Do carriers ruin games ?

[AgarwaenME]

 

Personally i never realised Dive Bombers carried HE shells, i learn more every day

 

Actually they carry HE bombs (which is why dive bombers are amazingly weak compared to real life). Besides that you can easily detonate targets with AP shells or torpedoes too.

[anonym_EFwxJOPWzlER]

Spartan - your favourite class, and also the class that you perform best in, are DD's - now I tried some DD's during beta and decided with the live game to stick to BBs and CAs purely because the gameplay changes so dramatically between those and DD's (similar reason why I am not driving CV's currently either) - I am not clocking up the volume of games to swap between radically different play style ships and be effective in them all. I would suggest that you try to specialise more in a particular type of ship (BB/CA/DD/CV) until you are comfortable with your understanding of how those ship types work best - which would show up in your stats - and then try a different class, just to appreciate the differing approaches to how each class works best.

 

On the Tirpitz clip and also your responses the impression that you are giving is that you are using the same aggressive DD tactics as a BB driver, and that doesn't work - obviously this is gained on extremely limited data, but I hope that you consider it thoughtfully.

 

 

 

You could be right about the DD aspect of my game, i would say 75 or 80% of my game is DD based, i have stated previously in the forums i have struggled with BB's, but the Tirpitz at the same time is meant for close quarter battle if i believe correctly. So with Tirpitz, i don't hang about at the back sniping from long distance, i move the ship closer to the enemy using islands as cover so i can get closer to lone ships or small groups, once i am close i attack, i get as close as possible, maybe my tactic is wrong

[dasCKD]

Detonated from full health by one Dive Bomber from a Lexington

 

and some suggest carriers are not OP in any way

 

 

 

 

Really? That's your argument? Really?

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/58438-yamato-detonated-by-a-dd-he-shells/

 

ErmigodyamatoarmorsoUP! Buff Yamato armor!

[Malim0o]

Hum a other whine against CV ......

Atm "EBKAC" ruin the game and maybe yolo play to if you want.

CV are OP against a alone target .

But we are on multiplayers game ,right ? Maybe stop play like a yolo warrior and try the teamplay......

So no CV arent OP 

[Wolfenbane]

Cvs ruin the game.Nope.Nothing compares to dodging CV torps,DD torps and CA fire all in the one go.Adds a nice touch of variety to the gameplay.Mind you,i'd be lying if i said i always survive three assaults like that,i rarely would.There's also the fact you get a small amount of XP from shooting down aircraft.

[AgarwaenME]

 

Really? That's your argument? Really?

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/58438-yamato-detonated-by-a-dd-he-shells/

 

ErmigodyamatoarmorsoUP! Buff Yamato armor!

 

Yes, isn't it strange he's not using that to ask for nerfs to DDs? I mean, if a DD can kill a yamato in one gun salvo (costing him 5 second of reload time) then how isn't that absurdly OP compared to a CV sinking a ship with a weapon that can attack once every 3+ minutes?

 

Or could it just be that it's a nearly only DD player wants to nerf the one thing that reliably counters him? Could it be just that someone who's first defense is to accuse someone else of bias in fact is 100% biased himself? On can wonder can't one...

[dasCKD]

 

You could be right about the DD aspect of my game, i would say 75 or 80% of my game is DD based, i have stated previously in the forums i have struggled with BB's, but the Tirpitz at the same time is meant for close quarter battle if i believe correctly. So with Tirpitz, i don't hang about at the back sniping from long distance, i move the ship closer to the enemy using islands as cover so i can get closer to lone ships or small groups, once i am close i attack, i get as close as possible, maybe my tactic is wrong

 

On a more serious note it's not a 'wrong' tactic, it just demonstrates the playerbase's inability to cope with changing situations. CVs used to be everywhere hence the players played in a way to account for that. Now, they're very rare so very few players knows how to deal with them as avoiding being targeted by CVs is no longer a part of the general player's playstyle. Charging forwards in a Tirpitz is a tactic that works well because Tirpitzes are virtually unkillable at close ranges and they have an impressive array of torpedoes that scares even cruisers away. Against carriers however, carriers can't care less about citadel protection or ship borne torpedoes when planning their attacks, they attack the ship that is furthest forwards so it would psychologically weaken the enemy's resolve when they see an allied ship eliminated in front of their eyes. You didn't adapt to the fact that there is a carrier in play and the carrier exploited that at your expense.

[CLyDeThaMonKeY]

Does it ruin games? No. Its more of a challenge, wich I like ;)

Only thing I can be annoyed by is if Im getting into a double CV match as a DD or IJN BB

[dasCKD]

 

Yes, isn't it strange he's not using that to ask for nerfs to DDs? I mean, if a DD can kill a yamato in one gun salvo (costing him 5 second of reload time) then how isn't that absurdly OP compared to a CV sinking a ship with a weapon that can attack once every 3+ minutes?

 

Or could it just be that it's a nearly only DD player wants to nerf the one thing that reliably counters him? Could it be just that someone who's first defense is to accuse someone else of bias in fact is 100% biased himself? On can wonder can't one...

 

Everyone is biased. Really, it just comes down to a matter of how well one can defend one's argument. I have, in my admittedly short carrier career, managed to detonate exactly one ship: a Gnevny with my Hiryu and so I simply can't acknowledge the fact that carriers can detonate other ships as an argument. I, for one, would be glad for the day that detonation is removed as a mechanic. That's an argument for another day however.

[_FTD_]

What the hell am I reading here...

[Exocet6951]

OP uses his Tirpitz to **** on CAs from 18km away = no problem

OP gets hit by a couple of laughably weak aerial torpedoes,causing 5k damage each, tops = mega QQ CV NERF NAO !


Did we travel back in time to open beta?

 

PS: the highest WR of any CV on the EU server is 52%, and on average, they're on 47-48%, Midway being at 43%. By comparison, BBs are on average at just above 50%

[Admiral_noodle]

The only issue I have (which is unavoidable) is that *some* carrier players can mess up your entire game and not leave you alone and there is no reward for dodging torpedoes.

 

Now if you got XP for awesome torpedo dodges all would be fine

[dasCKD]

The only issue I have (which is unavoidable) is that *some* carrier players can mess up your entire game and not leave you alone and there is no reward for dodging torpedoes.

 

Now if you got XP for awesome torpedo dodges all would be fine

 

We could implement the bullet hell mechanic like in Touhou, where you get grazing XP. It will certainly make for some interesting games.

[AgarwaenME]

 

Everyone is biased. Really, it just comes down to a matter of how well one can defend one's argument. I have, in my admittedly short carrier carrier, managed to detonate exactly one ship: a Gnevny with my Hiryu and so I simply can't acknowledge the fact that carriers can detonate other ships as an argument. I, for one, would be glad for the day that detonation is removed as a mechanic. That's an argument for another day however.

 

Yes to an extent. However it's a false equivalency fallacy to just go "ok, you're both biased so your opinions are worth the same". That's where you look at facts and decide which bias actually have merit. It's especially evident when it's just used to casually dismiss opposing arguments by going "My guess is your a CV player, your words seem so biased that it's obvious" when you have nothing else to say.

 

I've detonated ships while playing CV, even of the "one torp hit a full hp NC and boom" type (which was the only plane to survive out of a 12 planes to even drop any weapons), and I've also been detonated by them (had a 3.3k base xp game where I got detonated as I was about to sink the ranger that did it and cap another point, so what would have been a completely absurd game got cut short, frustrating? certainly, but looking back at that game I'd also been lucky in that this CV had launched attack after attack with DBs and hadn't done more than splash damage to my engine and rudder for 10 minutes. It's just so amazingly easy to ignore that you've been lucky yourself when that luck turns away from you).

 

// My personal view on detonations is that there should be a sliding chance for them where it's far less likely at full hp, then becoming more likely as you drop in hp. Which would make it a lot less frustrating.

[Admiral_noodle]

 

We could implement the bullet hell mechanic like in Touhou, where you get grazing XP. It will certainly make for some interesting games.

 

Well that's my point. Defeating a carrier is indeed fun. But you don't get any in game rewards for it. No idea how you would "balance" this. A potato CV would end up an XP giving machine!

 

However no. CVs do not "ruin" games. But they can severely restrict your damage potential (good strategy!) and playing well to mitigate CV damage isn't in anyway rewarded (apart from increasing the chance of a win)

[Shirakami_Kon]

CVs make siting bow in padling backward harder for BBs

CV Makes siting out of sight 6km from the bow of a BB harder for a DD.

CVs give CAs a source for exp that dont require risk it to get 2 shoted by enemy BBs

CV force teamplay and punish yoloing Actions.

And not to Forget: AA Level and the presence of mirror MM makes sure your not totally helpless in most ships

 

And which of those points isn't ruining the game?    

They don't let le poor Tirpitz play.

[dasCKD]

 

Yes to an extent. However it's a false equivalency fallacy to just go "ok, you're both biased so your opinions are worth the same". That's where you look at facts and decide which bias actually have merit. It's especially evident when it's just used to casually dismiss opposing arguments by going "My guess is your a CV player, your words seem so biased that it's obvious" when you have nothing else to say.

 

I've detonated ships while playing CV, even of the "one torp hit a full hp NC and boom" type (which was the only plane to survive out of a 12 planes to even drop any weapons), and I've also been detonated by them (had a 3.3k base xp game where I got detonated as I was about to sink the ranger that did it and cap another point, so what would have been a completely absurd game got cut short, frustrating? certainly, but looking back at that game I'd also been lucky in that this CV had launched attack after attack with DBs and hadn't done more than splash damage to my engine and rudder for 10 minutes. It's just so amazingly easy to ignore that you've been lucky yourself when that luck turns away from you).

 

// My personal view on detonations is that there should be a sliding chance for them where it's far less likely at full hp, then becoming more likely as you drop in hp. Which would make it a lot less frustrating.

 

I am of the belief that opinions are of equal worth: none. The only thing that matters is the arguments that are formed to defend positions. Someone could despise CVs with every fiber of their being and would like to build a time machine to go back in time to murder anyone who ever began to conceive the idea of an aircraft carrier, but if they can defend their position in terms of gameplay balance and overall enjoyment for all parties involved then I believe that they are of more worth than someone who is just slightly biased but presents no evidence and argues useless points. It might be pedantic to argue the point, but I think the worth of what should be discussed here is not the worth of opinions but the validity of arguments.

 

That said, I do agree with you that the arguments presented against carriers tends to be of rather poor caliber and often revolved around single incidents more than any demonstrable trends. I have managed to avoid being detonated by carriers myself fortunately for me, but I can imagine how frustrating detonation could be. I think that there should be something similar to a damaged ammunition magazine so ships know that they are at risks of detonation so the detonation itself comes as less of a roll of a dice but something more similar to seeing your ship with near to no HP left. I also think that RNG should be ironed our of CVs one mechanic at a time, but again that's for a different thread.

 

Edit: what I'm saying is that being biased shouldn't preclude you from arguments, but you should be expected to argue just like everyone else instead of throwing a tantrum because everyone else doesn't share your biases. I'm not saying it to anyone in particular, just a general criticism of arguments in these forums.

[AgarwaenME]

 

I am of the belief that opinions are of equal worth: none. The only thing that matters is the arguments that are formed to defend positions. Someone could despise CVs with every fiber of their being and would like to build a time machine to go back in time to murder anyone who ever began to conceive the idea of an aircraft carrier, but if they can defend their position in terms of gameplay balance and overall enjoyment for all parties involved then I believe that they are of more worth than someone who is just slightly biased but presents no evidence and argues useless points. It might be pedantic to argue the point, but I think the worth of what should be discussed here is not the worth of opinions but the validity of arguments.

 

 

I very much agree. But it's a common tactic to try to twist a discussion into being "opinion vs opinion" or "bias vs bias" when you know you lack reasonable arguments and facts. "It's your opinion that 2+2=4, but it's mine that it equals 5, and since both are opinions they're both valid conclusions".

 

Or like the OP here, when being told by several people what he did wrong, he refuses these facts and instead starts calling people who tell him this biased, even at people who doesn't at all play CVs as their primary ship class.

[Nexa91]

Wg Hiryu aint nerfed enought.PLS giff t4 bombers on it and buff aa even more. /s 

 

[Tirande]

What I'm reading here is that the OP is a **** who can't play against something he can't blindly one shot with a random guestimated spray of shells. CVs got overly nerfed already and are no longer as interesting to play as they used to be before every ship could go off on his own and still have 4x the AA it needs to obliterate every strike plane coming for it at 10km range (yes I know the AA range is around 7km but you get my point). T8 and above is nearly unplayable as far as CVs go and are more like a source of frustration rather than entertainment. Nerf AA, fix bomber hp and #MakeCVsGreatAgain.

[Venatacia]

Two CV a side ruins matches. Two CV working together can ruin any ship's day. Not uncommon to see the two on top of the scoreboard. One a side is ok though. Just like In WOT with arty, one a side is ok but more ruins matches. I try not to let it bother me though because it's just a game and it's WG game not mine. Now if it were mine; but that's a story for another time.

[aboomination]

[DrCaesar]

It's not carriers the ones ruining the games its players.I'm a BB captain and if i'm against a good CV captain and my teammate is not good, things will be bad for me because ally CV should try to defend me if he/she can when i call for help and this was something rare in past(nowadays its much often because the ones playing CV are now more dedicated and experienced players).Because of this all BB captains cried for CVs being OP at past.Now, they are nerfed and no one is playing them because it's not fun anymore and i'm too relaxed because there are no big threat for me in most of the matches(because its hard to find CVs in high tier games)And nowadays BBs are performing much better because there isn't any big threat to them in matches(other than DDs, but DDs wont be able to hurt you too much if you use your brain and WASD hacks).There are too many BBs on matchmaking these days

   I don't know how WG will solve that problem about CVs.There aren't many CVs around the game and this makes me sad.About some CV players dealing really high damages but don't do anything to help their teammates is the real thing WG should solve.Maybe something like "extra credits or xp for defending your ally" can be implemented in game

[Tigdam]

DrCaesar I don't know how wargaming with solve the issues either but I really do agree with the idea of providing benefits to helping the team.I usually play carriers more defensively, I look at what the team is doing and try to support them: Wither that be to scout, defend bbs, fly fighters over destroyers but honestly non of that really nets us any benefits so the team isn't responding you just kind of give up on them and try to net as much damage as you can.

The idea of ganing XP from engaging bombers that are on an attack run on friendlies or general scouting or at the more extreme length of time over enemy DD's (would be fantastic to get xp from showing enemy dd's torpedoes so even if you scream in chat or show them a DD then your team ignores and gets hit by them, would still be nice to get some benefit from that) I'd honestly do it more often if there were some xp/credit benefit so it can be just as profitable to help your team rarther than dealing dmg. Also it would be good to see a reduction in AA at higher Tiers and to either increase the speed of aircraft to let you do more or a reduction in the strength of American fighters (Really only seem to beat usa carriers if the other guy isn't paying too much attention, One auto engaged fighter one manual attack ijn fighter plus cruiser vs 1usa fighter and both squadrons die while he survives is still op. End up killing your own planes just to take out the usn or maybe an overall increase in IJN squadron size)

Anyway the best ways to save your BBS from a Carrier really have already been said.

1:Turn when you see the aircraft coming, NOT when they are on an attack run but BEFORE to throw the attack off.

2:Join with a cruiser escort (Especially Atlanta, 7km+AA range plus aa cooldown anialiates even 6 squadrons of aircraft).

3:Manually target AA ctrl+click and turn your ship during a bomber attack, in a bb even a few degrease with a manual drop can make the difference between all bombs hitting and all missing. Most high tier bbs/cruisers also have scout/fighter aircraft ctril+click on aircraft also guides these aircraft to join the fight and can kill bombers (Dead bomber can't drop bombs!)

4:Try to stay away from choke points in islands in a BB with aircraft around, honestly if we can seriously damage an way overpowered Atlanta AA cruiser in a chokepoint with AA cooldown active then a Tirpitz will at take some damage though with its own AA we'll loose quite a few aircraft in the process (and yes I know that Tirpitz does better at closer ranges but still you can play it like that without being careless).

[Ferry_25]

Interesting topic. For me CV's hardly have any influence on my matches. They're annoying at best. I extremely rarely get sunk by a torp attack. Only when I'm completely distracted in combat they sometimes manage to surprise me. Or an excellent fishone pattern which I cannot dodge at all (always compliment that CV player if he/ she does manage this). Oh and the rare occasions of a detonation. I'm not fond of playing CV's either. The controls are so boringly simplistic and I cannot grasp the meaning of the particular "setups" you have to chose for your planes. I always manage to pick the wrong ones. Having a strike setup guarantees me an enemy CV with fighters. Fighter setup? That's the best way to get into a USN cruiser infested match. Why I am not able to outfit my planes in battle is really beyond me... AFAIK that's how RL CV's are working. Adept to the particular situation. And once I'm out of planes I can't do anything anymore: all other classes have infinite ammo. But not the CV's with their limited plane stock. So CV's are not for me. Only play them when I 'have to' like with the diamond event. CV's being the reasons worldwide navies has been altered forever is by far not reflecting in any way in Wows IMO.