Bayern AA overpowered?

[GulvkluderGuld]

Just had my 2nd CV game post-patch in the strike Ryujo and for the second time met this ship. It's AA is beyond ridicolous.

It is worse than a fully AA decked Colorado (which at least have the excuse of being tier 7 and fully AA upgraded). A cleveland with DF down doesn't even compare. 

And the ships in question aren't even set up for AA - they are secondary setups (I asked). So at most AFT and BFT, no aa module and no manual aa perk.

 

First game: Bayern in B cap on trident, a Kaiser is 3 km away. No other ships nearby (there are only 3 BBs left on the enemy team and the last was at the other end of the map)

2x4 TB squadrons, tier 6 planes vs a tier 6 ship. NONE of them makes it into normal manual drop range. 

 

Then tried attacking the Kaiser 3 km away, hoping to at least be able to hit that: NOPE, 7/8 planes shredded before they can drop.

Same story for DB attacks. You stand a better chance of hitting the aforementioned Colorado.

 

Second game: Trident, a Bayern in the A cap and a Farragut in the B cap alone. No CAs nearby.

Didnt notice that the BB was a Bayern class, so I tried to torp the DD. Lost all planes before making it into range.

 

So you ask, what about a full deck strike against this ship using all 4 squadrons? How about using DoTs?

Yeah well, I tried that in the second game when the Bayern came after me. 

He just killed the TB, took the DB hits and I didnt get a fire. And....even if set on fire, he can repair without fear, because no single DB squad will ever make it into range to light another.

 

So what is your experience out there? CV captains and Bayern captains. 

[aboomination]

Replays would be great!

 

Until then: Not OP...

[GulvkluderGuld]

Replays would be great!

 

Until then: Not OP...

 

Dont have the replays since i cant get the function to work (or because i am reinstalling WoWs all the time due to crashes).

 

I dont need help with basic stuff - although Syrchalis could probably teach me a thing or two - I were asking for CV player experience.

[aboomination]

I were asking for CV player experience.

 

 So what is your experience out there? CV captains and Bayern captains. 

 

 

[Nodorf_]

Boohoo! I can't oneshot a BB with my planes, better jump on forum and cry! Boohoo!

 

On a serious note...maybe the Bayerns were specced for AA? Looked at mine, 56 AA rating with AFT/BFT but no AA module, so not borderline OP imo. Sure, it's one of highest of all t6 BB's, but it's just good BB's finally get SOME defense against CV's, since cruisers most often at that tier leaves BB's behind and rush to their own death.

[xXx_Blogis_xXx]

sure it have good aa , but for sure, ryu can kill it , just learn better drop

[AgarwaenME]

Boohoo! I can't oneshot a BB with my planes, better jump on forum and cry! Boohoo!

 

You seem to have this confused for a typical BBaby thread.

[Pekoe_Darjeeling]

When you auto drop anything can be OP.

[fnord_disc]

This sounds like you spend too long in the AA envelope without attacking and just maneuvering around. Without Manual AA and or the AA module, Bayern has about 150 DPS at a marked target from the 105mm. The short range AA is pitiful, but even with about 200 DPS the ship would still need ~6 seconds on average to shoot down an RJ torpedo bomber. So you must have spent at least 40s or so in Bayern's AA range without dropping for the Bayern to have a realistic chance of shooting your planes down so quickly.

 

Even if the players were lying and specced for AA, the 105mm go to about 280 DPS. If we're generous and say the ship has 350 including the short range light AA, then she would still need 3.5 seconds per plane or about 25 seconds for all eight torpedo bombers.

 

The only way I can explain this is if you fly around a lot inside the AA range without dropping.

[GulvkluderGuld]

Boohoo! I can't oneshot a BB with my planes, better jump on forum and cry! Boohoo!

 

On a serious note...maybe the Bayerns were specced for AA? Looked at mine, 56 AA rating with AFT/BFT but no AA module, so not borderline OP imo. Sure, it's one of highest of all t6 BB's, but it's just good BB's finally get SOME defense against CV's, since cruisers most often at that tier leaves BB's behind and rush to their own death.

 

Yeah kinda Boohoo, but these are initial impressions. I think AA is mostly in a good place these days and I like the idea of tier 6 getting decent AA. 

What I dont like is when they get immunity from air, which seemed to be the case. As I said, hitting a Colorado would be easier.

 

The Bayern were secondary specced as posted (didnt get specifics, be one denied using AFT). 

 

sure it have good aa , but for sure, ryu can kill it , just learn better drop

 

What kind of drops do you do, close in or long range?

[GulvkluderGuld]

.....

The only way I can explain this is if you fly around a lot inside the AA range without dropping.

 

Might be bad RNG, but I was flying a straight line toward the Bayern one time, the other skirting through his long range aa (he was in a different cap).

When the planes were in range for manual drops, there were 1+2 left of 8 planes. I didnt even change their course once untill then.

2 of those 3 planes died while i lined up the manual drop, the last after i locked it in.

[warspite666]

As a Bayern player, I would say that the aa on the b hull is adequate but certainly not over powered, I would expect to knock out 1 or 2 aircraft per squadron on a given attack run from a cv. Maybee a case of rng excess?

[Syrchalis]

I dont need help with basic stuff - although Syrchalis could probably teach me a thing or two - I were asking for CV player experience.

 

Well, let's say it this way, even I have no experience with this matchup, because I don't play Ryujo and I don't play CVs anymore really. If my desire for WW2 naval warfare strikes I rather play russian DDs or any BB before I decide to quit again because bad RNG (a reason I love russian DDs because RNG is quite low in them).

 

Generally speaking, german BBs have insane long range AA - with funnily enough, low range for long range AA, but high DPS values. Manual AA skill makes those high caliber guns into 2-3 Clevelands worth of damage or 1 Cleveland with defensive AA fire active. My Scharnhorst only encountered one CV (I only played it a few times), but it absolutely destroyed any plane that got within 5km of it. I literally mean "destroyed", fighters came into edge of range, every 5sec one was down, this was a Hiryu I think. Even without manual AA perk the damage is "just" half as high. It's still enough. Especially if you know how to use it. ? Yes there is a tactic. Turn your butt towards the planes, drive away, turn away (yes this is actually good in this case) to give you the maximum amount of time before the CV repositioned. Any BB atm really can shoot down two squads with this tactic, because AA is this broken. Just noone needs it anymore because half of the BBs do this without even having to press WASD.

 

In other words - juuuuuuuuuust don't play CV. They are relatively weak and more importantly, CVs are no fun at the moment. Not rewarding, very frustrating, little counterplay against OP AA (because automatic) and no counterplay at all against defensive AA fire (just hope he doesn't find the button). Play russian DD, be good in it, wreck any DD/BB easily, even some CA, win games by capping late.

 

Edit: I checked, Bayern has 100 long range AA dps, this is little short of the 134 of Tirpitz. People claim Tirpitz has bad AA, but it doesn't. German BB relies heavily on manual AA perk. It is actually VERY good. So you can conclude the 100 of Bayern is pretty damn nasty for it's tier.

[Admiral_Noif]

Just had my 2nd CV game post-patch in the strike Ryujo and for the second time met this ship. It's AA is beyond ridicolous.

It is worse than a fully AA decked Colorado (which at least have the excuse of being tier 7 and fully AA upgraded). A cleveland with DF down doesn't even compare. 

And the ships in question aren't even set up for AA - they are secondary setups (I asked). So at most AFT and BFT, no aa module and no manual aa perk.

 

First game: Bayern in B cap on trident, a Kaiser is 3 km away. No other ships nearby (there are only 3 BBs left on the enemy team and the last was at the other end of the map)

2x4 TB squadrons, tier 6 planes vs a tier 6 ship. NONE of them makes it into normal manual drop range. 

 

Then tried attacking the Kaiser 3 km away, hoping to at least be able to hit that: NOPE, 7/8 planes shredded before they can drop.

Same story for DB attacks. You stand a better chance of hitting the aforementioned Colorado.

 

Second game: Trident, a Bayern in the A cap and a Farragut in the B cap alone. No CAs nearby.

Didnt notice that the BB was a Bayern class, so I tried to torp the DD. Lost all planes before making it into range.

 

So you ask, what about a full deck strike against this ship using all 4 squadrons? How about using DoTs?

Yeah well, I tried that in the second game when the Bayern came after me. 

He just killed the TB, took the DB hits and I didnt get a fire. And....even if set on fire, he can repair without fear, because no single DB squad will ever make it into range to light another.

 

So what is your experience out there? CV captains and Bayern captains. 

 

How Bayern's AA can be OP if her AA rate is 45 (54 with AA modification)? I think you might actually blame wrong ship if Bayern had a cruiser with strong AA ( such like Atlanta/cleveland) nearby that you might not see.

 

Overall, German BBs don't have long distance AA (about 5,4km or 6,4km)

[aboomination]

Manual AA skill makes those high caliber guns into 2-3 Clevelands worth of damage or 1 Cleveland with defensive AA fire active.

 

Are we still talking about the Bayern?

Maybe Clevelands without any AA optimization whatsoever. Those aren't exactly scary. Also 2-3? B to the S!

 

Cleveland AA with module, BFT and AFT

[Quetak]

I like Bayern's AA, before two days T7 JPN CV was sending two torp squads on me (i was alone). First squad didnt reached me, second droped torps, i dodged all and kiled another 2 planes from squad. For T6 it has realy very good AA. Have a captain with BFT/AFT.

[Syrchalis]

 

Are we still talking about the Bayern?

Maybe Clevelands without any AA optimization whatsoever. Those aren't exactly scary. Also 2-3? B to the S!

 

Cleveland AA with module, BFT and AFT

 

It's about the same. 110 on long range AA. It has more range of course. Bayern has that DPS without any modules or captain perks. It's pretty insane if you ask me. Long range AA dps is by far the most important. You can really neglect anything else.

[aboomination]

 

It's about the same. 110 on long range AA. It has more range of course. Bayern has that DPS without any modules or captain perks. It's pretty insane if you ask me. Long range AA dps is by far the most important. You can really neglect anything else*.

 

There isn't any module on this Cleveland that boosts AA dps directly. There is only one Skill that does multiply AA dps (BFT).

My guess is that "your" Bayern has BFT and AFT as well.

So they are not the same. Cleveland has WAY more oomph. Don't make me do the math.

 

ps: Running Manual AA on this captain and that's a true no fly zone.

 

* again BS - if you neglect 82 dps @ 5.1 km (effectively 192 dps) you can also neglect Bayern's 110 dps at a slightly longer range (with AFT) of 5.4 km.

 

pps: Where are your "2-3 Clevelands" now?

[Syrchalis]

 

There isn't any module on this Cleveland that boosts AA dps directly. There is only one Skill that does multiply AA dps (BFT).

My guess is that "your" Bayern has BFT and AFT as well.

So they are not the same. Cleveland has WAY more oomph. Don't make me do the math.

 

ps: Running Manual AA on this captain and that's a true no fly zone.

 

* again BS - if you neglect 82 dps @ 5.1 km (effectively 192 dps) you can also neglect Bayern's 110 dps at a slightly longer range (with AFT) of 5.4 km.

 

pps: Where are your "2-3 Clevelands" now?

 

The difference is that Cleveland is a dedicated AA ship, Bayern is a BB. That this BB has the same long range AA dps without any modules or captain perks is insane. If we are talking T9/10, fine, but not on T6.

[Nechrom]

Meanwhile the Texas (tier 5 BB), with BFT, AFT and AAMod2:

• 380 DPS @ 2.9 km
• 206 DPS @ 5.1 km

 That's without focus and/or MFCAA.

[aboomination]

 

The difference is that Cleveland is a dedicated AA ship, Bayern is a BB. That this BB has the same long range AA dps without any modules or captain perks is insane. If we are talking T9/10, fine, but not on T6.

 

Never skip math day. Good thing you don't have anything to say regarding balancing ships.

 

CV mafia is at it again 

Go play at tier 4 and slaughter helpless opponents.

 

ps: I doubt there will be many Bayerns who sport the AA module.

[Quetak]

If some ship has strong AA then just avoid it with planes. Its quite simple.

Its same like all CVs when see me in my Ishizuchi directly go and try to kill me asap because they know that it hasnt nearly any AA defence.

Are you going there to forum and make a topic how UP is Ishizuchi's AA?

[aboomination]

Meanwhile the Texas (tier 5 BB), with BFT, AFT and AAMod2:

• 380 DPS @ 2.9 km
• 206 DPS @ 5.1 km

 That's without focus and/or MFCAA.

 

Texas with AA mod is useless imo (main battery range).

She is fairly accurate and I wouldn't want to miss those early shots while crawling into position. Also, tier 7 matches with stock gun range? Fuark.

 

But that's probably just me.

[Syrchalis]

 

Never skip math day. Good thing you don't have anything to say regarding balancing ships.

 

CV mafia is at it again 

Go play at tier 4 and slaughter helpless opponents.

 

ps: I doubt there will be many Bayerns who sport the AA module.

 

Yeah yeah, CV mafia, when it's already world of battleships, confirmed by WG.

 

You obviously skipped realism day, here is the real math for you:

On T6, people have a 10 point captain at best, usually.

This means AFT for Cleveland, since no AA cruiser goes manual AA first. And manual AA for Bayern, because, as said numerous times, manual AA OP on german ships, AFT not so much. 100 long range DPS +100% = 200 long range DPS. Cleveland has 170-180 without BFT, but more range. Again, Cleve is a dedicated AA cruiser. If BBs are now allowed to have the same AA, what should CVs do in your totally unbiased opinion? Hunt DDs and DDs only, because every other ship gets automatic immunity?

 

Tell me more about "CV mafia" when you're obviously only interested in AA being so ridic on every ship aside from DDs that they can't even be attacked.

 

As for Texas - it's an abomination (hah, get it?). Straight up upgrade over New York - pay to win (in a sense). The AA on that thing is T9/10 worthy, Saipan can't attack it, so nothing can attack it.

[aboomination]

Syrchalis, on 26 August 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

And manual AA for Bayern

 

Maybe on (some) dedicated Bayern captains who don't value her good secondaries. Mine will be commanding the Bismarck, thus no manual AA.

 

"Realism" for you: I know good AA, Bayern's is mediocre-good. A good Cv player can punish her for sailing alone.

IF a player decides to boost it's AA to the max then he deserves to punish the CV as well because doing that comes at disadvantages.

 

Also why the butthurt? Just avoid Bayerns. Just like you avoid North Carolinas.

 

Again, how is her AA op? Don't have the time to compare it to the Colorado's but my guess is that it's not that big of a difference.