T6 French Premium: Battleship Dunkerque Disappoints

[Capt_QuoNiam_2015]

By the Way the ship can be a good learning ship to make you think more strategically, work your placement, look at what allies and enemies are doing and understand High tiers gameplay. 

To be blunt, this ship can help you stay in shape by practicing with a demanding ship that forces you to make the most of the only few things you get.

[JohnA87]

From what i have seen in reviews and gameplay i struggle to see why people defend her, ok she got speed and forward pointing batteries.. In return she burn as a cinder, severely lack armor, very bad secondaries, virtually no AA and her guns can hardly hit the broadside of a barn and when they actually hit you will probably not penetrate..

 

I do wish for an OP ship but i do want a competetive one.. What is speed worth if you cannot solve the task when you Get there? Either because your firepower is lacking or your armor does not keep you alive, what will all that forward pointing firepower help you if you Are so "untanky" that you need to run?

 

Ok you say it cannot be that bad? Say then that you Get into a 10km fight with a BB or a tier 6 Cruiser from what i have seen the enemy BB can broadside you without fear and due to bigger guns will still outdmg you, either with AP (no im not speaking of 380mm bow overmatch) as they have more guns and higher calliber (fuso, NM and arizona) or stuggling they will simply burn u with HE, not fun not competetive.. Say the advesary is a cruiser, surely you will counter that AS you Are a BB? Ok if it broadsides u, fine, if not you will burn.. And your returndamage will be bad as you either miss or bounces (ok you will score some Nice dmg here and there, but at that range any other t6 BB would rip the cruiser to shreds without issue)...

 

I have NOT played this ship so it is purely based on what i have seen from others, yet to be competetive this ship need more strongpoints.. I do not speak of OP buffs but something to offset its many MANY weaknesses as it simply seems extremely situational and mostly outright bad atm...

[ShinGetsu]

  her guns can hardly hit the broadside of a barn and when they actually hit you will probably not penetrate.. 

 

Nah, from what I saw, her gun are very accurate, it's just that on many video you see people aiming with her guns as if they're playing a Fuso. Which obviously doesn't work since the 330 have very fast shells.

It's like when you're going from Amagi to Izumo : Izumo guns are more accurate, but it takes a little time to adapt to it given the change in balistic.

 

Well, anyway, I was in need for a premium tier 6 and I want neither Arizona nor Warspite. Dunkerque looks fantastic and still fun to play so I think I'll still buy it. If worst comes to worst, WG will probably buff it sooner or later. Hell, she can even be buffed before her release. 

After all Atago was buffed once, Tirpitz was buffed 3 or 4 times, Atlanta was buffed twice... 

[JohnA87]

 

Nah, from what I saw, her gun are very accurate, it's just that on many video you see people aiming with her guns as if they're playing a Fuso. Which obviously doesn't work since the 330 have very fast shells.

It's like when you're going from Amagi to Izumo : Izumo guns are more accurate, but it takes a little time to adapt to it given the change in balistic.

Situational at best, but then i Wonder what review you have seen? The only half positive review i have seen is Aerroon's, Jingles review for example illustrate my point very well, Flamu's and iChase also to a certain extent..

[ShinGetsu]

Situational at best, but then i Wonder what review you have seen? The only half positive review i have seen is Aerroon's, Jingles review for example illustrate my point very well, Flamu's and iChase also to a certain extent..

 

This one seems to be the most objective IMO :

 

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/58950-premium-ship-review-dunkerque/

 

She comes to the same conclusion as the other in term of competitiveness, but don't forget the good sides and takes the fun factor into account.

[Darth_Glorious]

 

This one seems to be the most objective IMO :

 

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/58950-premium-ship-review-dunkerque/

 

She comes to the same conclusion as the other in term of competitiveness, but don't forget the good sides and takes the fun factor into account.

 

And this is her 163 k dmg game (the same LittleWhiteMouse).

~

[JohnA87]

 

AS you say this one also Agree that the ship is not competetive, it however recommend her out of sheer fun.. 

 

While i Agree that fun is important and indeed why most people play games i still find it unessesary to create ships that Are uncompetetive, afterall Are not balance something to strive for?

 

[mtm78]

I really like Duncan (or Dunkin donuts). She offers something different at T6 and is a fun ship. You have to be careful when playing her but she can do extremely well if you get your positioning right. Having 8 barrels at the front makes her a real cruiser killer and some battles are citadel central. Like this one :

 

Spoiler

 

 

Ok the AA is crap but at T6 this is not a huge problem. The secondaries can be great, if you enemy is in the right place, i.e. at you stern !!! So if you are looking for something different, that can be challenging to play and fun, then Duncan I highly recommend. 

 

Quoted to emphasize a different sound in this thread. During testing my average damage with Dunq was close to my damage in Scharnhorst.. The lousy dispersion hurts, the inability to tank hurts, it's not that comfortable to play if you're not used to it due to turret configuration, but it's not a bad ship if you take all that into account. Ow, AAA is laughable, which hurts because playing this like an Izumo/Yamato and just sit bow on going forwards/backwards slowly will be punished harshly by any carrier in the game it will meet. Yet I still mostly did just that, sitting bow on and making small course corrections. The problems only arise if the carrier planes really force you into a turn. IF Dunq had a quicker reload, it would be even better then Scharnhorst at killing cruisers.

 

I have to say though, even while I could do the damage, it's still not a carry ship just because unlike Scharnhorst, it is not as versatile. Scharn can beat other BB's because of ROF and having armor, That and the turret placement make Dunq a nice battle cruiser, but just like in real life, when it can't bully cruisers and meets real battleships you're just out off luck. You can get very high damage games, and thus good income, you can train a French BB captain with the ship ( in anticipation of a French navy ), but this is not a winrate padder unless you division it with something which can tank damage if needed ( New Mexico and Dunq division + CV sounds nice ).

[Plautuskake]

Problem with Dunk is that when is coming to World of Warships. If it would have come 6 months earlier, it would have got better reception. It is fastest tier 6 BB and only half knot slower than Kongo, gun placing is un-original, it has fastest rotation speed with guns and HE- and AP-velocity is fastest in tier 6. So, ship very has good points, no other tier 6 BB can relocate that well. However, it was quite unfortunate that Scharnhorst came same time to the game. That ship is also battlecruiser and do same thing than Dunkerque does. Because of that DUnkerque is forced to live in shadows of Scharhorst and that causes more critics to Dunk. About Dunk's secondaries, they are not bad, just very situational.

[Darth_Glorious]

Problem with Dunk is that when is coming to World of Warships. If it would have come 6 months earlier, it would have got better reception. It is fastest tier 6 BB and only half knot slower than Kongo, gun placing is un-original, it has fastest rotation speed with guns and HE- and AP-velocity is fastest in tier 6. So, ship very has good points, no other tier 6 BB can relocate that well. However, it was quite unfortunate that Scharnhorst came same time to the game. That ship is also battlecruiser and do same thing than Dunkerque does. Because of that DUnkerque is forced to live in shadows of Scharhorst and that causes more critics to Dunk. About Dunk's secondaries, they are not bad, just very situational.

 

But you cannot train French captain with Sharnhorst.... Dunkerque is the first French ship in the game though.

[Capt_QuoNiam_2015]

To sum up the debate I would say this: You absolutely can't compare this chip to other tier 6 BBs as it was not a true BB.  It was considered by French Navy as a Scout Battleship, so as Scout light cruisers, she has thin armor, high speed, reasonable maneuverability (compared to Fuso the same size as her) and reasonable firepower if not good firepower on paper. 

The problem of the reviews come from the fact that the ships was directly compared to other tier 6 BBs whereas she couldn't be compared to them.

If you take into account historical context and what you can do according to her own caracteristics, she's not completely bad but completely outstanding either.

Her secondaries are, at least on paper, DPM and range wise the best at tier 6 of any ships, the only problem is that their emplacement doesn't allow them to express themselves due to the bow-on meta in the game.

Her guns are not the most accurate but are not the worst either, they are not worse than Izumo's and Amagi's guns which rageingly straddle targets most of the time too, nothing surprising here due to 1.8 sigma, but if you count max dispersion per kilometer, it is still the best of tier 6 BBs.

Historically her AA was crap, and that is all you'll get without being completely ridiculously modified in an Overpowered way to satisfy poor whining players.

 

The only thing that enrages me is the anti torpedo protection which is definitely underwhelming compared to the real thing.

Buffing this and turrets HP is all that ship really need.

 

As for the rest, just learn to deal with it.  It won't be the most played tier 6 BB?  I can live with it.

That gives us some good news to be grateful about:  Having Strasbourg in the regular French BB branch with better armor and really better AA, and having fewer Dunk spam so having less bad players comanding this ship than Tirpitzes or Atagos... So a better overall performance can be possible.

[mtm78]

The reason it is compared with BB's is because in game she is supposed to be one, she fits a BB slot in the matchmaker. But she can not tank the damage versus another battleship, which is her weak point. And unlike real life, she can't exactly choose to not engage a superior force. That is why I said it will not be a good win rate padding machine when played solo, but it is certainly a rather unique ship with some fun qualities ( and challenging 'deficits' ). 

[Poster_2015]

There is one major problem with the ship - that its tier 6 - which forced WG to nerf it in few aspects. Thats also somewhat of a necessity given the poor AA. If it was t7-8 it would have to deal with t9-10 CVs which it simply cant do. Still the nerfs to fit this ship into tier 6 are a bit TOO harsh, which coupled with overperforming tier 6 BBs leads to some problems. Ill focus on most glaring aspect - which is guns. If they "fix" guns to historical values, it can even overperform, but im sure some buff can be done there to give this ship some teeth.

 

There is a bit too much stress in the game currently on the caliber of the shells. While 16" guns were generally new designs and they really would perform better , the 14" guns are a different beast. 

Fuso guns currently vastly overperform. Its a very dated 1908 Vickers design (I believe actual Fuso had guns even made in UK, later Japanese started to make their own version), which wasnt really updated other then with changing mounts to allow for more elevation. Fuso guns should be WAY worse then New Mexico guns in penetration - they really arent much different. Dunquerke guns have better shell speed, better ballistics and vastly better side armor penetrations at all ranges in game. Fuso can somewhat match Dunquerke at really max range plunging fire, but thats about it. In a duel vs Fuso it actually should be way easier for french BB to score hits and damage then other way round. But because its 330mm, WG decided to artificially nerf those stats. New Mexico guns are way better then Fuso, but still inferior to the french 330mm in actual penetration values (pretty close though). Considering you would have range and speed advantage it wouldnt be a big problem. In general 14" guns are too good - which is partly why it sometimes feels like Nagato and Colorado are downgrades.

 

TLDR - give Dunquerke real gun characteristics , give it the split turret layout (count it as 4 half turrets? ), and while it will still have bad AA, and not that great armor, it will have something to compensate with. Those 330mm guns were really superior to 14" of Japan and US -  which given the difference in time they were designed is understandable. 

[anonym_MfZ6T7iwWpUC]

There is one major problem with the ship - that its tier 6 - which forced WG to nerf it in few aspects. Thats also somewhat of a necessity given the poor AA. If it was t7-8 it would have to deal with t9-10 CVs which it simply cant do. Still the nerfs to fit this ship into tier 6 are a bit TOO harsh, which coupled with overperforming tier 6 BBs leads to some problems. Ill focus on most glaring aspect - which is guns. If they "fix" guns to historical values, it can even overperform, but im sure some buff can be done there to give this ship some teeth.

 

There is a bit too much stress in the game currently on the caliber of the shells. While 16" guns were generally new designs and they really would perform better , the 14" guns are a different beast. 

Fuso guns currently vastly overperform. Its a very dated 1908 Vickers design (I believe actual Fuso had guns even made in UK, later Japanese started to make their own version), which wasnt really updated other then with changing mounts to allow for more elevation. Fuso guns should be WAY worse then New Mexico guns in penetration - they really arent much different. Dunquerke guns have better shell speed, better ballistics and vastly better side armor penetrations at all ranges in game. Fuso can somewhat match Dunquerke at really max range plunging fire, but thats about it. In a duel vs Fuso it actually should be way easier for french BB to score hits and damage then other way round. But because its 330mm, WG decided to artificially nerf those stats. New Mexico guns are way better then Fuso, but still inferior to the french 330mm in actual penetration values (pretty close though). Considering you would have range and speed advantage it wouldnt be a big problem. In general 14" guns are too good - which is partly why it sometimes feels like Nagato and Colorado are downgrades.

 

TLDR - give Dunquerke real gun characteristics , give it the split turret layout (count it as 4 half turrets? ), and while it will still have bad AA, and not that great armor, it will have something to compensate with. Those 330mm guns were really superior to 14" of Japan and US -  which given the difference in time they were designed is understandable. 

 

I dont think you can judge 14" guns like you are doing. You are basing your judgement on the age and caliber of the gun. But you also need to take into account the advancement in propellant, and the shells themselves. This was an area the RN/Admiralty worried greatly about at the end of WW1. That is why they did so many tests in the 20's and early 30's. They used their older dreadnoughts, due for scrapping, as test beds to understand penetration and damage levels of the then, modern shells in developments.

[Darth_Glorious]

There is one major problem with the ship - that its tier 6 - which forced WG to nerf it in few aspects. Thats also somewhat of a necessity given the poor AA. If it was t7-8 it would have to deal with t9-10 CVs which it simply cant do. Still the nerfs to fit this ship into tier 6 are a bit TOO harsh, which coupled with overperforming tier 6 BBs leads to some problems. Ill focus on most glaring aspect - which is guns. If they "fix" guns to historical values, it can even overperform, but im sure some buff can be done there to give this ship some teeth.

 

There is a bit too much stress in the game currently on the caliber of the shells. While 16" guns were generally new designs and they really would perform better , the 14" guns are a different beast. 

Fuso guns currently vastly overperform. Its a very dated 1908 Vickers design (I believe actual Fuso had guns even made in UK, later Japanese started to make their own version), which wasnt really updated other then with changing mounts to allow for more elevation. Fuso guns should be WAY worse then New Mexico guns in penetration - they really arent much different. Dunquerke guns have better shell speed, better ballistics and vastly better side armor penetrations at all ranges in game. Fuso can somewhat match Dunquerke at really max range plunging fire, but thats about it. In a duel vs Fuso it actually should be way easier for french BB to score hits and damage then other way round. But because its 330mm, WG decided to artificially nerf those stats. New Mexico guns are way better then Fuso, but still inferior to the french 330mm in actual penetration values (pretty close though). Considering you would have range and speed advantage it wouldnt be a big problem. In general 14" guns are too good - which is partly why it sometimes feels like Nagato and Colorado are downgrades.

 

TLDR - give Dunquerke real gun characteristics , give it the split turret layout (count it as 4 half turrets? ), and while it will still have bad AA, and not that great armor, it will have something to compensate with. Those 330mm guns were really superior to 14" of Japan and US -  which given the difference in time they were designed is understandable. 

 

What ? In the game, Dunkerque 330 mm penetration already is better than other nations 14 inches gun....

[Gnirf]

 

That’s not correct. The Dunkerque was a direct response to the first Deutschland been laid down in 1929. It took the French a while to agree to what they wanted. But the Dunkerque was ordered in 1932, and launched in 1935. The Scharnhorst (partly a response to the Dunkerque, but not totally) was ordered in early 1935, and laid down in mid-1935.

The Richelieu, contrary to popular belief, was a direct response to Italy announcing it would build two 35,000 ton battleships with 9 x 381mm guns. The main thought process of the French admiralty between the wars, was the possible threat in the Mediterranean by a resurgent Italy. The Deutschland woke them from their malaise and made them look towards their closest threat.

 

 

 

Already Strasbourg was influenced by the Italian announement 26 may 1934. As the next class (future Richelieu) would take a few years to plan, design both ship and guns/mountings the Conseil Superiur 25 June 1934 they embarked as quickly as possible with a second Dunkerque class ship with beefed up protection. Order date 16 July 1934. (see Jordan/Dumas French Battleships 1922-1956 p31)

 

 

 

 

[GoT_PcDealer]

My thoughts on the Dunkerque:

 

Pros

- 8 gun salvo at the front

- good secondaries

- can shoot 4 out of 6 planes in a squadron

- good speed

- rudder change, can dodge panicking torp planes

- secondaries very strong at the back to hit chasing ships (not being bb's)

 

Cons

- hate the dispersion, even at short distances

- slow to get up to speed

- always getting hits from planes, esp. dive bombers

- secondaries not useful for head on attack

- burns quite fast

 

About the turrets: I got less deleted turrets than in the G. Kurfurst. Though I took measures by installing Main Armaments Modification 1, which helped very well.

 

Finally, it's the most beautiful ship and it earns very good amounts of credit! Play it in division or a good co-operating team at it will do good.

[mtm78]

- can shoot 4 out of 6 planes in a squadron

 

 maybe Langley planes, and even that is unlikely 

 

edit:

 

I do have to add that since the DP guns are large they will benefit from manual AAA, and with manual AAA and AFT + BFT ( aka totally specced for AAA ) with the AAA upgrades it might be a lot better than without  

 

[Tomy117]

From what i've seen this is not a new player freindly ship. If you haven't played a certain amount of battle you will not perform good in it. Like some peoples already said, it fell like the atlanta syndrom, on paper it's a bad ship but in good hands it's a monster. Maybe we should take time to learn a new playstyle and wait for a little buff in some way. ^^

[ImperialAdmiral]

Any news whe she will be available?

[TheCinC]

Sorry, just need a place to vent..

 

I don't care if she sucks, I want her..

She is the first non-German modern battleship/battlecruiser available in game.

Do want.

She is out on NA server, kinda expected her today..

WG, when can I stop frantically refreshing the premium shop?
When?
Never mind, I don't want to know, just shut up and take my money!

 

/vent

 

Thanks, you may continue now.

Carry on.

As you were.

[anonym_XGuN6pHmfiJ9]

Maybe i'm reading the numbers wrong.

Maybe there aren't enough battles already

But when I look at the stats I would say that French ship is more than okay.

 

[aboomination]

Question is if she's limited to this average or if good players can make it shine or not: Does it have potential, what's her skill ceiling? Is she fun to play?

But no, stat-wise she doesn't look particularly wrong at this very early point.

 

This way it makes more sense since it includes all the recent nerfs/buffs/changes and puts the "games played" to a comparable level.

 

 

[Warlock_hero_defender]

The most dissapointing thing with the Dunkerque, is the fact that it isnt already released already.

[lafeel]

The most dissapointing thing with the Dunkerque, is the fact that it isnt already released already.

 

Heh, let's see if you change your tune after she gets released.