit in the corners and they fixed the Hatsu's lack of nimbleness by adding another couple of slowly turning turrets in the back that can't keep up with the action.

 

 But it's stealthier.. Well no, it's less stealthy unless you fork out for a module. So what does it do better?

 

.....

 

 

...

 

.

 

 Well the torpedoes are much nicer. Oh and there's some nice upgrades... I can upgrade the guns for merely a million or so... Hmm, good, I like guns.. Takes 2 seconds off their 180 time? That's a pricey upgrade. 2 seconds, will I even notice that? Surely the others will be worth it. Excellent I can pay a lot of cash to have AAA fitted which I then press P to keep it shiny and new. Or, finally the C hull gives me... One turret less and lots of AA to turn off. Soooooooo.... Once I picked my jaw off the floor at the price of this thing, I then realised that once I have spent an extra 7 or 8 mil I will get back a slightly fatter, waddlier slower Hatsu, which I hated, but with some nice torpedos.

 

 Luckily once you get up into tier 8 it appears the standard drops markedly, lots of premiums ( I can't talk, just bought a Scharnhorst), lots of firefight dodging and hoping everyone else will leave the base first so I can mop up in this toy mummy bought me sort of thing.

 

Frankly though, if you want something torpedoing then send a Scharnhorst. It won't die on the way to a Russian DD for a start, wouldn't be somewhat afraid of American DD's. Wouldn't sit in a smoke cloud wondering how the hell it is ever going to get out if said DD's plus their encroaching cruiser mates don't beggar off. Rate of fire doesn't seem so much different either! Or, more realistically, promote a Kuma from T4 with those nice 140mm's, strip a few off for AAA, give it smoke and the fancy modules along with the nice torps and you'd have something far better than the fatter, waddlier, less stealthy miss a volley and die, hit and die anyway current DD range.

 

 I think I'm rather glad they're reworking the DDs. What is the point of T7 ships that don't really work without a 15 point captain? What is the point in skillfully sneaking your way through the defences to land a volley of torps which results in the Scharny merely nonchalantly eating one and carrying on without noticing too much? I feel rather sorry for the poor Hatsu when I avoid them entirely. Still, I suspect it made his game.. Always did mine.

 

 I did sneak up on an Iowa in my Buki, got a few rounds off until the secondaries of a Bismark who didn't even know I was there decided to shred me. I landed my obligatory single torp though so it made my game...

[Elenortirion]

 

 I did sneak up on an Iowa in my Buki, got a few rounds off until the secondaries of a Bismark who didn't even know I was there decided to shred me. I landed my obligatory single torp though so it made my game...

 

I'd only like to point out that secondary specced bismarcs are using manual control for secondary armament, and if the secondary volleys were anyhow accurate it means that not only he knew you are there but also ctr+clicked on you

[T_H_0_R]

 Well having just ground my way through the Hatsu...

 

High(er) tier battles aren't for everyone. I struggled with Buky for the first 12-15 games. Then we just clicked. For all T8+ ships a 15pt captain makes a big difference, some only then become competitive, useable, however you wish to call it...

 

But in your case it clearly isn't about the violin, it is the violinist. 

[Marducas91]

 Well having just ground my way through the Hatsu, and by ground I actually mean it was like grinding my gonads to a fine powder with a pestle and mortar, whilst awake, without painkillers, and whilst pretending to smile at the fun of it all....

 

 Maybe I digress. So I foolishly sell the Hatsu to make room in the garage, pay the iron price in xp and how much??? 9 million quid? Ok, this thing has quite a rep, must be worth it... So another couple of mil to outfit it and.... It's a Hatsu only a bit fatter. Waddles a bit in the corners and they fixed the Hatsu's lack of nimbleness by adding another couple of slowly turning turrets in the back that can't keep up with the action.

 

 But it's stealthier.. Well no, it's less stealthy unless you fork out for a module. So what does it do better?

 

.....

 

 

...

 

.

 

 Well the torpedoes are much nicer. Oh and there's some nice upgrades... I can upgrade the guns for merely a million or so... Hmm, good, I like guns.. Takes 2 seconds off their 180 time? That's a pricey upgrade. 2 seconds, will I even notice that? Surely the others will be worth it. Excellent I can pay a lot of cash to have AAA fitted which I then press P to keep it shiny and new. Or, finally the C hull gives me... One turret less and lots of AA to turn off. Soooooooo.... Once I picked my jaw off the floor at the price of this thing, I then realised that once I have spent an extra 7 or 8 mil I will get back a slightly fatter, waddlier slower Hatsu, which I hated, but with some nice torpedos.

 

 Luckily once you get up into tier 8 it appears the standard drops markedly, lots of premiums ( I can't talk, just bought a Scharnhorst), lots of firefight dodging and hoping everyone else will leave the base first so I can mop up in this toy mummy bought me sort of thing.

 

Frankly though, if you want something torpedoing then send a Scharnhorst. It won't die on the way to a Russian DD for a start, wouldn't be somewhat afraid of American DD's. Wouldn't sit in a smoke cloud wondering how the hell it is ever going to get out if said DD's plus their encroaching cruiser mates don't beggar off. Rate of fire doesn't seem so much different either! Or, more realistically, promote a Kuma from T4 with those nice 140mm's, strip a few off for AAA, give it smoke and the fancy modules along with the nice torps and you'd have something far better than the fatter, waddlier, less stealthy miss a volley and die, hit and die anyway current DD range.

 

 I think I'm rather glad they're reworking the DDs. What is the point of T7 ships that don't really work without a 15 point captain? What is the point in skillfully sneaking your way through the defences to land a volley of torps which results in the Scharny merely nonchalantly eating one and carrying on without noticing too much? I feel rather sorry for the poor Hatsu when I avoid them entirely. Still, I suspect it made his game.. Always did mine.

 

 I did sneak up on an Iowa in my Buki, got a few rounds off until the secondaries of a Bismark who didn't even know I was there decided to shred me. I landed my obligatory single torp though so it made my game...

Dude you Made my day better with this post XD and the fun fact is that i had the same experience. Got my shima yesterday, hope something will change

 

 

[Mike_Chaffin]

"I'd only like to point out that secodnary specced bismarcs are using manual control for secondary armament, and if the secondary volleys were anyhow accurate it means that not only he knew you are there but also ctr+clicked on you"

 

 Yes, I now realise he completely outplayed me. Thank you for that. I assume you don't mean that he held down Ctrl and clicked on my icon with his mouse, then got back to shooting important stuff. Might suck a bit if something that trivial rather countered a playstyle.

 

 Saying that I might be singing the Fubukalumps praises after a few more games, having a fully trained captain might help never mind a 15 pointer! Might take a while on that strange tier 2 creature. What is it for? I mean it's fascinating and I can't help myself but play it, I just don't know why. I was dueling a twin barrelled Clemsen, didn't win, no idea how I could, but I have to try it. It's strangely compelling. To think I was moaning to myself about 65 kt torps... When the Tachibanna fires a torp you can see the tide affecting it. Still, one must achieve kraken in a Tier 4 match with it. Wonder whether anyone has ever citadeled a cruiser with it...

[Elenortirion]

"I'd only like to point out that secodnary specced bismarcs are using manual control for secondary armament, and if the secondary volleys were anyhow accurate it means that not only he knew you are there but also ctr+clicked on you"

 

 Yes, I now realise he completely outplayed me. Thank you for that. I assume you don't mean that he held down Ctrl and clicked on my icon with his mouse, then got back to shooting important stuff. Might suck a bit if something that trivial rather countered a playstyle.

 

 Saying that I might be singing the Fubukalumps praises after a few more games, having a fully trained captain might help never mind a 15 pointer! Might take a while on that strange tier 2 creature. What is it for? I mean it's fascinating and I can't help myself but play it, I just don't know why. I was dueling a twin barrelled Clemsen, didn't win, no idea how I could, but I have to try it. It's strangely compelling. To think I was moaning to myself about 65 kt torps... When the Tachibanna fires a torp you can see the tide affecting it. Still, one must achieve kraken in a Tier 4 match with it. Wonder whether anyone has ever citadeled a cruiser with it...

 

here is how your story feels to me right now:

you tried to ambush iowa with fubuki

you forgot to realise that there was a BB that is currently known as the doom of spotted DDs within 10km range

you got your back delivered to yourself by that mistake

you went whining of forums how bad it was

 

I for once do not have much struggle to fit my fubuki averages around serverwide averages and I do not have 15p captain yet

 

how do I achieve this?

firstly I am aware of what ships enemy are sailing and I adjust my tactics properly I do not "lock myself" onto trying to trop "one torp" on closest Battleship, instead I am playing for objective, dealing whith what is biggest threat to me first and calling out for team to assist me with - for example - enemy Destroyer

 

so you should either learn to play those ships, or admitt that the class is not for you

[PS. I have actually enjoyed hatsuharu and was one of those "crazy" people who were actually using torpedo reload consumable instead of smoke]

[Mike_Chaffin]

 Thanks old chap but not whining, having a rant.

 

Different "things".

[Elenortirion]

 Thanks old chap but not whining, having a rant.

 

Different "things".

 

which are to be honest close enought

 

by the way as for the state of high tier DDs I could throw to the table my todays evening in fubuki

 

I have got quite a few TX matches where I fully expected to die, in some I took down with me higher tiered USN DDs and/or it took like full hakuryu taskforce to take me down

 

most of those matches lost due to different aspects of a game, but in at least two I emerged MVP last man standing with quite a big gap in experience between me and the next person in the table.....

 

so I'd risk claiming that fubuki is close to be fine

[Mike_Chaffin]

 Not at all.

 

She's growing on me too sport, not sure whether it's the upgrades or me getting the hang of her.

 

 Stick with her Marduco, though scraping up the dosh for an upgraded hull seemed to change my experience considerably....

[22cm]

From all the high tier Jap DDs, Fubuki is the only one that manages a positive winrate, over 50%.

 

 

[Mike_Chaffin]

 Well I got the hang of the Fubuki all right, great fun when you have a slight clue what to do with it. I still endorse my observations of the A hull. B hull is ok though I appear to me the only person in christendom who found the C hull the best...

 

 So finally unlocked the Kagero. Bit of a bumpy landing as per the Fubuki but eased somewhat by some expert divisional guidance. Lots of dosh to get it into fit shape but, oh the joy. My word this boat is fun. Just..... Wow.

 

 Any poor mother, son of, bar steward or munchkin who is currently foaming at the mouth trying to work out what the Hatsu is for and what it is, I can guarantee you the grind is worth it. 

 

 So.... This is the high tier gameplay that WG want to change???? The pain, suffering, near institutionalisation that is the Hatsu, followed by the harsh lesson in the Fubuki to this wonderful bit of kit is... Somehow sub optimal? 

 

 I can only assume they want to remove the knife edge gameplay, the flow of dodging 16 inch rounds at danger close. These new tubs had better be modelled on this beaut.