Time for a survival bonus (Time survived bonus)

[SkybuckFlying]

what if you are the unfortunate dd thats called to cap the cap the other side swarm and you are in a us dd that just happens to be going against 2 ijn dd in front of it. you are called if you turn away instantly or try to force them closer by turning into them and then die in a wall of shells either way you are usually dead by the first 5mins of the game or left with 200hp and then just left picking scraps for the rest of the game.........you are not just going in all guns blazing but you are still expected to take that cap or at least harass them from taking it and quite often you are doing it knowing you are not going to get much help doing it

 

Raising the middle finger inside your mind comes to mind. You are in no way obligated to do anything that others say, especially capturing unscouted flags/areas, there is indeed some incentive to capture flags to prevent early losses, but flags can be capture a little bit later.

 

Your safety/your health/you staying alive is not only your primary concern as far as I am concerned but it is your bussiness as well. You are in charge of the capping process, since you are the best one suited for the job. Taking advice from others how to do your job is just fricking wrong/crazy... consider it advice from them... you can follow their advice or you can raise the big fat middle finger in your mind. You could have very good reasons to raise the big fat middle finger in your mind. Get used to this.

 

Also no ammount of trash talk should affect you... grow some immunitization against it. Their talk is cheap, your health/credits are not ! Yes it can be hard/annoying to get crap thrown at your head... just dont do it if it don't feel right... and be happy you still alive/with full health.

 

However there are sometimes cases where some self-sacrifice might be pay off or is worth of a risky, especially when deploying smoke over a longer area near or on top of a flag. If you don't feel like it, in other words you don't think it's a good idea or it's too risky or you don't wanna risk credit/health loss, then simply don't do it. How much risky/damage/credit loss you take upon trying to cap a flag is up to you.

 

Quite frankly if you get no backup at all to try and cap a flag is none of their bussiness to be talking you into trying to cap a flag... easy talking again of them with nothing to back you up... again raise middle finger in mind and laugh all the way to the bank ! ;)

 

So here is a simple comment for you that you can type back at them:

 

"No backup, no flag, fu ! ;) "

[SkybuckFlying]

I thought survival bonuses were Dreadnaught rewards and those fire& flooding ones...

 

I see your point, added some additional text to thread title/subject to make it more clear what this thread is about ! ;) (Time survived bonus)

[aboomination]

 

Hmmmmm... have you considered what you consider to be a problem might actually be good players, playing defensively for good reasons ?

 

Let's add even more reasons then 

[AgarwaenME]

 

You sound a bit of a noob really, regards, do yourself a favor and look up the following stats in the game port:

 

1. Ship detectibility by air.

2. Ships anti aircraft guns firing range.

 

Notice how "detectibility by air" is much further than AA guns.

 

Hence bombers/planes have very little trouble keeping ships spotted at all times ! ;)

 

This coming from a guy that doesn't know what sonar is.. it's hardly surprising you haven't checked air detectability ranges of DDs, or even CAs who can have within a few hundred meters AAA range similar to air detection range. And these are the ships you might need to spot with planes.

 

Also, the level of stupidity you have to conjure to make a suggestion that would award people for playing in the worst possibly way and in the way that makes high tier play frustrating? Ah yes, that's your level... your own special level of stupidity.

[Agantas]

High tier repair bills are so high that I can't really think that people would rather suicide at those tiers. It is more likely that they drive into corner and hide. But yeah, you do need to give CV time to work his magic. Assuming that your CV is doing better job than theirs. The team is going to have spotting problems if red CV controls the skies.

[_FTD_]

Second pointless thread of the day.

Who are you to judge?

 

Great idea SBF, I think you have quite a few valid points here! I will post proper questions to this thread later.

[Takru]

 

Well duh... do I really have to explain carrier play to you ? Oh well fine:

 

By keeping loaded bombers near/around enemy ships those enemy ships are at edge/triggered/nervous/warry and will be carefull and such... it makes them play a certain way... (for example triggering their AA too early ;) ) plus... just keeping ships spotted like carriers, cruisers, battleships and even destroyers can cause/help my team to fire at them. So in that case I don't have to do a damn thing, except keeping them spotted. Quite easy to do if enemy fighters are around my carriers hoping to supress my bombers while they are already snuck out and on other side of map in the back of enemy ships. I don't really see a problem here.

 

Besides waiting until nasty cruisers are shot can be a good thing, then my bombers can bomb the battleships and do even better damage... can definetly be worth it. Instead of wasting it on hard to bomb cruisers with anti AA triggered/planes or destroyers that are too far away to be part of the battle.

 

You missed the point of DDs and some CAs having longer AA range than their air detectability.

BBs are easy to spot as it is, you don't need planes to do that. Spotting DDs and CAs is what is more important, as you can potentially sink those a lot faster than BBs.

 

Of course, all of this is assuming that the enemy CV is comatose and not trying to do anything about whatever you are doing.

[SkybuckFlying]

 

This coming from a guy that doesn't know what sonar is.. it's hardly surprising you haven't checked air detectability ranges of DDs, or even CAs who can have within a few hundred meters AAA range similar to air detection range. And these are the ships you might need to spot with planes.

 

Also, the level of stupidity you have to conjure to make a suggestion that would award people for playing in the worst possibly way and in the way that makes high tier play frustrating? Ah yes, that's your level... your own special level of stupidity.

 

Your the one that is being stupid. Destroyers have very weak AA, have not inspected destroyers at tier 9/10 much... but surely their AA won't be that much better... I have seen so far one sims with a special AA ability... not sure if gearing/kagero and such have that... for now I will assume most destroyers don't have that... especially when they have smoke screen.

 

Also DD firing at planes will increase their detectable range and depending on if they are firing or not will also stay detected for quite a while... and detecting destroyers that are hiding deep in their own fleet is certainly not a priority at any stretch of the imagination ;)

 

Perhaps you were thinking of destroyers near flags or near team fleet. That's a different situation.

 

The situation I was more or less replieing too is the one where my bombers are spotting BB/cruiser. Spotting DDs briefly is also enough to give destroyer hunters on our team an idea where to hunt for them.

 

You expecting me to waste precious bomber loads on destroyers now that is pretty damn foolish ! *

 

Sometimes I may decide to keep bombers fully loaded or not near destroyers in case I think it's beneficial to me or the team to do so !

 

Sometimes not...

 

Sometimes I may decide to bomb destroyers, sometimes not

 

Tactical decisions !

 

HAHAHAHAHAHA ! =D

 

That's also part of the fun of playing carrier ! Many times the players on my team don't understand my tactical decisions ! HAHAHAHAHA !

 

I consider that a good thing.

 

If my own teammates don't understand it, then good chance the enemy doesn't understand it at all ! ;)

 

If I consider it a bad thing I might take a little bit of time to explain if I think that will be beneficial to me or the team effort ! ;)

[philjd]

In Principle the idea is good if the mechanics could be done in such a way that it still punished the players that would do all they could to survive the battle as their own major objective - so no longer  trying to win, doing their best to avoid all damage, not taking the necessary risks needed to win the battle etc.

 

I have no idea what sort of metrics WG gather during each battle, but this is a list of things that are obviously tracked or trackable:-

1) Distance traveled

2) shots fired (main, secondary, AA, torps)

3) Incoming shots/torpedo's/bombs (hits)

4) Long range Incoming shots (+6 second flight time)

5) SA triggering

6) CAP points (cap/def)

7) Survival

8) Last man standing

9+)  'Others??'

 

Now I'm quite good with math, but I have no idea what sort of algorithm could be derived from the above to give the result that you seem to be looking for?

 

I don't imagine that they track the route taken by every ship in every battle which is what you need to actually make a judgement call over whether a player is deliberately throwing themselves away, taking one for the team or leading the advance but running into too much to handle so goes 'Banzai' in order to try to get something for themselves or the team prior to dying.

 

This is a question that would definitely go into the pending tray for a very very long time....

 

edit - added last man standing

 

[Takru]

 

I see your point

 

Whut? Who are you and what did you do to Skybuckflying?

[SkybuckFlying]

High tier repair bills are so high that I can't really think that people would rather suicide at those tiers. It is more likely that they drive into corner and hide. But yeah, you do need to give CV time to work his magic. Assuming that your CV is doing better job than theirs. The team is going to have spotting problems if red CV controls the skies.

 

I don't agree with this. I am also not exactly sure what you mean. Perhaps you ment control skies as you wrote after that. Or perhaps you ment killing ships. In the latter case a CV that did well, might have also lost a lot of bombers and might be running out of bombers.

 

While the other CV still have a full reserve or nearly full reserve or half reserve of bombers and can still dis-out a lot of damage.

 

Thus it's always possible for a poorly doing damage-wise CV to catch up, damage wise... thus as you wrote giving CV time to do damage is a good thing.

[Takru]

 

Your the one that is being stupid. Destroyers have very weak AA, have not inspected destroyers at tier 9/10 much... but surely their AA won't be that much better... I have seen so far one sims with a special AA ability... not sure if gearing/kagero and such have that... for now I will assume most destroyers don't have that... especially when they have smoke screen.

 

Also DD firing at planes will increase their detectable range and depending on if they are firing or not will also stay detected for quite a while... and detecting destroyers that are hiding deep in their own fleet is certainly not a priority at any stretch of the imagination ;)

 

High tier DDs can choose between Defensive Fire and Speedboost. Also note that DD guns up there are dual purpose and do beneft from BFT, AFT and manual AA perks. They can dish out quite a repectable AA wall.

 

While it is true that firing secondary / AA guns increses the visibility of a ship, it does not do so by a lot. On top of this, DDs are notoriously hard to hit, especially at longer ranges, assuming you have a line of sight to the target in the first place.

 

[AgarwaenME]

 

Your the one that is being stupid. Destroyers have very weak AA, have not inspected destroyers at tier 9/10 much... but surely their AA won't be that much better... I have seen so far one sims with a special AA ability... not sure if gearing/kagero and such have that... for now I will assume most destroyers don't have that... especially when they have smoke screen.

 

You admit to not having checked, then you call someone stupid for telling you something you have no idea about.  USN DDs, which will usually be using defensive fire in high tiers, (and no, it doesn't conflict with smoke, but your ignorance about this is hardly surprising) are quite capable of shooting down squads that merely hover above to spot them, even to some extent being able to provide AAA defense for a group of ships

 

Here's a tip. When you don't know something, don't make claims that require that knowledge.

 

Also, there's a reason why people don't understand your "tactical decisions", it's because few people thinks that anyone will be so willfully ignorant and completely ignore common sense.

[SkybuckFlying]

 

You missed the point of DDs and some CAs having longer AA range than their air detectability.

BBs are easy to spot as it is, you don't need planes to do that. Spotting DDs and CAs is what is more important, as you can potentially sink those a lot faster than BBs.

 

Of course, all of this is assuming that the enemy CV is comatose and not trying to do anything about whatever you are doing.

 

Hmmm... I'll admit I wasn't aware of this as far as I know LOL.

 

So I actually learned something from this thread, thanks ! I will try to figure out which ships these are and what is needed for this, sometime... maybe in public test.

 

I still think the point is somewhat moot.... since the outer AA rings might not be that powerfulll... or maybe they are... I have noticed taking some heavy losses while being briefly close to ships... so there could be some merit/valid points in these postings.... of AA being greater than air detectibility !

 

Still not too much of a valid argument... since this may only concern a few ships, which would then stay hidden, while the rest of the enemy fleet is still revealed and thus as long as the number of detected ships is greater than zero my bombers are doing good.

 

Further more consider this as counter argument:

 

If your ships with larger AA then detecibility remain concealed and are not firing back at my fleet ! THE BETTER ! Less damage for my fleet... while you try to sneak up onto my bombers ?!

 

Overall that seems like a bad tactic for you... as soon as I get a vocal warning that my bombers are taking damage or I notice their count is going down I can pull them back quite fast... unless they are near borders or so...

 

Meanwhile again some time wasted for you... while those ships that are spotted are getting hammered ! ;)

 

I like it when ships try to shoot down planes.

 

But in this case... by all means ! Buf your AA range, stay concealed... don't fire at my fleet ! THANK YOU FOR NOT DAMAGING MY FLEET ! LOL

 

And for the final nail in the coffin: once these kinds of ship do start firing this entire point goes out the window and is totally moot... their detectibility range increases enormously ! ;) At least that is what usually happens ! ;)

 

(Some battleships can hide pretty well though, perhaps not higher tier, perhaps yes... depends on configuration and firing/yes/no... at tier 5 I can hide my BB decently... even at tier 7... islands can help sometimes... so for those somewhat further away or somewhat concealed cases spotting them can still be nice and helpfull ;) especially for our BBs to know if they are about to be ganged up or not ;) )

[OldGrandad]

You expecting me to waste precious bomber loads on destroyers now that is pretty damn foolish ! *

 

One way not to be a good CV captain. The initial threat to any team are the DD's and good CV captains will either destroy those DD's or spot them for ally cruisers to dismiss.

 

As for your OP, the logic is flawed. These battles are only 20 minutes max, the way you describe awarding passiveness would bring about the draws of old which proved to be extremely disliked at best. All players want to survive but the aim is to win - at all costs. If I feel a suicidal incursion to enemy territory will win the battle for my team I would do so without hesitation. 

 

You, instead of being tactically obtuse, should play the battle according to how the rest of the team are playing and not to your own (possibly selfish) way.

[SkybuckFlying]

In Principle the idea is good if the mechanics could be done in such a way that it still punished the players that would do all they could to survive the battle as their own major objective - so no longer  trying to win, doing their best to avoid all damage, not taking the necessary risks needed to win the battle etc.

 

I have no idea what sort of metrics WG gather during each battle, but this is a list of things that are obviously tracked or trackable:-

1) Distance traveled

2) shots fired (main, secondary, AA, torps)

3) Incoming shots/torpedo's/bombs (hits)

4) Long range Incoming shots (+6 second flight time)

5) SA triggering

6) CAP points (cap/def)

7) Survival

8) Last man standing

9+)  'Others??'

 

Now I'm quite good with math, but I have no idea what sort of algorithm could be derived from the above to give the result that you seem to be looking for?

 

I don't imagine that they track the route taken by every ship in every battle which is what you need to actually make a judgement call over whether a player is deliberately throwing themselves away, taking one for the team or leading the advance but running into too much to handle so goes 'Banzai' in order to try to get something for themselves or the team prior to dying.

 

This is a question that would definitely go into the pending tray for a very very long time....

 

edit - added last man standing

 

 

You raised a good point, but the point is different of what you thought it was.

 

The main point you primarly raised was how to combat "bots" trying to "farm" which I think is a valid concern. This is what you initially wrote. I can fully imagine a bot writer trying to take adventage of this "time survived bonus" by trying to hide the bot's ship as much as possible and sailing away/across borders to try and avoid enemy fire.

 

The metrics you wrote about can be used to detect this "battle avoidence" behaviour.

 

There is basically already something in the game, the game says: "You did not prove yourself in battle".

 

Whenever the game says that this "time survived bonus" could be withheld, since the game already detected the player did very little.

 

So main concern is not: "players who throw the game". It's preventing bots from exploiting it and thriving.

 

The bonus itself should convince human players that at some point they did enough damage, did good, got some credits, got some points, but now it's time for not only a tactical/point-wise retreat, but also a credit-wise retreat to rack in additional credits by simply sailing away and staying alive. Hopefully not giving up too much flags/points... Sailing away can be dangerous by losing flags.... but it can also prevent fast victories for enemies by preventing death/deaths.

[SkybuckFlying]

 

You admit to not having checked, then you call someone stupid for telling you something you have no idea about.  USN DDs, which will usually be using defensive fire in high tiers, (and no, it doesn't conflict with smoke, but your ignorance about this is hardly surprising) are quite capable of shooting down squads that merely hover above to spot them, even to some extent being able to provide AAA defense for a group of ships

 

Here's a tip. When you don't know something, don't make claims that require that knowledge.

 

Also, there's a reason why people don't understand your "tactical decisions", it's because few people thinks that anyone will be so willfully ignorant and completely ignore common sense.

 

Well there was a risk that it might not be smoke screen being replaced but actually something else... well now thanks to your post apperently it's turbo boost... nice... that keeps them even further away from my fleet ! ;)

 

Plenty of reserve bombers to go around... one little destroyer firing at one little bomber squad... while enemy fleet getting slaughtered by my fleet is an afforable price LOL

 

Now go pad yourself on the back for being totally useless ! LOL.

 

However if I ever find you to be right and me to be wrong I will be the first one to let you know ! ;)

 

The thought of having turbo boost replaced by something useless as defensive AA makes me feel so much at ease as CV !....

 

There I will be navigating away, turning in circles... avoiding your slow DD and your torpies waiting for that AA to run out... plenty of waiting thanks to no turbo boost !

 

Thanks man ! Bless you ! ;) =D

[SkybuckFlying]

 

One way not to be a good CV captain. The initial threat to any team are the DD's and good CV captains will either destroy those DD's or spot them for ally cruisers to dismiss.

 

As for your OP, the logic is flawed. These battles are only 20 minutes max, the way you describe awarding passiveness would bring about the draws of old which proved to be extremely disliked at best. All players want to survive but the aim is to win - at all costs. If I feel a suicidal incursion to enemy territory will win the battle for my team I would do so without hesitation. 

 

You, instead of being tactically obtuse, should play the battle according to how the rest of the team are playing and not to your own (possibly selfish) way.

 

Explain to me why you should attack at all with battleships, cruisers, destroyers ?!

 

Why don't you play defensively and wait for the carrier to destroy as much as he can and only attack once he runs out of planes, is destroyed ?!

 

Basically this is almost a "retorical question".

 

Bombers can be considered the "super form" of artillery.

 

Basically the idea of artillery is to weaken the enemy before charging in.

 

If you do opposite, that's not so smart is it now ? ;)

 

Yes your problem is "faith".... you must wait for that bombing to occur ?! Your dilemma is: Will it ever occur ?! ;)

[AgarwaenME]

 

Well there was a risk that it might not be smoke screen being replaced but actually something else... well now thanks to your post apperently it's turbo boost... nice... that keeps them even further away from my fleet ! ;)

 

Plenty of reserve bombers to go around... one little destroyer firing at one little bomber squad... while enemy fleet getting slaughtered by my fleet is an afforable price LOL

 

Now go pad yourself on the back for being totally useless ! LOL.

 

However if I ever find you to be right and me to be wrong I will be the first one to let you know ! ;)

 

The thought of having turbo boost replaced by something useless as defensive AA makes me feel so much at ease as CV !....

 

There I will be navigating away, turning in circles... avoiding your slow DD and your torpies waiting for that AA to run out... plenty of waiting thanks to no turbo boost !

 

Thanks man ! Bless you ! ;) =D

 

If you think Defensive fire is useless on a DD then you're massively stupid. Not only does it allow fletchers and gearings to shoot down reasonable (for a ship of that type) amount of planes, it also makes it A LOT HARDER to hit them from the air. Nevermind that these ships can easily drop a squad of planes that are just stupidly placed above them to spot. If you think that this is useless (compared to speed boost which is actually fairly useless) that tells us .. well.. that you're just as ignorant as we already knew. Turbo boost is mostly a tool to hunt down other DDs, or to very slightly quicker get to a cap or to run away from some CAs which are nearly as fast, it has next to no value in surviving air attacks, where you turn rate is the actually important factor.

 

Also, I've already shown you how you're wrong (and amazingly ignorant while somehow mixing in your typical "I do everything perfectly and I know everything" type of arrogance that only Dunning-Kruger can explain).

[aboomination]

Why don't you play defensively and wait for the carrier to destroy as much as he can and only attack once he runs out of planes, is destroyed ?!

 

Too obvious, won't chase!

 

[AgarwaenME]

 

Too obvious, won't chase!

 

 

 

It does make me wonder. Maybe he deep down understands that what he does in battles is just.. bad? And his braindead suggestions, not only this one but his even worse suggestion to change xp awards from earlier, are merely there because he wants the game to change so what he does is less stupid?

[SkybuckFlying]

 

If you think Defensive fire is useless on a DD then you're massively stupid. Not only does it allow fletchers and gearings to shoot down reasonable (for a ship of that type) amount of planes, it also makes it A LOT HARDER to hit them from the air. Nevermind that these ships can easily drop a squad of planes that are just stupidly placed above them to spot. If you think that this is useless (compared to speed boost which is actually fairly useless) that tells us .. well.. that you're just as ignorant as we already knew. Turbo boost is mostly a tool to hunt down other DDs, or to very slightly quicker get to a cap or to run away from some CAs which are nearly as fast, it has next to no value in surviving air attacks, where you turn rate is the actually important factor.

 

Also, I've already shown you how you're wrong (and amazingly ignorant while somehow mixing in your typical "I do everything perfectly and I know everything" type of arrogance that only Dunning-Kruger can explain).

 

Turbo boost will help to get closer to CV and then launch torpedoes at it (though might have little effect, the HE fire can be devastating though). AA does nothing as long as carrier keeps bombers away.

 

And then there is always the torpedo bomber that will make many destroyers turn in desperation.

 

No turning vs torpedo bomber can be the end of a destroyer ! Hihihihihihihi.

 

I have already experienced how hard it can be to bomb/destroy gearing/kagero, you could be right about that, however the opposite is also true. Sometimes they can die easy.

 

Sometimes even super easy thanks to detonation flag running out.

[AgarwaenME]

 

Turbo boost will help to get closer to CV and then launch torpedoes at it (though might have little effect, the HE fire can be devastating though). AA does nothing as long as carrier keeps bombers away.

 

And then there is always the torpedo bomber that will make many destroyers turn in desperation.

 

No turning vs torpedo bomber can be the end of a destroyer ! Hihihihihihihi.

 

I have already experienced how hard it can be to bomb/destroy gearing/kagero, you could be right about that, however the opposite is also true. Sometimes they can die easy.

 

Sometimes even super easy thanks to detonation flag running out.

 

In higher tiers you don't go hunt CVs in DDs unless the situation somehow force you. And if AAA keeps bombers off you while you do so, then that's what AAA is supposed to do. QED

 

And the spreads TBs gets when under defensive fire makes it pretty much impossible to get hit, even from an IJN CV cross torping. And DBs which might have a decent chance to hit with a bomb or two, gets reduced to nearly no chance at all.

 

Also, speed boost does NOTHING WHATSOEVER to your ability to turn, so the amount of help it gives you against TBs is next to nothing.

 

For now I think the only thing we can do with you is to rename you SkyTrumpFlying...

[aboomination]

Turbo boost will help to get closer to CV and then launch torpedoes at it (though might have little effect, the HE fire can be devastating though). AA does nothing as long as carrier keeps bombers away.

 

Ever tried to contest a cap in a DD with a good/decent CV player on the enemy team? [edited]!

Turbo boost will still not allow a DD to come close enough to a well-played mid to high tier CV in order to launch his torps unless that CV already has nowhere to run.

The main job of DD is not CV hunting but contesting caps/providing vision/map control/utility (smoke, base defense). CV is a great counter of DD. Thus defensive fire on a DD is not a bad choice.

 

Now tell us more about how well you understand your main class of ships.

[SkybuckFlying]

 

In higher tiers you don't go hunt CVs in DDs unless the situation somehow force you. And if AAA keeps bombers off you while you do so, then that's what AAA is supposed to do. QED

 

And the spreads TBs gets when under defensive fire makes it pretty much impossible to get hit, even from an IJN CV cross torping. And DBs which might have a decent chance to hit with a bomb or two, gets reduced to nearly no chance at all.

 

Also, speed boost does NOTHING WHATSOEVER to your ability to turn, so the amount of help it gives you against TBs is next to nothing.

 

For now I think the only thing we can do with you is to rename you SkyTrumpFlying...

 

So what do you do when defensive fire is on (and torpedo bomber is approaching) ? Drive in a straight line ? Or do you turn ? You seem to turn since you mention turbo boost not helping to turn.

 

If you turn even when defensive fire is on then BINGO, torpedo bomber did it's job !

 

No damage done, but you still turned, wasted some time and speed, just enough to keep out of detection range of CV or at the very least out of firing range !

 

This prevents battleships from firing at my carrier !

 

And makes your trip to my carrier longer ! much longer !

 

Gives me and my team more time to intercept you !

 

We will rename you to TurnAndAchieveNothingMe