RNG, Is the WOWS Lotto getting worse?

[Redcap375]

Chaps,

 

Please read the following that was taken from a recent thread: With evidence.

 

Well, a game to show all the beauty of this game. Playing the Izumo, trying (together with Tirpitz) to kill Gneisenau staying afk broadside to us ~15 km away.

0 citadels, bunch of misses, overpens, pens with silly damage numbers... took us 5 mins to kill afk guy...

Thats WoWS for you, pure skill involved.

 

 

After various responses that didn't address the issue, I responded with:

 

"I think you are missing the gentlemen's point chaps.....Nothing about OP, nothing about strongest armour at that tier, nothing about HE.  Its about 2 ships taking 5 mins to sink a ship that is AFK. Not moving or turning, but AFK! Hes right, there is no skill involved if the mechanics makes it that everything is a lotto regarding hitting something and i believe it is getting worse.  When i play my Crusiers/CVs and go back to BBs like i did yesterday, i cant help but think that RNG is getting worse and some of the damage numbers are bat S888 crazy, esp in BBs.  I know what your thinking but i truly do. Perfect Shots with good leading completely missing when half hearted snap shots smash it and crit? Was truly shocked with some of the shots i was landing yesterday in my NAG. Where is the skill? 

 

So....

 

I understand aiming and ammunition, i understand where certain Citadels are on certain ships, i understand that RNG has to part to play in the game...But is it me or is it getting more unpredictable? Over-penning BBs in the same tier over and over again where the numbers suggest otherwise. Shots going all over the place (i understand dispersion) one minuet and not the next?

 

Being a CV/Cruiser captain mainly since the start and only really play BBs to get the extra XP , maybe i have noticed the difference more than someone who plays them all the time.  I remember the Warspite having laser guided shells that hit where you aimed them (skill).  The last match i played with her, well, shots ALL OVER THE PLACE, overpenning all the while against BBs of the same tier (I know it has a large shells) and when they did hit, caused little damage? With what? 16 inch shells or whatever it has.  Why put me in a bettle 

 

Was the same in the NAG...It was worse, and i know it hasn't got the best dispersion but shocking results.

 

At the end of the day i'm not that fussed as BBs are my third fav of the ship lines.  CVs still have RNG regarding bombers (which, to be honest is fine at the moment) and cruisers can fire shells all day long with shots that miss not noticed as much. 3/4 of cruisers use HE so over-pens and RNG issue are felt less. But i do truly believe that BBs RNG is becoming screwed up. How can we tell people how to lead, aim properly and at which part of the ship to hit if every time they do so it provides COMPLETELY different results.

 

I don't know, maybe its a good thing what WG is doing?  Would BBs become completely OP if everything worked as it should do (in real life) with shells that could penetrate certain amour actually doing so? With HE shells from a BB hitting a DD which would auto blow up and sink it? Skilled BB players would become too OP?

 

Hit results and RNG has, IMHO, become worse and more random that it ever has been.  I think it is taking the fun/skill away from BBs with their longer reloads thrown in to rub salt into the wounds when they miss.  Especially new guys that come into the game.  I for one, play BBs less and less because of it. 

 

Thoughts BB captains? Am I right chaps?

 

P.S. This is not whining in the slightest.

 

[xXx_Blogis_xXx]

so what u say ? even if they show broadside u want each time do cita hits ?

[Redcap375]

When you aim at that area of that ship, with the right ammunition, with the right weight of shell to right thickness of the enemy armour, at the right distance and the enemy showing you their broadside?

 

Well yes, why not?  

 

But considering the question didn't mention anything about causing cit all the time but RNG and results, i don't quite know where you pulled that question from?

[xXx_Blogis_xXx]

When you aim at that area of that ship, with the right ammunition, with the right weight of shell to right thickness of the enemy armour, at the right distance and the enemy showing you their broadside?

 

Well yes, why not?  

 

But considering the question didn't mention anything about causing cit all the time but RNG and results, i don't quite know where you pulled that question from?

 

sure by the mechanics you could do cita , but if rng dont want ? few days ago i remember montana did show me full broadside, and my yama u know no cita hits but did 15k,and it was 7 km from me , funny eh

[ColonelPete]

It did not change.

[Mayv]

BBs have only gotten accuracy buffs in the time I have been playing.

[Surmaaja]

BBs have only gotten accuracy buffs in the time I have been playing.

Overpens are the trend nowadays.

[Shirakami_Kon]

I don't know at which tier they get it, I just reached tier 5 with German BBs, and so far I know the tier 4 can get citadels, but at some point in the thech tree (my bet is tier 6) German BBs get a thing called turtleback, aka armor behind the actual armor the game tells you the BB has around the citadel. That makes, that BBs that have said turtleback no matter how many times you try, you wont citadel them at close range. Ever. Those BBs can only get citadels if you get blessed by RNGesus and He allows you to get a sniping shot from 15+km that instead of piercing the side of the ship goes through the deck avoiding the armor of the side. But like it happened with Tirpitz for long time now, if you aim directly at the side under the smokestack at close range you can't get citadels.

[Redcap375]

But is this amount of randomness right? Or have we just chosen to except it?  

 

Overpens are the trend nowadays.

 

Why? BBs vs DD and some cruisers yes, but why same tier BB vs BB? How are over pens becoming more often with some of the same ships knocking around, COL vs NAG, FUSO vs NEW? We have never had this many over pens like we do now-a-days.

 

 

[S4h3L]

Overpens are the trend nowadays.

 

what would my Baltimore and DM do for overpens from BBs 

[Zombie_Wizard]

But is this amount of randomness right? Or have we just chosen to except it?  

 

I feel this randomness is the only thing that gives cruisers a fighting chance at higher tiers ​. Without it, every turn while spotted and in range would be suicide.

 

The skill is not in aiming that one shot perfectly, it is in ​c​o​n​s​istently  ​taking well aimed shots, so the randomness evens out over time.

[damo74]

Can HE shells overpen on destroyers for example?

 

I noticed last night playing my Hipper, pumping shell after shell into DDs and each hit only doing 400-500 damage. I'd have been better off hurling insults at them at this rate.

 

Something seems off lately.

[Surmaaja]

Why? BBs vs DD and some cruisers yes, but why same tier BB vs BB? How are over pens becoming more often with some of the same ships knocking around, COL vs NAG, FUSO vs NEW? We have never had this many over pens like we do now-a-days.

It was just a silly reference of what I've gathered from streams and topics last days. Complaining about the overpens seems to be name of the game these days.

Fires? Dispersion? Pffhh that's so 2015...

[Spuggy]

Gotta love these topics where someone is screaming that they want pin point laser accuracy and infallible consistent results when they are using their ships.

 

 

When thinking about the accuracy of shots:

1. The ships we're sailing are from the early to mid 20th century and are using the technology from that era. Not modern day stuff we have now
2. The ships we're sailing are moving at 20-35 knts, on water, which causes pitch and roll.
3. The ships we're shooting at are usually also moving at 20-35 knts and possibly changing direction often
4. Targets are a long way off. Even engaging at 5km it would take you about an HOUR to walk to the other ship (assuming it's on land and flat etc) 
5. The weapons our ships are firing are big. These things are [edited]huge. It is a large artillery gun which isn't a barret 50 sniper rifle capable of 100 mm grouping at 1000 m. On land if the shell lands in the same field it's considered a hit.

 

When thinking about what damage a shell causes when it actually hits:

1. Even if it did hit, has it hit an un-armoured portion of the ship (all or nothing armour) and gone straight through
2. Has the shot even hit the part of the ship that your client has rendered? (who the [edited]knows?)
3. Would AP rounds from the 20th century always detonate or would there be some duds?

 

RNG is what it is. It's the randomness of real life. It's the fact that what these ships are trying to achieve when you actually think about it is mind boggling. How they even did it in the first place in reality is crazy.

 

So what can I say about it?

 

well..................

 

 

 

[anonym_EFwxJOPWzlER]

so what u say ? even if they show broadside u want each time do cita hits ?

 

I have been thinking exactly the same thing recently, only this morning i was detonated (not even broadside) on the very first salvo, i did not even get a chance to fire back.

 

I see teams lose ship after ship very quickly (my team and enemy team) and obviously lose the game, it's not because the players are bad, it's because RNG decides who wins and loses, RNG is fast ruining this game, it's just madness, i have seen players pound an enemy ship relentless and do little damage, yet they get a lot of damage quickly.

 

The skill needed in this game is decreasing fast, you might be an excellent shot but if RNG decides they are gonna miss or do little damage, that is the way it is at present

 

Detonation is the worst feature in this game

[G01ngToxicCommand0]

Well even a nearly immobile DKM Bismarck didn't made it easy for the Royal Navy to hit her with their guns: about 10% hit accuracy for the battleship calibre guns of the HMS Rodny and HMS King George V and closing the distance to about 3k meters didn't help either - guess real world RNG is still worse than the game's

 

The only RNG difference I believe I have observed is the increased amount of full penetration 0 damage shots on ships with non destroyed sections/full health ships and the increased amount of overpens and decrease in citadel hits when shooting at cruisers with BB main batteries, it appear that there are some defects in either the penetration or damage models either not triggering AP shells detonators or they have too long delays before detonation. WoT also had a long period where full pen 0 damage hits where so prevalent that is was becoming ridiculus to play when in half of the shots the crew would yell 'PENETRATION' but no damage. It was a deliberate feature that some hit locations had 0 hitpoints and therefore the tank could not lose HP when hit there and I believe that WG have stealth implemented that in WoWS as well. In the end WG removed that feature in WoT after the community burned the forum down several times...

[Redcap375]

Gotta love these topics where someone is screaming that they want pin point laser accuracy and infallible consistent results when they are using their ships.

 

 

 

Well that's both random and uncalled for "screaming" hummm? but at least you found a way to put a cool picture in didn't you lad, bless..

 

So i take it your in the cue of except it then? 

 

Very good information regarding real life vs Gaming with alot of  it of course being true m8. But I wonder how long the game would be if they did it to real life instead? You cant have both..

 

[ilhilh]

There was talk of some normalisation changes which I think have landed or are about to but otherwise, in answer to have things got worse?  no because we would have been told.  I know there are conspiracies about changes but they would tell us about changes to the mechanics.  The RNG has always been there and it has always been trolling you or trolling your target since the game started.  Randomly.  This game is about picking the right target, firing at the right time and getting your shells into the right ballpark to improve your chances of getting a citadel.  On the flipside it is about angling to reduce the chances of an enemy getting great hits on you.  The rest is up to RNG.

[Zombie_Wizard]

This game is about picking the right target, firing at the right time and getting your shells into the right ballpark to improve your chances of getting a citadel.  On the flipside it is about angling to reduce the chances of an enemy getting great hits on you.  The rest is up to RNG.

 

​This is exactly what I meant. RNG giveth and RNG taketh. Your skill doesn't affect a single salvo beyond aming at the right point. But if you keep aiming well, your skill will affect your avarage result .

[Redcap375]

Thanks ilhilh and Zombie m8, your probably right. After all Its not about sniper hitting the target with skill (precision aiming) its more about the avarage results like Wizard said. It just seemed that like it was getting worse regarding BBs that's all.  You know, when something doesn't feel right...

 

Anyway, back to grinding tier 10 IJN CV.

[YukiEiriKun]

Well .. I've noticed lot more overpens where before there would have been citadel hits. But can't really say are they happening too much. .. Well during a battle when salvo with nice dispersion hits the side of an rusky cruiser and only thing you get are overpens, the air is thick of curses. But ...

[chazwozza]

No skill needed for this game or any WG title tbh just a team of half capable players that seem to be on the same page will win the match

 

[it3llig3nc3]

I find this topic very interesting. It hit me as just this morning I saw this video from IChaseGaming https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPP6o4d2n34, in which (during the first few minutes) he talks about an issue that to me is similar to this.

 

While there is absolutely no factual evidence behind any theory, experiences are pointing into a direction to assume that the WoWs aiming mechanism has much more "hidden" parameter that is driven by statistic than a simple RNG and dispersion coefficient. 

I may even say that DEVs could be right by hiding these details from us as most probably knowing the precise mechanism may open ways to hack it or take unfair advantages.

 

I must say there is a huge dilemma around the WoWs aiming system mechanism as it has to deliver on two totally opposing expectations:

1. many players expect certain predictability and consistency --> so similar actions lead to similar results. This is driven more from the view that a computer game should have some easy or difficult expectations about what the player must to do achieve good results / outcome

2. on the other hand randomness in certainly expected not to make things too easy, boring or simple. Especially when it comes to long range shooting. This expectation is more driven from the reality angle as most of us want to believe we are playing some kind of simulated reality.

 

On the factual side if you read analysis about World War 2 Battleship gun performance (at least for the ships that fired their guns enough time in real battle situations to build statistic) you will see that US and Japanese BBs had to fire roughly 100 shells to active 2-3 hits. Some ships may have been a bit better (US automated radar based aim).

Clearly this level of hit rate is not acceptable in a computer game.

So WG had to come up with something.

 

My personal opinion is that if we compare the aiming mechanism between WoT and WoWs I can clearly see that the tank version FEELS a bit better in terms of balance between predictability and randomness.

HOWEVER - I cannot make a definitive proposal for WoWs as how the aiming system should work here that is A) better than we have now B) acceptable for the majority of the player base.

Anybody among you up to this challenge?

 

[Hedgehog1963]

Dealing with the likely effects of RNG is as fundamental to a game like WoWS as is using WASD.

[Easyway]

I must admit that game changed since last patch, destroyers dictate tempo of the game, guns can do some crazy damage and rate of fire is brutal, hitboxes, if there is 2 enemy ships next to each other, one 50m behind is unhitable, shells will stick to the 1st one like a magnet. But i guess that will change sooner or later.