Comparison of AA strengths of T8 battleships

[SeaBaer__67]

Hi,

There was recently a (troll) post about Tirpitz AA. This post made me interested in how the T8 BBs compare AA wise based on the in-game data. Since I have all three T8 BBs and like doing stuff in Excel, I prepared a simple analysis.

 

Setting

• AA aura damage is compared with different captain skills
• In order to consider different AA ranges, we assume that a plane flies straight at the ship at a speed of 0,3 km/s
• All ships with top tier hulls, but without AA modules or flags

Insights

• In the default state, Tirpitz has indeed the weakest AA
• However, Tirpitz benefits the most from manual AA
• A manual AA Tirpitz is damage-wise better than an AFT Amagi
• Manual AA yields the largest % increases on all ships, even the Amagi
• However, only Tirpitz and North Carolina have a large part of their AA DPS in durable dual purpose guns

Caveats

• As others have pointed out below, there are additional factors which are not quantified here
• If the CV makes a lot of re-adjustments with his planes, AFT is of advantage
• Similarly, with AFT your AA aura can overlap more with that of friendly ships, creating some AA synergies
• The way the game determines whether or not a plane get shot down is complicated. This is not considered here. There could be a overproportionate effect for planes that stay in your AA aura for longer

 

AA damage comparison

% aura damage from dual purpose guns

 

---

Captain skill scenarios

• Setting: Tirpitz has only its dual purpose guns available
• Question: how many non-dual purpose guns would the enemy ship have to lose, so that the AA DPS breaks even
• Example: An AFT Amagi would have to lose an avg. of 45% of its AA turrets to have the same damage as an AFT Tirpitz that has only access to its dual purpose guns

 

 

Key take-aways for a CV - Amagi v Tirpitz

• When faced with a Tirpitz that has manual AA or both manual AA and AFT, it makes sense to go for the Amagi in most scenarios
• If the Amagi has AFT (a likely case), and the Tirpitz manual AA, the Amagi only needs to lose >9% of its turrets to have weaker AA
• CV players must consider a set of variables; for instance, Amagi still has the better torpedo bulge compared to Tirpitz

Key take-aways for a CV - North Carolina v Tirpitz

• Unsurprisingly, when the choice is between a Tirpitz and NorthCal, it makes sense to go for the Tirpitz in most cases
• In some extreme cases where the NorthCal has seen extensive HE damage, it might make sense to prioritise it over the Tirpitz. An AFT NorthCal will be weaker than a manual AA Tirpitz if it has lost >78% of its AA turrets

AA at T8 comparison - Kopie.xlsx

[Kamikazesushi]

Nice post. Good to know.

 

Sometimes I wonder if it is advantageous to select a manual target for AA. You increase the DPS but it affects only one squadron. Lets say 2 squadrons are incoming...or 3. Is it better to select one of them as a target or let your AA shoot at all ofthem with reduced DPS....It must be different for every ship and combination of skills and modules....

[Ictogan]

Nice post. Good to know.

 

Sometimes I wonder if it is advantageous to select a manual target for AA. You increase the DPS but it affects only one squadron. Lets say 2 squadrons are incoming...or 3. Is it better to select one of them as a target or let your AA shoot at all ofthem with reduced DPS....It must be different for every ship and combination of skills and modules....

 

Each AA aura can only shoot at one squadron at a time no matter whether you select a target or not, just that the squadron it shoots at will be selected automatically if you don't select one.

[Tyrendian89]

Nice post. Good to know.

 

Sometimes I wonder if it is advantageous to select a manual target for AA. You increase the DPS but it affects only one squadron. Lets say 2 squadrons are incoming...or 3. Is it better to select one of them as a target or let your AA shoot at all ofthem with reduced DPS....It must be different for every ship and combination of skills and modules....

 

except it doesnt work like that. AA only targets one squadron with each aura, regardless of focusing. It's just DefAA that panics every squadron in range, but even then damage only goes to one squadron per aura.

 

And while these straight up number comparisons are doubtless very useful, there's another factor that helps AFT be the (in my opinion) "better choice" over Manual AA on NC and probably also Amagi. Your math only works out exactly like that in a vacuum (which isn't a critique of your method at all!). Planes almost never go straight towards one ship, drop immediately and then go straight back out. Angles of aproach are adjusted, planes will sometimes hover nearby picking the best (i.e. least maneuvering) target, fighter battles go on - and in all of those cases, AFT can and will allow more of your AA auras to take effect for a much longer period than usual. Besides, ships with insane AA like the NC can also protect nearby allies much much better when their insane AA reaches out to double the map area (which is what the math works out to with AFT+AA range module). Again, not a critique of your work at all - seeing the actual numbers nicely formatted is very good - but more of an additional/side perspective.

[SeaBaer__67]

You are raising some good points, and you are right that many factors play a role for the optimal AA choice.

 

IMO the case for manual AA on the Tirpitz is quite clear. Amagi with manual AA does not make sense due to the lack of dual purpose guns. So it's AFT for the Amagi. For the NorthCal the decision for one of both skills (or the order in which to skill them) is probably hardest.

 

An additional factor for AFT is that ships with long-range AA should benefit disproportionately from it. By further extending their AA range, the likelihood for overlapping with friendly AA auras and getting some AA synergies should increase.

[Tyrendian89]

You are raising some good points, and you are right that many factors play a role for the optimal AA choice.

 

IMO the case for manual AA on the Tirpitz is quite clear. Amagi with manual AA does not make sense due to the lack of dual purpose guns. So it's AFT for the Amagi. For the NorthCal the decision for one of both skills (or the order in which to skill them) is probably hardest.

 

agreed in full

AFT does also have the amusing but not exactly gamewinning benefit of making your secondaries pewpew at longer ranges, which might net you the occasional fire...

[Spellfire40]

 

agreed in full

AFT does also have the amusing but not exactly gamewinning benefit of making your secondaries pewpew at longer ranges, which might net you the occasional fire...

 

​You only say that If you havnt seen manual sec Amagis 

20k sec damage is posible and it gives DDs something to think about If they come in for a yolo run. AFT makes the Auras big enough to be efectiv.

[Kamikazesushi]

 

except it doesnt work like that. AA only targets one squadron with each aura, regardless of focusing. It's just DefAA that panics every squadron in range, but even then damage only goes to one squadron per aura.

I double checked and you are right....i must have missunderstood the mechanic. Thanks Tyrendian and Ictogan.

[BabyAdmiral]

Lots of info.

 

Some great research you have done here. Nice info to have. 

[duoinvasion]

Just one thing, even though it's small, you forgot BFT. 

[Tyrendian89]

Just one thing, even though it's small, you forgot BFT. 

 

which impacts each ship the same, and is not mutually (soft) exclusive with anything else relevant, so it's superfluous in this context

[duoinvasion]

 

which impacts each ship the same, and is not mutually (soft) exclusive with anything else relevant, so it's superfluous in this context

 

ah, I did not know that, sorry for my previous post.

[Tyrendian89]

 

ah, I did not know that, sorry for my previous post.

 

don't worry about it - it's an obvious thing to notice at first glance just doesn't really make a difference in this case, so it's not really needed

[orlathebeast]

this is veeeeeery interesting.

[22cm]

Except that:  

Manual AA doubles the AA damage of guns > 85 mm,  but only  against a designated target,  if you don t actively select a target,  those guns will not fire at all. 

And as long as there is no GE BB line,  you will probably use a GE cruiser captain in Tirpitz,  and that cruiser would benefit more from AFT because it can panic TBs at longer ranges,  defending its team. 

[22cm]

 

Each AA aura can only shoot at one squadron at a time no matter whether you select a target or not, just that the squadron it shoots at will be selected automatically if you don't select one.

 

Not when Manual AA is used,  guns > 85 mm will not fire if a target is not selected. 

[Tyrendian89]

 

Not when Manual AA is used,  guns > 85 mm will not fire if a target is not selected. 

 

wrong. That is true for manual secondaries, but not for AA. That will still fire, it just won't get the bonus.

[AdmiralHipster]

 

But this Argument works the other way round: If you select a target via Manual AA and then Need to start i.e. maneuvering it becomes more difficult to properly select the next squadron with Manual AA, so you might miss on AA usage on reasonable Targets in that way.

 

Also: I am not certain whether DPSxrange is actually a good measure of AA Performance due to its probabilistic nature. Cannot say anything substantial about this though, just want to say that this must not be the case.

 

Anyway I would say that AFT frequently helps in Attrition situations, helps with secondaries and thus is superior to Manual AA when you go beyond pure AA dps against one striking squadron. Even on Tirpitz, but due to the weak AA and plenty secondaries I still went for Manual AA first. This does not guarantee mathematical reasonability though.

 

[22cm]

 

wrong. That is true for manual secondaries, but not for AA. That will still fire, it just won't get the bonus.

 

Nah,  it s as I said.  Check the skill in wows.wiki. 

[KPtja]

 

wrong. That is true for manual secondaries, but not for AA. That will still fire, it just won't get the bonus.

As mentioned by 22cm

 

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Crew_(WoWS)#Manual_Fire_Control_for_AA_Armament'>http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Crew_(WoWS)#Manual_Fire_Control_for_AA_Armament

 ''This doesn't mean manual aim. It improves the damage per second of AA guns larger than 85 mm, but requires the player to manually select a target by holding down Ctrl and left-clicking on it. With this skill, AA larger than 85 mm will not fire at all without manual target selection. AA of 85 mm or less will operate normally, and without this accuracy bonus. In practice this means the player controls the dual-purpose guns.

 

I have this skill on Tirpitz, but my capability to observe do they shoot or not in heat of battle is not good enough to say is wiki right or not.