HMS Tiger (C20) premium proposal

[Affeks]

So now that we know the RN Light cruiser is just beyond the horizon, I felt it was time to take another look at the British machine gun... namely the Tiger-class. The Tiger isn't in the upcoming tech tree (as expected), so I figured this ship would have to be a premium if anything. As this game won't have missiles, I'll only be looking at the ship as it was built. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger-class_cruiser

 

So as we can see the ship was armed with 2x2 6" guns, not that impressive untill we take a look at the guns themselves. http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_6-50_mkN5.htm 

Yep you read that right, 15-20 rpm. From what I've heard, The upcoming tier 10 Minotaur will have 5x2 6" with a rof of 15 rpm, so from that info I can imagine this ship becoming a tier 8. The 6" guns also had a 180 degree traverse of 4.5 seconds!!!

Edit: The 6" guns are the same as those on the upcoming Minotaur and Neptune classes.

 

Edit: Lets compare this to current tier 8s, Mogami, Chapayev, Mikhail, upcoming Edinburg are all able to put out 90 shells a minute with 4 turrets on most plus 5 on Mogami. Compare this to Tiger which can put out 60-80 shells per minute (depending on what rpm figure WG uses). What this means is that they have big citadels. From base we know Mogami has over 50 sec 180 degree traverse time and the russians having 25. Tiger is also shorter than all tier 8 cruisers we know of so that tells us that she'll probably turn really well. My question is; is it worth giving up 10-30 shells aminute to have a smaller citadel, better turning circle, faster traverse speed and better AA?

Tiger was also armed with 3x2 3" guns with a rof of 90 rpm, so they will most likely be AA only (though it would be cool to have secondaries firing that fast ). One of these were mounted superfiring A turret as seen on the picture, with the other two being wing mounted abaft the rearmost turret. http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNBR_3-70_mk6.htm

Edit: These are the same AA guns the upcoming Minotaur has.

 

Armor and speed is not this ships strenghts.

 

It would be fun seing this ship having the fastest firing 6" guns in the game, with the help of smoke I can see this ship creating a lot of funny moments. I'm not sure, but I Tiger is was the last all gun cruiser built by Britan, so it also has quite the symbolic value.

 

I'll list some stats based on what we see on the test server on Minotaur's 6" and 3" guns

 

Main Battery

152mm / 50 XXVI (5 x 2)

Reload : 4 seconds

Turret rotating speed : 4.7 seconds / 180 degrees

HE shells : Mark V Standard, damage 2200, initial shell velocity : 768 m / s, fire chance : 11%

AP shells : Mark V standard, damage 3200, initial shell velocity : 768 m / s

 

AA

152 mm / 50 Mark XXVI (2 X 2) : DPS = 47.2 : Range = 6 km

76.2 mm / 70 Mark VI (3 X 2) : DPS = 118.125 : Range = 5 km

[Trainspite]

I would think Blake would be a decent tier 7 premium. Similar to Atlanta in ways.

 

Blake, so not to conflict with the BC Tiger.

[creamgravy]

Blake would be interesting but Fiji and Belfast are significantly more powerful at tier 7. You'd need smoke, radar, hydro, defensive AA fire and repair consumables.   

 

This is the Tiger we all want! 

 

[Affeks]

Blake would be interesting but Fiji and Belfast are significantly more powerful at tier 7. You'd need smoke, radar, hydro, defensive AA fire and repair consumables.   

 

This is the Tiger we all want! 

 

eww no

 

also I'm comparing Tiger/Blake to current tier 8 CLs and Tiger is much shorter which means shell turn helluva lot faster. Also Tiger could put out up to 80 shells a minute while Chapayev/Mikhail/Mogami puts out 90 so the difference isn't that big considering Tiger has a much better traverse speed as well. I don't see where you guys think the ship is lacking.

Edit: The AA on this thing would be insane as well so no go any lower imo

[Affeks]

I would think Blake would be a decent tier 7 premium. Similar to Atlanta in ways.

 

Blake, so not to conflict with the BC Tiger.

 

I agree with the Blake thing, but I can't see the similarities with Atlanta other than fast firing guns. Blake has 2x2 6" and Atlanta has 8(7)x2 5"  so already there the difference is showing. They're about the same lenght and has same thickness of armor though.

[Trainspite]

 

I agree with the Blake thing, but I can't see the similarities with Atlanta other than fast firing guns. Blake has 2x2 6" and Atlanta has 8(7)x2 5"  so already there the difference is showing. They're about the same lenght and has same thickness of armor though.

 

Fast firing, poor shell arc, pretty good HE spammer. In terms of playstyle, I think they are similar enough. 

 

Of course there are differences, like with a 60kg shell vs a 25kg one, so Tiger's AP has to be reckoned with. sooner than Atlanta's. And that Tiger/Blake displaces substantially more than Atlanta, meaning more HP.

[creamgravy]

eww no

 

also I'm comparing Tiger/Blake to current tier 8 CLs and Tiger is much shorter which means shell turn helluva lot faster. Also Tiger could put out up to 80 shells a minute while Chapayev/Mikhail/Mogami puts out 90 so the difference isn't that big considering Tiger has a much better traverse speed as well. I don't see where you guys think the ship is lacking.

Edit: The AA on this thing would be insane as well so no go any lower imo

 

Tiger/Blake is similar to Fiji in size and manoeuvrability.

Neptune

Minotaur

Edinburgh

Emerald

Fiji

Leander

Danae

Caledon

Weymouth

Black Swan

 

 

Here's a quick comparison for average HE gun damage. (RN CLs data from supertest server and could change)

 

Name	Tier	Guns	Reload (s)	Armour pen	HE Salvo	HE DPM	Fires per minute	FPM with DE
Leander	6	8	7.5	25	3150	11760	2.08	2.77
Cleveland	6	12	8	25	5500	17325	3.9	4.87
Fiji/Belfast	7	12	7.5	25	5250	17640	2.87	3.83
Myoko	7	10	14	34	7425	15911	3.15	3.71
Atlanta	7	14	4.5	21	5400	25200	2.16	3.5
Blake	-	4	3	25	1650	13500	2.65	3.37
Minotaur	10	10	4	25	4950	28875	3.92	4.99

 

Leander has weak guns for tier 6, similar in firepower to a Farragut B-hull, but has good torpedoes and low concealment.

 

Tiger's from a different era and WOWS doesn't have the best game mechanics for it. (Russian laser beams vs RN/US firework launchers etc) 4 guns that struggle to hit ships past 10km and no torpedoes won't be fun.

 

Enjoy Minotaur for what might've been. 

[Affeks]

 

Tiger's from a different era and WOWS doesn't have the best game mechanics for it. (Russian laser beams vs RN/US firework launchers etc) 4 guns that struggle to hit ships past 10km and no torpedoes won't be fun.

 

Enjoy Minotaur for what might've been. 

Tiger has the same guns and AA as Minotaur, so theres no one saying the game doesn't have the mechanics for it lol. I just want Tiger in game as I its a unique design that is quite in line with the game's premises.

[creamgravy]

It would be very interesting to see in game. Maybe Clevelands spiritual successor when it gets bumped a tier or two? I'd buy it for times of high CV popularity

 

Tiger AA (from supertest server)

6km (8.6km max) = 62 dps

5km (7.2km max) = 118 dps

Total = 165

Long range = 242 with manual AA.

 

Cleveland AA

5km (7.2km max) = 100 dps

3.5km (5km max) = 75 dps

2km = 51 dps

Total = 226 dps

Long range = 275 with manual AA.

[Affeks]

It would be very interesting to see in game. Maybe Clevelands spiritual successor when it gets bumped a tier or two? I'd buy it for times of high CV popularity

 

Tiger AA (from supertest server)

6km (8.6km max) = 62 dps

5km (7.2km max) = 118 dps

Total = 165

Long range = 242 with manual AA.

 

Cleveland AA

5km (7.2km max) = 100 dps

3.5km (5km max) = 75 dps

2km = 51 dps

Total = 226 dps

Long range = 275 with manual AA.

 

Is tiger on the test servers or are you using Minotaurs damage numbers?

[creamgravy]

Guns stats are from Minotaur. > https://thearmoredpatrol.com/2016/08/21/tier-10-british-cruiser-minotaur-leak/

 

 

[piritskenyer]

It would be very interesting to see in game. Maybe Clevelands spiritual successor when it gets bumped a tier or two? I'd buy it for times of high CV popularity

 

Tiger AA (from supertest server)

6km (8.6km max) = 62 dps

5km (7.2km max) = 118 dps

Total = 165

Long range = 242 with manual AA.

 

Cleveland AA

5km (7.2km max) = 100 dps

3.5km (5km max) = 75 dps

2km = 51 dps

Total = 226 dps

Long range = 275 with manual AA.

 

Umm, what I calculated for Tiger/Blake's AA is a wee bit different.

 

• 152mm/50 Mk XXVI: 47,2 at 6km
• 76.2mm/70 Mk VI: 118,125 at 5km

 

Apply B/AFT:

 

• 152mm/50 Mk XXVI: 52 at 7,2km
• 76.2mm/70 Mk VI: 130 at 6km

 

Apply MAAFC on top of that:

 

• 152mm/50 Mk XXVI: 104 at 7,2km

 

Which would total: 234 DPS

[creamgravy]

Wat? How dare U insult my late nite mafs  

 

Your 100% correct, cheers! (Don't forget AA Guns Modification 2 for ultimate CV trollage) 

[piritskenyer]

Wat? How dare U insult my late nite mafs  

 

Your 100% correct, cheers! (Don't forget AA Guns Modification 2 for ultimate CV trollage) 

 

I did forget it.

 

That would make the thing look as follows:

• 152mm/50 Mk XXVI: 52 at 8,64km
• 76.2mm/70 Mk VI: 130 at 7,2km

 

Now I for one wouldn't recommend using MAAFC, as that one requires you to assign targets manually, because unless you do, your large-calibre AA guns will not fire.

 

 

Also on a complete sidetrack, a full AA build for a Minotaur would look as follows (again, B/AFT, AAA mods 2 and 3, but no MAAFC):

• 152mm/50 Mk XXVI: 162,25 at 8,64km
• 76.2mm/70 Mk VI: 433,125 at 7,2km
• 20mm/70 Oerlikon gun Mk V: 83,875 at 2,88km

A total of 679,25 DPS...

If we were to add MAAFC, that'd end up being 841,5

 

But of course that's no problem, these cruisers don't get DAAF, remember?

 

Oh and you know where this thing becomes really, and I mean really perverted? 

• Base detection: 11.5km
• Base air detection: 9.1km

Apply CE and CSM1

• Surface detection: 9,11km
• Air detection: 7,21

 

Your heavy AA will start engaging enemy aircraft before they even see you. If they are headed in the right direction they won't be able to take evasive maneuvers before they enter your 3" AA zone and then... Well, you know what happens then.

 

[creamgravy]

Yeah, Minotaur would make a great fleet support ship.

 

(Oh and don't forget camo for a 8.8km surface detection)

[piritskenyer]

Yeah, Minotaur would make a great fleet support ship.

 

(Oh and don't forget camo for a 8.8km surface detection)

 

I did forget it. Again.

[Todger_Fairmile]

The ONLY HMS Tiger I want to see Is the Battlecruiser.

 

https://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints-depot/ships/ships-uk/hms-tiger-1914-battlecruiser.png

 

Preferably as a tech tree ship, with a possible rebuild.

 

http://s286.photobucket.com/user/kiyone4ever/media/TigerRebuild.png.html

 

 

[odditddy]

would like to see tiger in game, my grandfather was a Gunner on board working with the main armament.

 

[Affeks]

Yeah HMS Blake for tier 7 is my conclusion 2 months later...

[creamgravy]

4 (inaccurate) 6" guns and no torpedoes isn't enough for tier 7. 

 

Tier 6 is fine. Give it the same load out as Belfast. HE, smoke, radar and sonar.

[Trainspite]

4 (inaccurate) 6" guns and no torpedoes isn't enough for tier 7. 

 

Tier 6 is fine. Give it the same load out as Belfast. HE, smoke, radar and sonar.

 

With a 3 second reload? Tier 6 is too low unless you decrease that.  

Compared to Belfast, she puts out less shells, is less well armoured, but has better AA (would have better secondaries if WG gave her 76mm their DP). And considering how overpowered Belfast is... I see no problems with her at tier 7. 

[creamgravy]

Here's a rough calculation for damage based off my experiences with Minotaur.

 

AP DPM (Shells per minute)

Fiji: 34,000 (48)

Blake 20rpm: 26,000 (36)

Leander: 23,000 (32)

Blake 15rpm: 20,000 (27)

 

Blake won't have secondaries or torpedoes to supplement the damage and the AA will get overwhelmed by multiple squads like Minotaur. I think she'd be well balanced for tier 6.

[Trainspite]

At tier 6 she faces ships like Dido, and Leander, and to be honest, Tiger (Blake in game), doesn't fit among them. A post-war modification to a tier 7 design, she still retains tier 7 firepower. She would have the most HP, the most AA, basically the best armour. And despite having only 4 guns, at 20RPM, she spits out more shells than Leander. At tier 6 she would have to have no consumables at all. 

 

DPM is a very poor stat for balancing, it is a potential that is very rarely reached, and whether it is reached or not depends too much on many other factors. Hence, the number of shells the ship can put out is a bit more relevant, to me at least. Also, AP is a bit selective really. I doubt any future RN CLs will get AP only, at least not in the way they have now. 

 

HMS Blake at tier 7, with 20RPM, normal HE and AP, Very good AA, and a selection of consumables. Picture her like Yubari at tier 7. But simply to me, Tiger/Blake is not a natural fit at tier 6.

[creamgravy]

Dido and Leander are more powerful agasint ships, more armour and post war mods are bad in this game. 

[Trainspite]

Dido and Leander are more powerful agasint ships, more armour and post war mods are bad in this game. 

 

Doesn't really matter... I mean I could shred a Budyonny with a Blake. Probably.