T6 French Premium: Battleship Dunkerque Disappoints

[44smok]

Damage doesn't win games. Being able to push objectives does. Dunkek can't do it alone. She can support other people doing it, she can punish ships focusing other targets and block chokepoints when her flank is protected, but that effectively means she relies on teammates a lot more than on herself. My feelings up to now are Dunkek is effectively the fighter deck of battleships. A lot more useful and funnier to play but still of similarly limited use.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

Not many ships can push alone... Dunker is no worse than other BB mostly. Can arguably push better when vs 14" guns as you can bow in and advance.

 

Rapid fire smooth guns help a bit too.

[piritskenyer]

Damage doesn't win games. Being able to push objectives does. Dunkek can't do it alone. She can support other people doing it, she can punish ships focusing other targets and block chokepoints when her flank is protected, but that effectively means she relies on teammates a lot more than on herself. My feelings up to now are Dunkek is effectively the fighter deck of battleships. A lot more useful and funnier to play but still of similarly limited use.

 

Show me another T6 BB that doesn't get obliterated when pushing alone? Or T7. Hell, show me any BB that doesn't get annihilated if pushing alone against multiple enemy ships.

[th3freakie]

Doubt:

 

Has anyone else tried getting Fire Prevention on her captain? I did yesterday, and frankly seem to be feeling the results, with survival going markedly up, and gunboat DDs/CLs feeling much less annoying. 

 

I've also noticed you lads are not mentioning that she can really run away, like a DD or CA. You might need to bait the enemy BB into firing, but then you have ~30 secs to turn all the way around and bolt out of there. While running away you are harder to hit and gain distance every second. It's not exactly a winning move, but sometimes you just need to stay alive to fight another day minute.

[Psychocouac]

A copy pasta of the previous article. Thanks Battleship_Richelieu for that very well written Dunkerque guide. Should be added to the OP.

 

 

Pros:

• Fastest TVI Battleship with a max speed of 29,5 knots (31,5 with flag).
• Fastest TVI Gun traverse speed (36 seconds before ME).
• Strongest TVI Deck protection with 150mm.
• Late 30's All or nothing armor layout capable of frontally autobouncing AP shells up to a caliber of 14".
• Well armored superstructure.
• Average TVI Battleship ruddershift with 14 seconds.
• All forward main armament.
• Great "over the shoulder" turret firing arc.
• Highest TVI Battleship shells velocity with 870m/s for AP and 885 m/s for HE.
• Good maximum range of 18,2km.
• Second best TVI Battleship AP penetration value behind Arizona.
• Tied with Bayern for best TVI Battleship HE fire proc chance with a punishing 35% proc rate.
• Flat shell trajectory.
• Decent sigma of 1,7.
• Accuracy & Penetration are top-tier up to 14km.
• High-caliber, fast-firing, HE-lobbing 130mm secondaries.
• Good base range of 5km on her secondaries.
• High-caliber 130mm dual purpose guns with an impressive 5,2km base range.
• Only TVI Battleship capable of launching a Fighter seaplane.

Cons:

• Weakest TVI Battleship belt armor with 225mm.
• Bow armor can be overmatched by 15" and 16" guns.
• Second TVI widest turning circle radius with 730m.
• Below average torpedo protection of 27%.
• High dispersion value of 244.
• Accuracy & Penetration beyond 14km fall off quite rapidly.
• Turret loss can cripple her firepower.
• Main bulk of her AA is made up of short-range peashooters.
• 12 out of her 16 secondary guns are located on her stern, with only 6 capable of firing when broadsiding.
• Tall superstructure and long silhouette.
• Second worst TVI Battleship detectability range with 16,2/12km.

 

With these informations processed and tested ingame, the following conclusions can be easily drawn about Dunkerque:

• She is a Battlecruiser, or at best a Fast "pocket" Battleship.
• She is first and foremost a Cruiser-killer.
• She can easily react to Destroyers and keep track of them.
• She is capable of bow-tanking against 14" Battleships.
• She is vulnerable to 15" and 16" Battleships.
• She performs well at medium-close range thanks to her sigma.
• She performs poorly at long range because of her dispersion.
• She is quite mobile.
• She is polyvalent, with good AP and HE shells.
• She is vulnerable to flanking shots.
• She is resilient to Dive bombing attacks thanks to her tough deck protection.
• She is vulnerable to Destroyer Torpedo or Torpedo Bomber attacks because of her low torpedo resistance.
• She is very likely to be fired at with HE.

Alright, so Dunkerque is a Battlecruiser with weak AA and a tendency to bow-tank huh ? That does not tell us much more about her now does it ? Indeed, let us now take a look at those four "details" I mentioned earlier.

 

Dunkerque hidden strength number one: Turtleback armor.

This one is a big game changer, if you take a look at the bottom illustrations, you will notice something familiar, german style sloped armor behind the main belt.

Now don't get your hopes to high, Dunkerque's turtleback is only 50mm thick, which is just enough to protect against cruiser or destroyer AP citadels. It is however, tough enough to make it really hard for low and average caliber BB guns such as Sharnhorst's 11", König's 12", Dunkerque's own 13" and american or japanese 14" to score a meaningful penetration roll on anything but a perfectly flat angle.

This means that all of a sudden, your weak belt is no longer that weak, it becomes perfectly viable and even sound to turn and reposition in between hostile salvos, safe in the knowledge that your turtleback should prevent any excessive damage (RNG can still be nasty though, keep that in mind.)

A Kongo attempting a turn against a humble Furutaka's 8" guns firing AP is in for a surprise, Dunkerque definitely won't care. There is a world of difference between those two, yet often compared Battlecruisers in terms of survivability.

 

Dunkerque hidden strength number two: Secondaries placement.

This is what a ship chasing you has to deal with, 3 quadruple 130mm turrets firing HE shells at a fast rate (5 seconds/4,5 seconds with BfT) and long range (5km base/6km with AFT). Interestingly enough, those turrets actually fire volleys of 4 shells at once and are thus pretty good at saturating an area or hitting big targets.

Since Dunkerque also uses modern all-or-nothing armor, her stern will usually only suffer 1/10 overpenetrating or 1/3 penetrating rolls if given a slight angle.

This means that flashing your stern to a Destroyer, Cruiser or low caliber Battleship attempting to Torprush is actually a pretty good idea, especially once Dunkerque's amazing over-the-shoulder firing arc is taken into account.

In other words, she can dodge awkward attempts at surprise torpedoing/broadside penetration ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) like nobody and counter with minimal exposure over-the-shoudler salvos while her secondaries fart in the offender's general direction.

 

Dunkerque hidden strength number three: Ruddershift & Speed retention

Most of you already know that Dunkerque is a fast lady, but I wish to emphasize on this aspect of her, which is to often discarded by players eagerly attempting to replicate NorthCal and Izumo's playstyle.

We have seen with the two previous points that Dunkerque's hidden parameters make her good at turning in-between salvos and escaping torprushes.

What makes her even better at medium range (10-14km, her optimal range) is her ability to initiate a turn quite fast, while keeping her speed above that of her opponents.

Juking, zigzag sailing and over-the-shoulder salvos are Dunkerque's true bread & butter. While effective, bow tanking tends to leave Dunkerque ever more exposed as BB HE shells keep raining, cruisers start flanking and carriers line her up for a manual drops she cannot fend off with her own AA.

At the end of the day, for Dunkerque, speed IS armor: most fresh TVI Battleship captains will have trouble leading her properly, the slightest angle will ward off all but the highest calibers/unluckiest salvos and most importantly, she won't be an easy pick for metal fishes.

One very important note however: The difference between stock and Rudder Shift Upgrade is huge, so much even that such an upgrade is, in my opinion, absolutelymandatory.

 

Dunkerque hidden strength number four: Manual Anti-Air

With a grand total of sixteen long-range, large-caliber dual purpose 130mm guns, it should come as no surprise to the savvy players that manual AA shine on Dunkerque, yet I do not see it often mentionned.

Without manual AA or with only AFT, Dunkerque will at most shoot down a couple of planes per game... With MAA... She will do this:

• http://i.imgur.com/mvCycfc.jpg
• http://i.imgur.com/mE7PEZi.jpg
• http://i.imgur.com/YF7jnqj.jpg
• http://i.imgur.com/XMAA3Hm.jpg

Yeah.. Dunkerque with MAA no longer fears planes, it is a completely different ship ! Let's take a look at the informations I mentioned earlier:

• Dunkerque has a strong deck protection, meaning that TV-TVII Dive bombers will do bearable amount of damages (American DBs can still hurt aplenty, ofc.)
• Dunkerque's dual purpose guns have high base range.
• Manual AA allows you to focus fire a specific squadron in an efficient manner.

Now let's add some more common knowledge stuff:

• American CVs tend to deploy a single but highly resilient/dangerous Torpedo Bomber squadron until TVIII+
• Japanese CVs tend to deploy two or three frail and easily avoidable Torpedo Bomber Squadrons.

With this in mind, the following conclusion can be made:

• Against American CVs: Focus fire and cripple the TBS, shrug off the DBS(s).
• Against Japanese CVs cross-drops: Alternate between TBSs until each of them is down to 1 or 2 planes, shrug off DBSs.
• Against Japanese CVs follow-up drops: Focus one TBS down to halve the potential damage output, shrug off DBSs.

With both AFT and MAA, I have experienced the following results:

• Tier V carriers, especially japanese, are rendered harmless.
• Tier VI carriers, especially american, will suffer huge losses.
• Tier VII carriers will suffer losses, enough to drastically increase Dunkerque's survivability and contribution to her team's AA coverage.
• Tier VIII carriers will suffer a few losses, which is better than none.

This basically sums it up for AA. Also don't forget your shiny Sea Dewoitine for added protection and cocky CV trolling.

 

TL;DR/Conclusion about hidden strengths and misconceptions:

• Dunkerque's armor is actually pretty strong, provided one understands and makes use of its layout.
• Lack of WW1 design flaws (secondaries casemate, weak barbette/upper hull/deck/superstructure) and modern all-or-nothing gives her surprising resilience for a TVI Battlecruiser.
• Her TVI counterparts all suffer from the aforementioned flaws.
• The combination of speed, agility and knowledge of her armor capabilities against incoming fire trumps bow-tanking in terms of overall survivability.
• Bow-tanking remains a sound tactic in specific combat situations such as 1v1 BB exchange, target chasing, objective holding etc..
• Showing her stern to hostiles attempting a close quarter/torpedo rush is intended by her design.
• Her AA starts weak, but becomes strong.

 

Golden rules of engagement when sailing Dunkerque:

• Targeting order: Cruisers > BB > DD, prioritize DD if they are stupid enough to get to close.
• Don't be a lonewolf, your guns are at their best when exploiting opposing cruiser and battleships evasive manoeuvres triggered by allies.
• A low-level Dunkerque is a carrier's delight, a manual AA+AFT Dunkerque not so much, but it is still not a reason to shy away from friendly cover, or better, actually escort other BBs with your newfound pewpewing prowess.
• Stick to medium range, between 8-14km, where her guns are the most accurate and her shells the most likely to penetrate.
• Pay attention to speed, it is very easy to overextend with Dunkerque if one sticks to maximum speed.
• Do not rely on bow-tanking to much, for it negates all the advantages intended by her design: Fast reaction speed and adaptability.
• Do not try to sit back and snipe at long range, Dunkerque's dispersion and loss of penetration beyond 16km will reduce one's contribution to virtually nothing.
• Do learn to gauge when to push and bow-tank, for Dunkerque can hold and contest points like few other TVI BBs can.
• Try to avoid attracting the attention of more than one or two ships, so that one's flanks remain secure.
• Do not fear turning/showing your stern to a smaller ship.
• It is better to turn away at full french speed and punish over-the-shoulder than sink to a yolo torprush.
• Turn in-between hostile salvos when one needs to reposition.

Know your enemies:

• USN TV-VII BBs: Weak barbettes & upper hull, strong main belts and medium underwater belts = Shoot at the barbettes for turret magazine citadels.
• IJN TV-VII BBs: Strong barbettes, medium main belt, medium/weak upper hull, very weak underwater belt = Shoot at the waterline for main belt/underwater belt citadels.
• USN & IJN TVIII BBs: Strong barbettes & upper hull, medium main belt and weak underwater belt = Shoot at the waterline for main belt/underwater belt citadels.
• KM TV-VIII BBs: Kruppstahlstronk™ main belt with turtleback, paperthin upper hull, superstructure and underwater belt = Shoot at the upper hull/superstructure for lulzy penetration rolls.
• Her Majesty Ship, Grand Old Lady Warspite: Medium barbettes, weak upper hull, medium main belt, weak underwater belt = You should have no problem penetrating anywhere. Lady Warspite dishes out as much as she takes though...
• Rival MN Dunkerque: Weak belt with turtleback, medium underwater belt = shoot at the waterline and hope for a hit below the water line for citadels, superstructure shots will do mediocre damage.
• Anything that shows its bow/is sharply angled = Spam HE.

To bow tank or not to bow tank ?.. That is the question !

• 1v1 against anything with a gun caliber equal or inferior to 14" = Maginotstronk !
• 1v1 against Bayern, at a range superior to 12km = Oui ! Smelly krautbateau cannot hit the side of a barn, do angle the ship slightly (about 15%) to protect your bow against frontal penetrations though.
• 1v1 against Bayern, at a range inferior to 12km = Non ! Krautbateau 380mm Bäguettenwerfer will hit.
• 1v1 against Warspite = Sacrebleu non ! You don't want to reenact Mers-el-Kébir, do you ?
• 1v1 against anything with a gun caliber equal or superior to 16" = Non, stick to zigzag, juking and lobbing HE or AP if they are kind enough to show their broadside.
• When contesting objectives or chokepoints, provided that there are no Warspite/Bayern/Big 7 to overmatch your bow or Atlanta/Budyonny/Myoko to turn you into a crème brûlée = Oui! Otherwise = NON !

What about upgrades and captain skills ?

• First Slot: Main Armament Modification, because losing 50% or even 100% of your firepower iznogoud.
• Second Slot: Aiming System Modification or Anti-Aircraft Guns Modification for a slight buff in accuracy & secondaries efficiency or a quite significant increase of AA prowess.
• Third Slot: Damage Control System Modification, this one is a nobrainer, f*ck fires.

• Fourth Slot: Steering Gears Modification to pull off those sicknasty jukes, torpedobeats and emergency bow-tanking manoeuvers.

• Consumables: Premium Damage Control & Repair Parties, Premium Fighter is optional.

Captain build:

• 1st Perk = Basic of Survivability because f*ck fires.
• 2nd Perk = Expert Marksman to keep up with underage boats and shoulder-fire like a trenchcoat wearing, badass resistance fighter when krautbateau try to torp your alsace-lorraine.
• 3rd Perk = Superintendent for more Health, more Sea Dewoitine goodness > High Alert because, once again, f*ck fires OR Vigilance if metal fishes annoye you.
• 4th Perk = Manual Fire Control for AA Armament, it's time for Magicarp to turn into Gyarados.
• 5th Perk = Advanced Fire Training for more secondaries, more AA.
• 6th Perk = High Alert/Vigilance or Superintendent depending on which you picked as 3rd skill.
• 7th Perk = Basic Fire Training for more AA, more secondaries, can you see the pattern already ?
• 8th Perk = Expert Loader, to perform a quick mid-reload ammo swap when a Sharnhorst notices your love for his sweet, tender 45mm upperbelt and starts bowtanking, or when a pesky DD pops out of thin air.

Survivability Expert, Manual Control for Secondary Armament and Jack of All Trades are useless, at best Preemptive Maintenance can be considered if you REALLY fear losing your turrets. Personally, I have lost a turret in about 3 games out of 100 thus far...

 

[Dilight]

i uploaded a typical Dunker Battle:

http://www.file-upload.net/download-11912983/20160905_110448_PFSB506-Dunkerque-1940_13_OC_new_dawn.wowsreplay.html

 

if you never opend a wows replay file:

If the Operating System ask you how to start it , then navigate to your World of Warships Folder and choose World of Warships.

Plz allow me some Comments:

In the first Minutes i tryed to get south but realised that i was alone so i turned and gone back. 

After i'd seen some Reinforments i turned and choosen to push .

You can see that the Dunker Guns are realy realy poor.

But the Ship is fast and agil and it can take tank some Damage.

 

[Captain_Ktosiek]

 

Just a quick rebuttal: if you have 54k average in those 91 games you don't 'MOST of the time' get 100k+ battles, it's mathematically impossible. You also have a 33% survival rate, which to many would imply that from your 54% victories with the ship you been carried a few times at least. 

 

Glad you like it, and I don't think she is bad either, but objectively she aint as good as you're claiming. 

(...)

 

Hehehe, nice to see some shitstorm at me, after a reply posted while being drunk. Anyway, I will still argue about this!

 

Let's say, it was perceptible for me as the most common result.  

And it's of course possible, just look at the democratic elections!

If party A got 32% votes, party B 28% votes, party C 22% votes and party D 18%, then which one of them got the most/majority of votes?

Then look at the same with the battle results of

1. Up to 35 k

2. 35-70 k 

3. 70-100k

4. Over 100k 

This way having over 100k result as the "most" is mathematically possible, isnt it?

 

Anyway, cheers. 

Accirding to merit now, I'm very glad of some really wise opinions posted above, that pointed, what was too hard for me to describe. 

 

What I'd recommend as a conclusion for this discussion is, Dunkerque isn't any better, or any worse than others Tier VI BB, it's just different than any other. Some would go crazy about her, and the others would go mad, she's simply not for everyone. 

 

Cheers. 

 

[RUSSIANBlAS]

Low survival rate does not necessarily mean one has been carried. I'm usually a lot more willing to push than other 15km sniper BB on my team so I can make something happen... So I'm often the first to blow up.

 

Might take Manual AA when the time comes, Dunker's vulnerability to torp bombers is one of her major weaknesses. Rest can be worked around more or less but there's little one can do when the stacked IJN TB come knocking. I seem to be saying that about CV a lot recently but it's what the BB player has to deal with if there are a reasonable number of CV players on the server.

[mtm78]

Captain_Ktosiek, on 05 September 2016 - 06:23 PM, said:

What I'd recommend as a conclusion for this discussion is, Dunkerque isn't any better, or any worse than others Tier VI BB, it's just different than any other. Some would go crazy about her, and the others would go mad, she's simply not for everyone. 

 

Cheers. 

 

The best description involves skill ceiling and floor and was the most plausible in explaining the differences in opinion between both camps. Low skill floor -> easy to be decent in, low skill ceiling -> hard if not impossible to get more out of the ship then any random mediocre player. 

 

I do think once more cruisers will be in the battles she will be even more effective, so I am wondering how the server stats will look in say 3 months. 

[olmedreca]

Its stats are good, even surprisingly good, for a ship that probably requires more adjusting then your average run of the mill BB.

[Poster_2015]

I can agree in general about the skill ceilings and floors when it come to ships. However im not sure i agree with Dunquerke assessment. It has multiple qualities of a ship that actually rewards top level play. The most important are:

 

- Rather weak but strange armor. Its not about pointing bow towards enemy - as you could see Flamu did just that in his video, and it produced meh results vs Warspite. Dunquerke cannot tank bow on vs anythin with bigger guns. It can however comfortably angle around 20-25 degree and deflect 16inch shells with ease - thats steeper angle then any other BB can use to keep the angle on rear turret, but its NOT bow on. Going bow on only makes you easier to penetrate frontally, while it doesnt reinforce your side belt in any way. 

 

- Weak but extremely accurate guns. Guns that are way less prone to RNG then other battleships, but require knowledge of when enemies are actually vulnerable and their weakspots. Im getting better and better at dealing dmg with Dunquerke, and it is capable of dealing really nice dmg when you jump on opportunities. Its a BB i tend to hold fire the most and wait - because firing "because guns are ready" will net you very bad results. Just be patient and people will expose themselves somewhere. On the other hand when such opportunities present, I have way less of "perfectly broadside cruiser , well aimed salvo - 2 overpens for 2700" like i get in iowa and such. If they expose themselves they get punished hard. 

[piritskenyer]

Poster_2015, on 06 September 2016 - 10:13 AM, said:

[...]

 

- Rather weak but strange armor. Its not about pointing bow towards enemy - as you could see Flamu did just that in his video, and it produced meh results vs Warspite. Dunquerke cannot tank bow on vs anythin with bigger guns. It can however comfortably angle around 20-25 degree and deflect 16inch shells with ease - thats steeper angle then any other BB can use to keep the angle on rear turret, but its NOT bow on. Going bow on only makes you easier to penetrate frontally, while it doesnt reinforce your side belt in any way. 

 

[...]

 

 

That's a very interesting point, may warrant testing.

 

[...]

 

- Weak but extremely accurate guns. Guns that are way less prone to RNG then other battleships, but require knowledge of when enemies are actually vulnerable and their weakspots. Im getting better and better at dealing dmg with Dunquerke, and it is capable of dealing really nice dmg when you jump on opportunities. Its a BB i tend to hold fire the most and wait - because firing "because guns are ready" will net you very bad results. Just be patient and people will expose themselves somewhere. On the other hand when such opportunities present, I have way less of "perfectly broadside cruiser , well aimed salvo - 2 overpens for 2700" like i get in iowa and such. If they expose themselves they get punished hard. 

 

This point I only agree with the low alpha. the guns still have beastly short-to-mid range penetration, which will catch many BB's by surprise.

 

 

 

[Lasalle]

Hello,

 

I just bought (first buy on WoW since the very begining of WOT) the ship a fews days ago I should have looked the IChase video before.

 

Put it simply, the Dunkerque in the game is terrible and for several points its really looks like mistake from developpers.

 

First visibility, ok the ship is big and spot easily which is perfectly normal (the "T10 camouflage special Dunkerque seems btw useless), however Dunkerque also have a high watchtower and should be able to see ennemies from a certain distance. When you are shooting a class V carreer at 8km and it just vanished you are just WTF ?

 

Second, the speed issue. The max speed is 29.5 kn... which was the speed of the Strasbourg which had better armor. The Dunkerque speed was 31kn... Please fix this issue.

 

Third and main issue : the guns ! Completly inaccurate ! Their is two points here, first the inaccuracy of the Dunkerque was a long distance shot (30km - 40km) problem due to gas issue, not a problem at 18km . Against a steady full flanked cruiser Dunkerque can't make more than 3 on 8 shot at 6 km (with a module putting max dispersion at 227m which seems correct on paper but the paper is misleading) which is stupid (sorry for my french). I have the feeling that the real dispersion is way upper than the 240 originaly stated. I have seen plently of ship which had more dispersion maximum but behave so much better in the actual game. With my 227 dispersion I may have only seen 4/4 shot accuratly landing one or twice for 30 games. I have two problems with this dispersion under 18km:

1) Either the 240m dispersion is an error (the real value is upper or the value isn't implemented on battle) or the average dispersion is way higher than on other battleship and this is an information you need to communicate when people are putting money on the line

2) This dispersion average is just historically incorrect : only at high degree of the turret (which we logically cannot do in WoWS) and caused by gas ejection which reduced the precision from one the two gun if he is fire rapidely after the first one. If their are shot at the seem moment (which is mandatory the case in the game), the problem just don't happen

 

Last but not least the firepower. Globally HE beheave quitte good but AP are just a joke. On the stats side you see that Dunkerque has HE doing not too much damage but can put ennemy into fire very quickly which is both ok for the game balance and match the historical reality. However, the AP..... what a pity !!!!!

 My issue here is that the AP of the battleship are just irrelevant. When you hit (lucky you) the average damage of a AP shoot in battle is 1 000 HP and at this point it's an honest mistake from developpers or French bashing I don't know but it makes the ship basically useless (but WoWS thanks you for your money).

For the REAL naval gun performance please check my words on :

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNFR_13-50_m1931.php (Dunkerque 330 mm)

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_15-52_skc34.php (Bismarck 380 mm)

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_14-50_mk11.php (New Mexico 356 mm)

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_11-545_skc34.php (Scharhorst 280 mm)

 

You can the on the ammunition sida that the Dunkerque both in AP and HE have the best bursting charge (matched only by the tirpitz for HE)  and should do the more damages. Both in stats and in battle that's not the case.

Now looking on the range side... the best range also (yes that means the french 330 mm had better range than the Bismarck)

And finally the armor penetration with AP ammunition: against side armor it's only second by the Tirpitz by arround 30 mm at 23 km the 330mm was able to penetrate 342mm side armor, which means I think every ship he is supposed to face in MM, so at 15km their should be no problems especially that the guns are able the fire long distance with reduced elevation with means more shoot on the belt and less on the deck.... well yes it should ^^.

If game if the range is ok (doesn't matter with the dispersion), the penetration and average damage are generally close to non existant. which make both not sense historically and for the game balance.

 

As a conclusion Dunkerque was supposed to be the fast battleship it was with high speed, good manoeuvrability, very powerful guns with consistent precision against few armor (citadel well protected, the rest of the ship not), no torpedo, very poor AA and large size. 

In the game the bad points are there as they should be. The good points have been destroyed which make a terrible ship.

 

Please developpers fix this issue for the sake of the historical realilty, people money and game balance.

 

Honestly it's the first time I buy a premium ship/tank/plane and I probably won't do that again, thanks for the experience.

 

[Poster_2015]

Well first your part about dispersion is DOUBLE wrong. Dunquerke had poor dispersion in real life, and it has great one in game. Lets elaborate

 

- IRL Dunquerke had 4 gun turrets which always increases dispersion - guns are closer together and mountings have to be lss massive. 

- Dunquerke had fast shells, which again always increases dispersion.

- There is no "magical french reason" , that a ship with gun characteristics all increasing dispersion would be more accurate then their contemporaries. Same with Richelieu or Italian BBs - they had bad dispersion IRL.

 

- In game Dunquerke has great shell grouping and amazingly low dispersion. Low for a BATTLESHIP. Remember its a game where a player in a BB and CA should ideally be balanced (whether straight or rock-paper-scissor is irrelevant). One of ways WG achieves that is by giving ALL battleships huge unrealistic dispersions. Compare Dunquerke to other BBs and you will see its accurate. Only flaw is that it doesnt seem to gain much accuracy as it gets closer - so 6km shooting while good is not as great as 13km by comparison - where dunquerke has cruiser-like precision.

 

I agree with you on the damage part - both AP and HE shells should at least have New Mexico/Fuso 14" values if not a bit higher. This is obviously done for balance reasons, and maybe they could tweak it a BIT - but not much.

[piritskenyer]

Hello,

[load of bollox]

 

Let me get this straight:

You have 57 PvP battles in WoWs, your highest regular tier is IV, your average damage is barely enough for T2 and you go and buy a T6 premium ship? Are you out of your damn mind?

[th3freakie]

Hello,

 

I just bought (first buy on WoW since the very begining of WOT) the ship a fews days ago I should have looked the IChase video before.

 

Put it simply, the Dunkerque in the game is terrible and for several points its really looks like mistake from developpers.

 

First visibility, ok the ship is big and spot easily which is perfectly normal (the "T10 camouflage special Dunkerque seems btw useless), however Dunkerque also have a high watchtower and should be able to see ennemies from a certain distance. When you are shooting a class V carreer at 8km and it just vanished you are just WTF ?

 

 

Welcome to the game. Hope you will stick around and learn to enjoy it

 

I'm replying to this part to correct a misconception you seem to have brought from WoT. In the Tanks game, the vehicles have different ranges of vision. That is to say, they have different limits on how far they can detect other tanks. These values can be changed by equipment such as coated optics and binoculars. 

 

In WoWs every single ship can see all the way to the ends of the map. There are no differences in how far you can detect an enemy, regardless of ship height. The Tachibana and the Yamato, for example, can both see all the way to the horizon. What makes a difference in stealth is how visible each ship is. That is to say, how far does a ship project it's image. This is where each ship is different. So using the Dunkerque for example, has a Surface Detectability Range of 16,4 km. That means every single ship that has a line of sight to it and is at 16,4 km or less, can see it. It also means no ship can see it beyond 16,4 km. The same is true of a DD like for example the Izyaslav, but using the 6,7 km value.

 

Then there are some variations on what the value really is in two cases: Air Detectability Range, which is a different value but works the same; and an increase in the Detectability ranges (surface and air) whenever you fire your guns or when you are on fire.

[Psychocouac]

Well first your part about dispersion is DOUBLE wrong. Dunquerke had poor dispersion in real life, and it has great one in game. Lets elaborate

 

- IRL Dunquerke had 4 gun turrets which always increases dispersion - guns are closer together and mountings have to be lss massive. 

- Dunquerke had fast shells, which again always increases dispersion.

- There is no "magical french reason" , that a ship with gun characteristics all increasing dispersion would be more accurate then their contemporaries. Same with Richelieu or Italian BBs - they had bad dispersion IRL.

 

- In game Dunquerke has great shell grouping and amazingly low dispersion. Low for a BATTLESHIP. Remember its a game where a player in a BB and CA should ideally be balanced (whether straight or rock-paper-scissor is irrelevant). One of ways WG achieves that is by giving ALL battleships huge unrealistic dispersions. Compare Dunquerke to other BBs and you will see its accurate. Only flaw is that it doesnt seem to gain much accuracy as it gets closer - so 6km shooting while good is not as great as 13km by comparison - where dunquerke has cruiser-like precision.

 

I agree with you on the damage part - both AP and HE shells should at least have New Mexico/Fuso 14" values if not a bit higher. This is obviously done for balance reasons, and maybe they could tweak it a BIT - but not much.

 

Same problem on Richelieu and Jean Bart. Was solved really easily by a timer which delay each shots, preventing the loss of accuracy. So the gun itself isn't inaccurate and that's why the devs can balance those parameters without being unhistorical. 

[Lasalle]

Thanks for yours precisions th3freakie (true I have played a lot of WoT but not so much of WoWS since the end of the beta^^)

 

Poster : "In game Dunquerke has great shell grouping and amazingly low dispersion. Low for a BATTLESHIP. " No, just no. On the paper it's bad but not terrible but my issue is when I watch replay with Tirpizt or Gneisenau, which have higher dispersion value on their wiki, they have of course bad dispersion but it's seems to me that it's not as bad as the Dunkerque. Seems in game with other BB with, of course the fact that the shoot hit or not is on the player but the dispersion is about the ship and honestly Dunkerque guns are nearly irrelevant (which seems to be the opinion of most of youtube ship test). 

I was wondering if there was no mistake as there was on WoT on the AMX 40 for memory which had a speed in game which has never reach half the value presented ^^.

 

 

[22cm]

 

Let me get this straight:

You have 57 PvP battles in WoWs, your highest regular tier is IV, your average damage is barely enough for T2 and you go and buy a T6 premium ship? Are you out of your damn mind?

Lol,  and still he shares with us his great experience regarding ships.  If that is not courage,  bravado and manliness,  I dont know what it is.  I see big balls.

 

[Poster_2015]

 

Same problem on Richelieu and Jean Bart. Was solved really easily by a timer which delay each shots, preventing the loss of accuracy. So the gun itself isn't inaccurate and that's why the devs can balance those parameters without being unhistorical. 

 

No it wasnt. It was improved by that, but it wasnt by no means "solution" that rivalled accuracy of 2 or 3 gun turrets (which also used same mechanics). Pretty much every gun was "perfectly accurate" in WW2. The accuracy of gun was far better then needed - the real accuracy was depending on mountings and fire control. So gun itself indeed wasnt inaccurate, but its meaningless.

 

Thanks for yours precisions th3freakie (true I have played a lot of WoT but not so much of WoWS since the end of the beta^^)

 

Poster : "In game Dunquerke has great shell grouping and amazingly low dispersion. Low for a BATTLESHIP. " No, just no. On the paper it's bad but not terrible but my issue is when I watch replay with Tirpizt or Gneisenau, which have higher dispersion value on their wiki, they have of course bad dispersion but it's seems to me that it's not as bad as the Dunkerque. Seems in game with other BB with, of course the fact that the shoot hit or not is on the player but the dispersion is about the ship and honestly Dunkerque guns are nearly irrelevant (which seems to be the opinion of most of youtube ship test). 

I was wondering if there was no mistake as there was on WoT on the AMX 40 for memory which had a speed in game which has never reach half the value presented ^^.

 

 

 

 

Well if you think you can judge dispersion by youtube videos which show hand picked games where rng blessed the poster, good luck to you good sir . Still im not sure what you want from us, seems you know best of us all what is Dunquerke

[piritskenyer]

Lol,  and still he shares with us his great experience regarding ships.  If that is not courage,  bravado and manliness,  I dont know what it is.  I see big balls.

 

 

Blind ignorance can oftentimes be confused for big balls. See trench warfare.

[Sea_viper]

I want to comment on a point regarding angling 20-25 degree instead of bow on. It is only a trick to make people shoot at your belt and autobounce. If the enemy know what he is doing, he can shoot through your bow regardless of that small angle. Of course it is a good trick, but it cannot be relied upon. (This is from my experience of driving the Warspite around)

[Kamikazesushi]

I bought this ship yesterday and despite her firepower is not Fuso level this ship is really fun to play. I can recommend her to all. She is really unique and entertaining. Here are my impressions:

 

Pros

+ Amazing looks.

+ Good turret placement, rotation and firing angles.

+ Speed...which you often need to run because your armor is week. And not only speed, she accelerates like a cruiser (if you turn, slow down etc).

+ French ship, you can make surrender jokes all day.

+ Surprisingly good AA. It looks weak on the first look but you have  half of your DPS in long range guns...which are the longest range AA guns on T6.   Even with new captain, without all the skills, it takes down some planes. I intend to go AFT + manual AA because all other skills look useless.

+ Cheap. Really, compare this ships price to Arizona and Warspite, there is quite a difference.

 

Cons (all can be somehow compensated if you keep them in mind)

- Bad survivability (but you can run away fast like a true French and let your allies to do the job).

- Low caliber guns. Can be compensated either by shooting surprisingly strong HE shells vs angled BBs or how I mostly did - shooting AP at the superstructure, which gives you some pens every time.

- Low DPM. (On paper. But you can use your guns almost all game due to your speed, turret traverse and firing angles.)

- Fast shells. This is actually a good thing but since I am not used to it after 3 games it made me miss a lot.

- Secondaries look OP but are not very usefull. Range is nice, but shoot mostly back. Dont think it is viable to go secondary build given your low survivability and only tier 6.

- Bad dispersion on longer ranges.

- There is no captain named Jacques. Only found one Pierre, which is also ok. But I wanted Jacques.

 

How to make France great again?

You have low survivability, but cant effectively snipe. Use your speed to push forward so your guns can hit stuff. But carefull not to get focused hard. Be prepared to run if outnumbered (French pun intended) so you can heal up and come back into the fray. Use your speed as much as you can - it is really the best strenght. Forget bow-in reversing...90 % of the time it is a bad thing to do and you lose your main strenght (speed). Type French surrender jokes into chat all game and have fun.

[Whiteridder038]

The speed is sure a think to watch out for. I had some games that I was already close to the enemy without noticing it. Other than that I really like the ship.

[th3freakie]

The speed is sure a think to watch out for. I had some games that I was already close to the enemy without noticing it. Other than that I really like the ship.

 

True that. Spending the whole game in max speed will get you way out of position.

 

On the other hand, the combination of speed and (apparently) bad reputation means you can get into absurd situations where you are alone running away from a group of enemies, you have left the range of the enemy BBs but the enemy CAs haven't realized and keep following you, way ahead of their cover. Then you use the good over-the-shoulder arcs of the Dunkerque and delete the cruisers who really should have known better.