Is Flint really that OP?

[_FTD_]

I'm not going to write essay over essay here just to satisfy you, if you can't work with what I've given you so far then I'm sorry.

[gr0pah]

what armour does it have though(not seen the video)seriously if it has the same armour as the Atlanta then it will sink just as easy 

 

Played a Flint/Flint/Pensacola division (2-3 times) yesterday. In one of the games I was basically not spotted the entire game. It was literal perma-smoke, and almost perma-hydro plus a catapult plane for spotting. The enemy team made a half circle around us on the minimap, because the amount of fire coming out of that smoke cloud was insane. 

 

In my humble opinion it's OP for sure, because divisions. Without divisions it's a really good ship, with divisions it's brokenly hilarious/hilariously broken.

 

But with that said I think:

1. They should let it stay as it is

2. Just give out another reward ship for next triple Ranked win (aka. give Flint the Imperator treatment)

 

 

[GulvkluderGuld]

- First and foremost, he had an uncontested spotter - that friendly farragut.   Yeah most games their is a whole bunch of friendly ships spotting a CA that uses his guns for you, having a DD for that is not really necessary. 

As a DD player I can tell you from experience that quite often, you as the dd are the only dude spotting anything. Pop smoke = nothing spotted. Seen it almost every match in ranked and quite often in tier 8+ games.

- There was no dd on the other side to contest the spotting. How would he contest the spotting? Just killling of a stealty DD in one strike? And how would their DD get so close to spot our spotter without getting instakilled by the Flint?

There are destroyers with better concealment than the flint. In fact, there are DDs with better concealment than the Farragut. They wouldnt need to get spotted at all, just spot the Farragut for his CAs to shoot up.

Once the Farragut is dead, nobody spots for the Flint, then he can chose to stay in smoke and do nothing, or leave it to spot for himself. Either way, he is vulnerable.

- Tier 7 max match meaning no Radar ships (the obvious counter) And this will be the reality most times, even if their is a Radar CA in the match it needs to get close enough to use radar without getting spotted by anyone and not getting killed by Fling HE or torps. Good luck getting someone for that suicide mission!

Radar has 10-12 km range depending on nation. A Chapayev could sit outside the Flints effective range and spot it.

- Enemy CAs comes at him one at a time, typical random battles style, then break off. Better players would keep pushing into the smoke bow-on with hydro and torping /citadelling the hell out of him. Yeah, it is typical "Random style" but since i play most Random i feel this IS gonna be an issue soon. "Better players" pushing in to giant smoke with a flamethrower and torps coming out of it?!  Ok, im guessing im not a "Better player" then because i wont.

Point taken, but once you've made the first mistake and rushed around that corner in front of the Flints guns....well you are dead anyway - breaking off isnt an option.

Better to try and take someone with you   And looking at the ranges, the CAs lauching torps closed to 6 km. It is only another 1-2 km for hydro range - not an impossible distance.

 

As I see it, this ship certainly is very very good. I will be very curious to see how it does in a Ranked or team battles environment, as I suspect the answer is: not nearly as good. You cant see it being good in Ranked or Team battles? Really? Whats the drawback for the Flint in Ranked or Team? That he has great firedamage? Great torps? Being invicible 80% of the match? Great AA?

Atlantas were a pain in Ranked, sitting behind islands or in DD smokescreens and spamming BBQ death. But hardly overpowered, because both sides had smokescreens and stayed behind smoke 24/7.

If the other team smokes up too and contest the spotting dd (as per the ranked season 4 high rank meta) I just dont see the Flint being more than another Atlanta. Why do you focus on the spotting DD? How are you gonna be able to do anything to that DD when he is in stealth and you are not in youre CA?! And how is the entire enemy team just gonna smoke up? Have you seen this work much in Random? And sure, the enemy team can use Flints aswell and smoketactics but that really dont say anything more then this ship being OP with this smoke as it is.

Nope, haen't seen this level of teamwork in Randoms - which is why I brought up the question of how it will do in Ranked/Team battles.

It is also an awfull easy target for torpedoes, although equipping Hydro will mitigate that threat somewhat. The problem with this is, with that huge smokecloud you wouldnt even secure a kill with a Shima and its 15 torps. The smoke is HUGE and stays forever and 30 sec after he can pop another one.

I've secured plenty of kills with my Blyskawica 2x3 torps on DDs sitting in smoke.  Unless he uses hydro, a CA would be a much easier target.

The reason you won't nail the Flint this way with only 1 torp spammer is because he is a good player, who knows how to dodge, not because of the ship. Killing good players would take more ships and more torps.

In Tier 8+ matches it runs into things like Radar ships, BBs with railguns, and engagements take place at longer ranges in general.  See above, who will volunteer to go into smoke in a tier 8-9 battle? You will get spotted by someone and getting focused by all enemy. RADAR is not a OP counter to this ship.

Honestly, if you have 16 km range, just ignore the flint sitting in smoke and shoot something else while staying out of his range. Take another cap etc.

Nobody has to enter the smoke. If there is a handy island to hide behind (there often is), they dont even need to take damage. 

Some ships have Radar that outranges the Flint. US ships would have to enter its range, but they would still be outside it's effective range. 

If you have superior numbers, coordinate in chat and go in together. One ship may lose a lot of hp, but probably nowhere near as much as you think. And Flint will have to retreat or die.

I suspect Flints will do well regardless, but that will be due to expert players sailing it and avoiding BB fire effectively more than to the ship.  You dont really need to be an expert to pop smoke or spam fire.

You also have to survive. Flint is squishy and prone to getting one-shotted by BBs. That 30s window is plenty time to kill it. Also see my point about torpedoes.

Also, see this:

So i watched video.

 

This guy is smashing potatos , i don't think he will be able to sit so calmly in smoke against players

 

On tier 1 people know that if you see smoke shoot everything you have there, torps, guns , charge and kill whatever sit in there. On tier 7 potatos seeing smoke run away in panic

I have nothing to add

[gr0pah]

One thing I'd like to add is that I don't care at all for the much used argument argument "yeah smashing potatoes", dripping with disdain and arrogance. 

 

Newsflash: the game is populated by literally tens of thousands of potatoes. In the eyes of most fervent potato-haters here, I'd guess +90% of the server population is considered potatoes. And those potatoes are what you/we farm to get our WTR, damage and WR up. Without the "potatoes", the game would be less fun.

 

A ship like Flint has the potential to ruin the potatoes day, because they have no idea how to counter it. If the Flint becomes common = game enjoyment for potatoes goes down = players leaving. 

 

That's bad. I love potatoes, and I want them in WoWs.

 

EDIT: The Flint is two (2) Gearings  Mahans sitting in a 121 second smoke at tier 7. How many tier 5-7 players ("potatoes") can counter that? I sure as hell couldn't when I was at the Omaha, and I'd not really want to try now either.

[javanse]

One thing I'd like to add is that I don't care at all for the much used argument argument "yeah good vs potatoes", dripping with disdain and arrogance. 

 

Newsflash: the game is populated by literally tens of thousands of potatoes. In the eyes of most fervent potato-haters here, I'd guess +90% of the server population is considered potatoes. And those potatoes are what you/we farm to get our WTR, damage and WR up. Without the "potatoes", the game would be less fun.

 

A ship like Flint has the potential to ruin the potatoes day, because they have no idea how to counter it. If the Flint becomes common = game enjoyment for potatoes goes down = players leaving. 

 

That's bad. I love potatoes, and I want them in WoWs.

 

This is it! Thank you!

[GulvkluderGuld]

 

I forgot about the new atlanta Radar, but both Indy and Atlant have pretty short radar range, around 8 km, dont they?

So they would need to get pretty close. Seems you had better Indy players then I did ;) Mine never got close enough to use their radar effectively

 

 

To sum up my thoughts, I think flint might be a bit OP

 

this is not about a cruiser having smoke in general (kutuzov seems fine), this is about a T7 cruiser having a T10 DD smoke without there being a good counter at T7

 

Time will tell

 

 

 

Had some Indy player who rushing into caps 2 mins into the game to "use radar" too 

At higher ranks they were fewer though. The Indy players liked to park on the rock in Islands of ice between the A and B points, on their "own side". Other maps had similar positions.

From there they could reach most of the cap circle on the other side. It was incredibly annoying to play against (and good to play with). 

 

I do suspect the Flint is slightly OP even against skilled hands, because the smoke is so good. As you say, time will tell

[OldschoolGaming_YouTube]

I'm not going to write essay over essay here just to satisfy you, if you can't work with what I've given you so far then I'm sorry.

 

Well, since you really havent given me an answer yet and not much to "work with" im guessing the disscusion is over then. I really didnt want to turn the thread into a pissing contest but i just saw this video and felt like, "OK, so they took the Atlanta and gave it a invicibility cloth and great torp?" And i see this as a problem, hence the "Is Flint really that OP" thread.

 

Radar has 10-12 km range depending on nation. A Chapayev could sit outside the Flints effective range and spot it. 

 

The Russian radai is 11. something isnt it? Anf Flints range is 13.3k, so no. And the DD being the only thing spotting?! Maybe at first encounter in the game but after that all CAs will pretty much spot eachother when they fire their guns with the consealment penalty.

And regarding the teamwork in ranked. You dont need it. This ship will have all it need on its own. The only thing it really needs is other ships in the game to spot someone. Check.

 

And all i get as counter argument is "Naah, just rush it, Braah!" and "Dont sail in straight lines, dude", im  just guessing it will be pretty OP because i dont really see those counters being that efficient. So im just hoping i will be able to buy one for myself soon before i need to met them in next ranked battle.

 

With that said, i got my answers and im out! Peace.

[Kartoffelmos]

EDIT: The Flint is two (2) Gearings sitting in a 121 second smoke at tier 7. How many tier 5-7 players ("potatoes") can counter that? I sure as hell couldn't when I was at the Omaha, and I'd not really want to try now either.

 

More like two (2) Mahans or 1,2 Gearings but whatever floats your boat, I suppose (the smoke is identical to the ones used by Mahan as well). Besides that, how is it any less difficult to deal with destroyers in smoke? Contrary to destroyers, the Flint does not have the luxury of a good stealth rating (relatively speaking), so it cannot escape as easily when the smoke dissipates. Mahan also has the advantage of more torpedoes/broadside with a 10 second shorter reload, giving it better close quarters defence.

 

In any case, I'd rather wait for server stats before I brand it OP, but even when they get published, one better consider that the majority of Flint captains are competent players.

[Sub_Eleven]

The smoke radius does seem a bit excessive and way to long duration on it. Other then that, it's still basicly an atlanta. Nice when top tier, but gonna have a very hard time vs tier 8 and 9's.

[GulvkluderGuld]

 

Well, since you really havent given me an answer yet and not much to "work with" im guessing the disscusion is over then. I really didnt want to turn the thread into a pissing contest but i just saw this video and felt like, "OK, so they took the Atlanta and gave it a invicibility cloth and great torp?" And i see this as a problem, hence the "Is Flint really that OP" thread.

 

Radar has 10-12 km range depending on nation. A Chapayev could sit outside the Flints effective range and spot it. 

 

The Russian radai is 11. something isnt it? Anf Flints range is 13.3k, so no. And the DD being the only thing spotting?! Maybe at first encounter in the game but after that all CAs will pretty much spot eachother when they fire their guns with the consealment penalty.

And regarding the teamwork in ranked. You dont need it. This ship will have all it need on its own. The only thing it really needs is other ships in the game to spot someone. Check.

 

And all i get as counter argument is "Naah, just rush it, Braah!" and "Dont sail in straight lines, dude", im  just guessing it will be pretty OP because i dont really see those counters being that efficient. So im just hoping i will be able to buy one for myself soon before i need to met them in next ranked battle.

 

With that said, i got my answers and im out! Peace.

 

If it came across as a pissing contest, I regret that. I personally don't feel that way and have to disagree, but apologies if you felt pissed on 

 

I thought Chapayev had a 12 km radar and Flint a 12 km shooting distance (thought that is what chase said - at least before AFT).

 

Anyway, what it boils down to is the Flint can create a no-sail zone of 12 km that is hard to deal with. Some answers were suggested, but they require teamwork or special consumables.

However, the Flint wants you to sail into the smoke, so simply avoiding it should do the trick. BBs already do that vs aggressive DD smokes.

[Kashuken]

Sounds OP but only if the enemy are spotted.

 

If camping in smoke you cannot see ships yourself, you have to rely on others so those in divisions with other ships are playing to there strengths which is not a problem.

 

Then again randoms are terrible, ranked is better for seeing how a ship performs against non potatoes.

[GuzLightyear]

The flint at ranges above 11km is mostly useless against everything that's not a BB because of the looong shell time. If somebody pops radar he might be in range, but the flint will have a very difficult time hitting it if the player is actively avoiding being shot. And it instantly becomes the target of the whole enemy team.

 

Either way you have to take into account that the flint is awarded only to the best players. It's obvious that his stats are going to be WAAAAY better than the atlanta's , a ship that anybody with 0 experience can buy.

[Panzerblitz]

As Alpha tester I can safely say that the Flint's combination of smoke, dps and 9.2 km torps is....to put it mildly...challenging. It will be very frustrating for casuals to deal with this.

 

But the elephant in the room is the whole smoke meta. Smoke should always have been a defensive consumable, but instead it's an offensive weapon comparable to a Klingon cloaking device.

 

I guess the proper counter would be to make radar and sonar an option on more ships.

[GulvkluderGuld]

As Alpha tester I can safely say that the Flint's combination of smoke, dps and 9.2 km torps is....to put it mildly...challenging. It will be very frustrating for casuals to deal with this.

 

But the elephant in the room is the whole smoke meta. Smoke should always have been a defensive consumable, but instead it's an offensive weapon comparable to a Klingon cloaking device.

 

I guess the proper counter would be to make radar and sonar an option on more ships.

 

Very true.

 

I really dislike the importance of smoke in ranked. 

It should give a large dispersion penalty to shots, not make targets inside invisible.

That would eliminate the invisifiring meta still give overextended DDs a chance to make their escape.

[svadilfari]

it´s a nice ship. it better be for the ranked effort we put in. so thanks wows team for the great reward!!

to all the op whiners: you shoot it with any AP at any angle, it´s gonna penetrate.  it´s basically a slow, big, sluggish DD with less range and hilariously long shell travel time. in other words: you need to be a decent player to make the ship work. present a broadside to anything at any time and you´re dead

[Mik1984]

Flint might seem OP, but take in consideration that this is a reward ship for winning two ranked seasons in a row, so it is going to be used by relatively good players.

[gr0pah]

 

More like two (2) Mahans or 1,2 Gearings but whatever floats your boat, I suppose (the smoke is identical to the ones used by Mahan as well). Besides that, how is it any less difficult to deal with destroyers in smoke? Contrary to destroyers, the Flint does not have the luxury of a good stealth rating (relatively speaking), so it cannot escape as easily when the smoke dissipates. Mahan also has the advantage of more torpedoes/broadside with a 10 second shorter reload, giving it better close quarters defence.

 

In any case, I'd rather wait for server stats before I brand it OP, but even when they get published, one better consider that the majority of Flint captains are competent players.

Yes it's more like 2 Mahans, that is correct. Although with 2.7 km longer range. And much better capability to fire over islands. 

 

Same smoke.

 

Please, the Flint has Benson torps so every single torp does 4900 more damage (43% more) than Mahan torp.

 

Well, if you think a Mahan has better close quarters defense than 6 double turrets (so two Mahans) sitting in smoke, pouring out fire, with hydro.. whatever floats your boat. 

 

Also this:

In my humble opinion it's OP for sure, because divisions. Without divisions it's a really good ship, with divisions it's brokenly hilarious/hilariously broken.

 

EDIT: I also own it and have played it, I from your comments I suspect you don't and haven't?

[Kuso_Teitoku]

 

I know its a reward ship wiht better then average players and we cant judge it purely by stats, but its stats look pretty nice atm. (NA server stats btw)

 

 

[gr0pah]

it´s a nice ship. it better be for the ranked effort we put in. so thanks wows team for the great reward!!

to all the op whiners: you shoot it with any AP at any angle, it´s gonna penetrate.  it´s basically a slow, big, sluggish DD with less range and hilariously long shell travel time. in other words: you need to be a decent player to make the ship work. present a broadside to anything at any time and you´re dead

 

So I, and others, like mfour, who own the ship and calls it OP are "whiners"?  If you don't realize it's an amazingly good ship, and OP, you are either:

i) not a skilled player;

ii) not understanding how to play Flint; or

iii) playing dumb because you don't want it to be nerfed

 

You pick.

 

And "slow, sluggish DD" doesn't matter when it's in smoke. I'm not sure what you mean with "less range", but it surely doesn't have shorter range than comparable USN DDs. The argument "present broadside and you're dead" is useless as that goes for every cruiser of every nation and tier.

 

Flint might seem OP, but take in consideration that this is a reward ship for winning two ranked seasons in a row, so it is going to be used by relatively good players.

It is OP. And I love it. But that doesn't mean I can't call it like I see it.

 

The Imperator is often considered OP. One experienced player, mtm78 owns the Imperator and he's often stated it's OP as hell. Doesn't mean he doesn't like the ship.

 

Here is my clan mates mfour stats in the Flint yesterday:

[crazy5982]

Now sure that Flint replay is impressive, does the smoke make it OP? Possibly.

 

I had a similar situation where I was in my Myoko on the same map, but it was domination mode.

 

I was able to hold the flank against superior numbers with a few allies (who all died), taking little damage due to dodging and not being the primary target.

I do make the mistake of tunnel visioning at one point and nearly die due to it, but I manage to survive and win the game.

 

Now does this make the Myoko OP?

 

Replay for those interested: http://wowreplays.com/Replay/12763

 

BTW watch for the gunfire from the smoke then torp that location and as the Flint is larger than a DD it should be easier to hit with the torps.

[Takeda92]

It works both ways. Why are the same people who haven't seen Flint defend it and say it is not OP? 

 

What's with the playerbase and defending premiums mentality?

[Stixius]

Considering it only going to be used by skilled players who will now be using them against teams of predominantly average and / or low-skill players in random battles. How easy do you think it'll be to play against when its supported by other ships? It may prove to be a bit of a game breaker like the T22 reward tank was. I'm not looking forward to encountering it. But time will tell if it's OP or just very good.

[gr0pah]

It works both ways. Why are the same people who haven't seen Flint defend it and say it is not OP? 

 

What's with the playerbase and defending premiums mentality?

 

I agree it's amusing/bewildering. 

 

Every single player that I have talked with (6 persons, so far) on TS that owns the Flint has agreed it's a hilarious funny ship, and kinda broken. So far most or all that defend it on the forums seems to not own it. It makes no sense at all.

 

DISCLAIMER: I own the Flint.

(13 point captain, same as mfour)

[fnord_disc]

If I defend the Flint now, will you remember me and help me defend the next OP premium I buy? Recruiting allies, bonus points if you have a twitter bot.

[Takeda92]

If I defend the Flint now, will you remember me and help me defend the next OP premium I buy? Recruiting allies, bonus points if you have a twitter bot.

 

It's a premium ship. It is defended by the devs by default. You don't players to defend them.

 

I mean, you actually think the devs don't know how strong/OP (take your pick) this ship is? They are the ones who balanced it after Atlanta, they know what were they doing.