t10 games are sub-par compared to lower tiers - issues

[_GrimLock__]

Is really that hard for them to make a nice addition every patch instead of"remodeling us bbs armour",improving the visual quality(i think they are blind because they are not improving anything) .As other gaming company they forget one thing:The battle itself.They are fixing ships (by fixing nerfing) but they are not looking at the main problems.Had been a war when the ships were just sitting in the back?we want the battles showing in the short clips they are promoting.

[Admiral_noodle]

It's not the T10 games that are the problem here.

 

Go play ranked and you'll notice that at the highest ranks this kind of "camping behavior" is turned to the extreme. It happens far more. Do you consider the vast majority in the highest tier of ranked battles to be "inexperienced"? Probably not. You see, the issue isn't with T10 games, it's with the lower tier games. The players being inexperienced is why in the lower tiers people rush in and the game opens up. At T10 people tend to be somewhat wiser and they're just less likely to do so.

 

Yes, there absolutely are times when you should push. And sometimes people in T10 do that, most often they just miss it (although often it's the tier 8s around the T10 that miss it). But that behavior is there with the lower tiers too - you just have more people that go "[edited]it, I'm rushing in and dying".

 

But everyone waits for something to happen and often it doesn't. Whereas in smaller games it seems easier to formulate a plan and execute. 

[Aerroon]

I agree and dissagree and why is that.Because most tx players think this way : If i can shoot at 20 km why push to face repair costs,if i have 12 km torps why push closer,i can stealth fire with zao why push.The problem is that t10 ships are way to capable ,if u were in war as a spotter and u couldnt see the muzzle flash and the smoke from guns from 11km or 16 km(stealth fire u know what ships i mean) u will had return from war without your "nutz".Why there is clusterfck at t4 t5 t6 t7 ,the ships capabilities are limited.But no when u can hit the intimate parts of a mosquito from 20km something is not right.

Ps:really the maps are way too big  

!!!But a really bad a thing if u will give spotting rewards will be the nail in the coffin for tx battles.The passivity willl just kill the game

 

Except the entire IJN BB line has those kinds of ranges, yet low tiers are somehow considered to be fine.

 

 

But everyone waits for something to happen and often it doesn't. Whereas in smaller games it seems easier to formulate a plan and execute. 

Because again, people don't know better and the ones running in and dying off open the game up. This happens less at T10 because people aren't suiciding anymore. The issue is that there is absolutely no incentive to ever be the tip of the spear in random battles.

[Syrchalis]

It is insanely hard to push, tank and then get out alive. The problem is that even if you die, you probably won the game - but you get no reward for it, but the other people. That feels very unfair.

[Admiral_Noif]

Yesterday, I played entire day on my Yamato battleship about +15 matches. Most of my battles were following really same story: Our team go to one of capture point and stay there entire match while enemies are taking 2 caps points and are pushing to our capture point. Our team action was really horrible... even more horrible than what I have seen in tier 1 battles. Why players become so passive after, they have got one capture point and stay there rest of the match? When I played on Yamato Battleship. I know that it can snipe, but I am quite aggressive player anyway so I try to go closer enemies and do much damage as I can on my Yamato. It is hard to push alone when entire enemy fleet are also camping in nearest capture point, when our team is doing as well. I enjoyed my Yamato gameplay, but very disappointment how the teamplay in the end tier battle is so passive and horrible camping most of the time.

 

I also suggest that there must be changes to high end tier battles. Is it a reason because of low credit earn and very expensive repair in High end battle? Or what is a reason what cause massive passive on entire team?

[Admiral_noodle]

 

Except the entire IJN BB line has those kinds of ranges, yet low tiers are somehow considered to be fine.

 

Because again, people don't know better and the ones running in and dying off open the game up. This happens less at T10 because people aren't suiciding anymore. The issue is that there is absolutely no incentive to ever be the tip of the spear in random battles.

 

The last sentence is probably the most important. At lower tiers get stuck in. You may die but who cares. Not so at tier X. 

 

Ive seen whole gaggles of ships refusing to be the one to go into cap because they will be the ones shot at. 

 

Team am battles are definitely not like this. The game itself I don't think is massively flawed...

 

in an earlier post I complained about cruisers getting close and cruiser and fire spam making me want to camp in a BB. In team play this isn't a problem. I say on comms "guys help" and they do. 

 

Divisions help massively too. But how do we get random players to coordinate more?

 

this is why my small game was so good. Only 6 of us and we all wanted to play as a team. How often is that going to happen in 12v12. 

[Namolis]

I will keep baning my drum on this: Syrchalis is right. The problem is that a mistake is punished by death. It doesn't even have to be your mistake, anything that cause the situation to change in such a way as to not make the push viable anymore will see you killed.

 

The reason for this is quite obvious when you think about it: your true defense is not armor or HP, but wasd. Those keys are less and less responsive as you go up the tiers, and that is true for all classes. Lethality of weapons go up, skill (probably) goes up, defensive ability goes down.

[_GrimLock__]

Sad fact that at highers tiers is that u wreck bbs quite easy.You push into them ,they panic starting to run away,turning ,exposing broadside,good night sweet prince.We might aswell start accepting the current situation the meta cant be fixed at this stage.Sad but true

[Diabolik__]

My solution shorten the range and make the teams larger 15 vs 15,limit dds to 3 per sider ,cv to 1 ,fix the stupid overpens!- i mean cmon when a frikkin 900 kilos shell goes through you it still shred's your boat even do it doesnt do citadel damage ,give bb's max 18 km range,cruisers 15 km range ,dds 9 ,8 km range on torps .Lower the repair costs at t9,t10 by 25% ,remove detonations,reduce maps size with in combination to  bbs range reduction they cant reach from the border the middle of the map.Better a close range clusterfck than a sniping clusterfck

 

 

Summa summarum:Constant cyclone is the solution with 8 Km visibility =)

 

 

Players are cowards in general, they dont wanna push, dont wannna die eve if they achieve nothing it is ok they survived.

 

I dont get that it's a fakin game not  a real life. So what if I get killed in first minutes? Big deal, I am gamer I have unlimited lives =P 

 

I don't think that lowering costs or range will improve gameplay that much, coward will always be coward.

 

 

[Admiral_noodle]

The game actually is partially to blame for cowardice. When you're getting shot the experience is not pleasant. Wobbling camera, noise, alarms. This is all good but does such a good job of making you feel under threat players avoid it.

 

Then there is the chat rage if you make a mistake...

 

Maybe high tier players are suffering from some kind of PTSD

 

I don't have the answer but maybe the meta will change over time as the community gets more experience. Maybe it won't! For now I'll try to division more and play with others at high tier. Solo it can be frustrating. But today's game proved it doesn't *have* to be like that.

[YukiEiriKun]

Good players need their meatshields or they can'r make those "EPIC 300K DMG CARRY" vids to youtubez. ;)

 

Naah. I know nothing about tier 10 so I'll just get my coat and leave...

[mtm78]

actually there is no need for this. good CVs always find a way to spot the critical locations with ther fighters or empty bombers. but introducing spotter planes would have no harm. they shouldnt be immune to the AA. CV should use them wisely. btw DDs have litte AA compared to other ships. theycan barely shoot down planes anyways.

 

One of your clan members is quite keen on proving different with his Gearing

 

As to topic: I don't play much high tier games because the switch from tier V - VIII to tier X and IX is quite big and it hurts my performance. I feel like I should only play top tier in divisions and not solo, if I want to have some confidence in what my team will do. Tier X is very much waiting for the enemy team to wrongfully commit in my experience, as the early aggressor is much more focused down then on the lower tiers. 

 

You can't blame that on mechanics, it's just that players seem to finally understand that focus fire kills ships, and dead ships don't shoot back. Go back to tier V - VIII and you will sometimes be able to stay alive a whole match with just a couple of hundred hp left. This is imo what makes the games feel passive: if you commit but you do so wrongly ( bad position or team composition to push at that location ) you pay for it much more than on lower tiers. Even addition of heal for cruisers doesn't fix this, nor do I think I know a 'fix'. Mostly because I don't know if it's actually 'broken'. 

[Ishiro32]

 

I think it might be simply lack of encouragement to push for map control. On high tier it seems like players are more savvy and try to find good opportunity. It’s not like losing cap early is the end of the game, early cap does not give any benefit that would start the game rolling on the other hand first blood for the team usually really gives the momentum to your team. So actually map control is less important than safety which does encourage very safe long range fights and it does punish very risky plays if they fail. That doesn’t mean you can ignore map control, but it just doesn’t really have huge presence.

 

Now I wonder, it does look similar to the League of Legends or DOTA teamfights, just stretched out in time. In those game any team fight usually looks either like this:

• Two teams gather near each other, different classes try to find distance which is safe for them but let them react quickly if needed
• Both teams dance around each other while trying to find opening. Long range characters are taking pot shots weakening enemy, tanks try to find opening in enemy formation so they can engage, assassins try to find wind around to conceal their presence
• One team thinks it found the opening so they initiate fight. After long preparation everyone engages from the positions they are

Or it looks like this

• Both teams dance around each other
• One team is out of position having it’s fragile characters at front. Initiation focuses fully on that character taking it out quickly
• One team retreats while attacking to force enemy to disengage. They will play defense or stealth attacks until their ally revive and their team capabilities recover

 

If we were to look at WoWs team fight as a stretched out LoL fight then we can see that WoWs is lacking initiator type of ship. If in LoL or DOTA tank starts then everyone in their team see this signal and react. When he engages he creates very beneficial position for their team, it’s clear for all and that’s why they are going with it, they see how good occasion is if they attack now. In WoWs benefit of BB pushing is fairly hidden from other players, there is no clear indication or benefit from rolling with it. At least not as obvious as in those other games. Not to mention that the Tank archetype in this game also is long range. BBs are fitted for both taking potshot during the “dancing” phase while at the same time they seem crucial for the push initiation with their HP and armor.

Other thing is that losing team has very hard time to recover if they mess up so it makes suicide risky runs so much more dangerous.

 

OFC WoWs is not DOTA or LoL so it doesn’t have the same dynamic progression of team fight, but still it seems like something is lacking. The initiation aspect which naturally shows your team that it’s the time to attack. I don’t care that you can give commands, people don’t trust other people in online game, but when they see that it’s the best time to attack and game will make it clear that it’s to their benefit they will do it without any communication. Every team game has that clear attack phase change the tempo on engagement, WoWs I think that tempo swing is not emphasized enough.

 

[Deckeru_Maiku]

 

Also I had the best tier X game ever while playing Bismarck today. Team play. Coordination. Tactics. It was great! Oh it was a 6v6 on ocean... I wonder if smaller games are more fun at high tier. I did 100k damage and sunk a Yamato... But that all thanks to team play and focussed fire. And communication!

 

Smaller games at high tier seem to work better.

 

IMHO smaller teams are ALWAYS more fun, not only at T10 (which I don't play because the few times I ended up with my T8 in T10 battles gave me extremely boring battles).

 

Ideal battle size for me would be:

 

1 CV

2 BBs

2-3 Cruiser

2-3 DDs

With a maximum of 8 ships per side

 

 

[Syrchalis]

The main difference between LoL and WoWs in this regard is that LoL features a gigantic amount of initiation abilities. Abilities that can stun or immobilize many enemies or simply force a fight by displacement or closing of distance rapidly. The other thing is that these abilities are highly telegraphed to their own teammates, allowing them to jump on the stunned enemies within half a second.

 

Now the problem in WoWs is that it's the reverse. If you go forward as BB and tank all enemy fire, you will be left alone nearly every time.

 

Worse yet, a BB coming 2-3km closer than the rest of it's team is - for the enemy - a highly telegraphed signal to attack, because suddenly something is closer (=actually hitable) and everyone is shooting the same thing (= very powerful in randoms).

 

So the enemies get a great advantage, because you automatically attack the nearest enemy, but your team doesn't get anything, because more often than not, the pushing BB is left alone.

[Ishiro32]

Pretty much what I wrote

 

[Syrchalis]

I just wanted to expand on it by saying that you give your enemies a signal to focus you, but your allies nearly always miss the signal to engage and take the heat from you once you're below 50%.

[Szatanshow]

I persoanly wtarted to just suicide  (chaging enemy...guns blazing and doing lots of dmg) when i see entire team camping in the back of the map .. better to be dead and play anothre battle in anther ship than spendig 15+ min watching ships sailing around map not doing anything....

i think repair costs and stats is what sacare ppl to bother to go guns blazing and posibly die...

[viceadmiral123]

When I play Tirptiz, and I get t10 MM it baffles me. People seem to think that the t8 Tirpitz is in "bad mm", when actually it's the other way around. I get to shoot at t10 cruisers' citadels, torpedo Yamatos at close range, and overall have a blast. Result - I play a free enjoyable playstyle, die, and earn 300k net profit, while the enemy t10 ships are at least -100k in the red (no premium taken into account). Even good players that played well in t10 ships are in the red. They don't even the experience for the t10 ship.

This game has a management concept going on considering the costs of running t10 ships in average game situations, if the developers do not change the entry tax/repair cost I would think that t10 is meant to be played only occasionally, when you have credits to spare. And that would make sense if t10 was more fun that lower tiers, but it's not.

[Woofbark]

I'm finding cruisers underpowered which doesn't help. DD's reign supreme at short range while BB's are supreme at long range. Cruisers are weak and can only hope to occupy the enemy for a while and hope their team mates are good enough to carry for them.

 

This leads to usually 2 mini fights between the BB's and the DD's with the DD fight being the most important in domination and the BB fight being about equally important in standard. 

 

People say BB's should go forward but why? What do you gain from moving forward? If each team has 3 equally spaced BB's that are shooting each other then one moves forward he gets a bit more accuracy on the one he is shooting at but all 3 enemy BB's get the same increase in accuracy against him while his teammates would have to move forward at the same time which they probably won't. Usually the best BB strategy is to fan out mid way between spawn and the cap points because you cover the biggest area. If you move close then opponents can get behind islands. If you are further back you cover the area between islands and the enemy can't hide from everyone or at best gets pinned. You also score citadels a lot more often due to plunging fire.

 

Nobody can kill DD's apart from CV's and other DD's because of stealth mechanic. Other classes can only shovel them away from certain areas if they are lucky. 

 

So most games are decided by DD players with BB's occasionally able to carry too. 

 

CV's obviously change things completely because they can de-cloak  the DD's but then the game gets decided by who has the better CV.

 

I imagine the Zao does well because it can play like a destroyer whilst taking up a cruiser slot.

 

Shimikaze is bad because most games are decided on a DD fight and it is weakest against enemy DD's

 

 

 

 

[WarburtonLee]

I have said it before and i say it again. The more i play, the more convinced i am. Make every single ship that looses and still lives blow up / sink at the end, with double repaircosts. Problem solved

[aboch]

I agree with the OP and even would make another point:

 

- in Tier 10 battles the divisions have a huge impact in my opinion. The biggest problem is in the battleship. Solo players like me have a huge disadvantage when in a yamato for example facing a division of yamatos. Not crying about it, but with the lack of team play when it comes to attacking its a disaster. 

 

Me personally has all tier 10, some of them i even did not play a single battle yet, just got them and left them in harbour for better times. The absolute main reason for me is that a captain can have only 18 skill points. I have absolutly no motivation to play a tier 10 captain with 18 skill points while i know i can not get another skill. I doubt i'am the only one that due this begins to train other captains for tier 6, 7 or 8 than immediatly and forgets about the tier 10 captains. These 18 skill captains are even no more used at the premium ships as there is nothing to gain for them ....

 

Everybody his own of course, many players may like the tier 10 battles, for me they are not enjoying and i prefer tier 4 - 8 with more action, more sailing around, more break throughs, more attacking and more game play, and i would even go that far to say with more team play. Yesss, more team play.

 

In mid tier teams you might be able to encourage the team to do something togehter, while in tier 10 games even if the only 2 yamatos go somewhere, they are left alone by everybody and soon you will see the DDs and cruisers far behind you still sitting behind their lovely isle or rock......

 

I try here and there some tier 10 battle again every week, just to realize again and again, that its not fun at all.

[Admiral_noodle]

I have said it before and i say it again. The more i play, the more convinced i am. Make every single ship that looses and still lives blow up / sink at the end, with double repaircosts. Problem solved

 

...and/or reduce repair costs for winning. We don't need even bigger costs! 

But I agree with the sentiment. Make people play to win!

 

[mike_864]

One of the good things about T10 is you have the best ships in the game, i only have my Des Moines and i love it, unlike a T6 ship which can end up in a T8 game it is good to know i will never meet a T12 opponent,

 

maps can be a problem though, yesterday had a match on a map i've never seen before ( Warrior or something ) had a nice cluster of islands at the centre, first thing i did was to tell my nearest Yamato ( Amazing Beaver ) that i'll stick with him, this encouraged a DD to join us and we pushed straight into the fight, the DD spotted for us, i used Radar to spot hidden DD's and poured a rain of shells on anything we saw and the Yamato tanked like a boss, we carved our way through the map using the occasional island to get in close, capping twice, great game, very aggressive, we won ( i came 2nd ). Next game, islands of ice, awful, no one would go anywhere near the open centre of the map, game over in 11min decided by capping DDs, we lost but both teams had terrible scores.!

 

I know it's situational but i like aggressive play even if it ends up in a loss, just build up a war chest of a few million credits and go for it

[159Hunter]

It's just getting more and more annoying.

- Lemming trains,

- Lemming trains taking the longest possible road to avoid enemy contact,

- Once they make contact they run,

- Camping at max range.

 

This aint fun gameplay anymore.