Possible solution to sniping

[Ginger_General]

At the moment when a DD spots an enemy, if you're in a BB or a long range cruiser you can snipe from your own max range.   (I have not included carriers in this idea, some creative thinking will be needed for how that spotting works)       What if instead you have to be within the communication radius of the allied ship that is actually spotting the enemy ships?    So a DD may have a smaller communication radius than a cruiser and a cruiser less than a BB due to crew size and communication abilities on ships.       The ranges of this example are totally flexible:       Purely as an example a DD can communicate enemy positions it detects to allies within 8km of the DD. And allies within 8km of the DD are able to shoot any targets the DD itself has spotted.   But maybe a cruiser can communicate enemies spotted to allies within 10km and their allies can shoot at enemies within that 10km radius of the cruiser.       I think it is important to have these increasing radii as larger ships have larger crews and if you keep it in line with WW2 history more channels to communicate to allies.       This would mean BBs can act more as capital ships when they push spotting for allies and when they don't push they won't be able to shoot enemies unless they are pushing or retreating with allies as they will not be close enough to allies to know where enemies are.   This would force the teamwork of DDs up front with cruisers and BB behind but very close together.           But I feel this would cause allies to have to work together within their spotting/detection ranges. And focus on the right targets. It would create teamwork where there is none and reduce solo play unless in a DD for example that is designed to be a scout but not necessarily engage.   Finally BB wouldn't be able to snipe from max range and would have to work with allies and tank for them. A yamato could no longer snipe from 26km if none of it's allies nearby are spotting for it and "automatically communicating" where enemies are.   For a yamato to snipe from this range it would need an enemy to be within 11km of an allied battleship that can communicate enemy positions up to 15km to allies. But if there are no allies spotting it can do nothing to snipe.         Last and not least, this would also add spotting damage into the game. So DD, CA even BB pushing and communicating to allies are rewarded for doing so.       Please add any suggestions below and I'll try and add them to the OP.    Also if you think the idea is bad, say so but please suggest how you'd improve it.   Thanks           Thanks to Spuggy for finding this diagram below which helps explain it:             Let me be clear I'm not suggesting that all the above circles show up on the minimap for your ship. This would be far too confusing, just the circles that are available to you.   Also allies you can't spot would show up with a transparent icon in the same way they do now if they're outside your acquisition range.   Lastly if there are many allied ships clustered together there would be a communication outline to show the communication radius of the fleet you're currently in a cluster with during the battle.       Finally something else I thought of is BB could have the ability to boost the range they can transmit enemy locations to allies for a certain duration. If Wargaming wanted to make it more historically accurate, those nations with BB that used radar from an earlier point would broadcast to a greater range.

[RamirezKurita]

I think that the suggestion is overall too complicated and will likely be difficult to implement, as well as likely being quite unclear on the minimap due to every single ship's communication range being important.

 

I also feel that sniping has it's place in game, just that currently it has too large a place, and trying to lock it out of the game would likely remove too many tactical options for battleships. I'd rather see sniping discouraged, rather than being impossible.

[Nagine]

At the moment when a DD spots an enemy, if you're in a BB or a long range cruiser you can snipe from your own max range. (I have not included carriers in this idea, some creative thinking will be needed for how that spotting works)   What if instead you have to be within the communication radius of the allied ship that is actually spotting the enemy ships?  So a DD may have a smaller communication radius than a cruiser and a cruiser less than a BB due to crew size and communication abilities on ships.   The ranges of this example are totally flexible:   Purely as an example a DD can communicate enemy positions it detects to allies within 8km of the DD. And allies within 8km of the DD are able to shoot any targets the DD itself has spotted. But maybe a cruiser can communicate enemies spotted to allies within 10km and their allies can shoot at enemies within that 10km radius of the cruiser.   I think it is important to have these increasing radii as larger ships have larger crews and if you keep it in line with WW2 history more channels to communicate to allies.   This would mean BBs can act more as capital ships when they push spotting for allies and when they don't push they won't be able to shoot enemies unless they are pushing or retreating with allies as they will not be close enough to allies to know where enemies are. This would force the teamwork of DDs up front with cruisers and BB behind but very close together.     But I feel this would cause allies to have to work together within their spotting/detection ranges. And focus on the right targets. It would create teamwork where there is none and reduce solo play unless in a DD for example that is designed to be a scout but not necessarily engage. Finally BB wouldn't be able to snipe from max range and would have to work with allies and tank for them. A yamato could no longer snipe from 26km if none of it's allies nearby are spotting for it and "automatically communicating" where enemies are. For a yamato to snipe from this range it would need an enemy to be within 11km of an allied battleship that can communicate enemy positions up to 15km to allies. But if there are no allies spotting it can do nothing to snipe.     Last and not least, this would also add spotting damage into the game. So DD, CA even BB pushing and communicating to allies are rewarded for doing so.   Please add any suggestions below and I'll try and add them to the OP.  Also if you think the idea is bad, say so but please suggest how you'd improve it. Thanks

 

An interesting idea. However, as I see it, the problem is that the same snipers will still snipe. The only difference will be that the team chat now will be full of messages "Spot, you ****!". And if there will still be no targets spotted, most campers will simply stay at their places blaming everyone but themselves. You can already see situations where people are sitting on those "perfect" spots and refuse to leave them no matter the combat situation.

[Ginger_General]

I think that the suggestion is overall too complicated and will likely be difficult to implement, as well as likely being quite unclear on the minimap due to every single ship's communication range being important.

 

I also feel that sniping has it's place in game, just that currently it has too large a place, and trying to lock it out of the game would likely remove too many tactical options for battleships. I'd rather see sniping discouraged, rather than being impossible.

 

You would only need to show the radius of a ship that is the primary spotter, no more.

Yes sniping would still work if someone is spotting for you and you're within their communication radius but if you're too far from your ally spotting you see nothing. To really snipe you'd need an allied BB spotting.

[Ubertron_X]

As with all things sniping should not be considered bad per se (apart from constant max range sniping that is). People just need to learn when it is ok to snipe and when they need to close.

 

Why do people snipe? People like to be in control of what is happening to them. In addition people don't like to die. And what helps you staying in control and not dying?

 

You guessed it: Range.

 

Less hits (sigma), even less hits if enemy is out of spotting or shooting range entirely. Longer flight times increase chances to actively dodge or ricochet shells. Less worrying about torps etc etc.

 

So instead of forcing people to 'brawl' people should be encouraged to do the right thing at the right time. At one time the right thing may indeed be to snipe, at another time a sacrificial suicide charge in order to disrupt the enemy cap.

[Ginger_General]

 

An interesting idea. However, as I see it, the problem is that the same snipers will still snipe. The only difference will be that the team chat now will be full of messages "Spot, you ****!". And if there will still be no targets spotted, most campers will simply stay at their places blaming everyone but themselves. You can already see situations where people are sitting on those "perfect" spots and refuse to leave them no matter the combat situation.

 

Totally understand, in that example you'd need to be near an ally to actually snipe you'd have to at least bring your ship within a certain radius of an ally or you wouldn't see a single enemy ship. 

I feel the idea will drag ships to what wargaming call "the action areas" of the maps.

[Deckeru_Maiku]

Sounds a bit like the spotting/radio mechanic that is used in WoT, right?

[RamirezKurita]

 

You would only need to show the radius of a ship that is the primary spotter, no more.

Yes sniping would still work if someone is spotting for you and you're within their communication radius but if you're too far from your ally spotting you see nothing. To really snipe you'd need an allied BB spotting.

 

​Which would then require a particularly communications-centric battleship at the optimum range between you and your target such that they can both communicate with you and spot the enemy, which in practice is a rare occurrence.

 

Also, what would the communication ranges of aircraft be?

 

Rather than limited comms ranges, I would rather see an accuracy penalty for shooting targets beyond visible range, with the penalty depending on the ship doing the spotting (with destroyers and aircraft having a large penalty, while battleships would likely have almost no penalty). It would achieve a similar effect as your suggestion, but without the hard cutoff as ships would be still able to snipe without fellow capital ships in the fray, but with reduced accuracy.

[Cpt_Andre]

How about reducing the AA on the BBs and make CV-play more popular.

Still standing sniping BBs should this way be focused by the enemy CV and the only protection will sailing side-by-side with the AA-heavy CL/CA.

 

BBs at the moment have the range to snipe, the AA to snipe alone and a DD-meta-gameplay where these DDs will be hunted and killed in the first minutes by the cruisers. There is no threat left for BBs --> They dont need teamplay and can snipe from the border line

[anonym_MfZ6T7iwWpUC]

There is a time for sniping, and a time for brawling. Just because some folks snipe all the time, there is no justification for whining about it and trying to punish them. What about DD's that invisi torp spam all the time, should we punish those? The fact you rarely hit anything consistently at max range seems to be lost on some BB players. Sometimes its worth a try, but we all know the real fighting/killing range that most action takes place at. If you can't dodge a BB who is sniping you at 20/23km, then you need to practice more.

[Tiguurrr]

I didn't quite get this post, and no matter how many times I re-read it, it just doesn't click to me.

But.. Are people seriously complaining about sniping... in a game about warships... That have artillery cannons meant for long distance bombardment? 

 

Sure, I'll stop my bombardment if you stop shooting me long enough so I can ram you instead if that makes you happier 

[anonym_MfZ6T7iwWpUC]

Rather than limited comms ranges, I would rather see an accuracy penalty for shooting targets beyond visible range, with the penalty depending on the ship doing the spotting (with destroyers and aircraft having a large penalty, while battleships would likely have almost no penalty). It would achieve a similar effect as your suggestion, but without the hard cutoff as ships would be still able to snipe without fellow capital ships in the fray, but with reduced accuracy.

 

BB's already have an accuracy penalty at sniping ranges, its called dispersion. Seriously, try playing a North Carolina for a while and try hitting anything consistently at max range and see how you do.

[loppantorkel]

I like the idea of encouraging bbs to get more involved. Too much border hugging. At the same time, I don't play bbs so I can't say whether this idea is good or not, just that I like the line of thinking.

[Pingviinii]

Id get more involved with cap zones and stuff if there werent freaking 4-6 DDs on each side every singel game.

I have tried to get closer but you only get hounded by DDs from smoke or get stealth torpedoed without knowing they were ever there.

[Cpt_Andre]

 If you can't dodge a BB who is sniping you at 20/23km, then you need to practice more.

 

This is not the problem.

 

The problem is that sniping BBs does not encourage other players to move forward (in a group).

 

The cruiser wont move forward alone, the base-rushing DDs get focused and die alone. 

Ofter some minutes impatient cruiser peek forward and get focused by the clumped enemy team (because of superiour combined fire power of BB and CA/CL) and at the end the enemy fleet will found the camping BBs and focus them.

 

If both teams move forward in a group (even if split up on different routes) they bring equal DPM and HP into the fights and the win depends on the interaction of every single player.

 

(2 CA + 2 BB) vs (2 CA + 2 BB) == equal fight, result depends on every single player

 

(2 CA + 2 BB) vs (2 CA + ( 2 borderhugging BB) --> (2 CA + 2 BB) vs (1 CA + ( 2 borderhuggingBB)  --> (2 CA + 2 BB) vs (2 borderhugging BB) --> --> (2 BB) vs (0 borderhugging BB) == win of team with combined fire power

 

[loppantorkel]

If they put hostile forts in every corner of the map to prevent bbs from wandering there..? I would very much like to see it implemented after last game...

[EsaTuunanen]

Totally understand, in that example you'd need to be near an ally to actually snipe you'd have to at least bring your ship within a certain radius of an ally or you wouldn't see a single enemy ship.

While sitting back without reasons should be discouraged slow USN BBs would probably suffer from this mechanics.

[_GrimLock__]

I started the game with dds,switched to cruisers and i always blamed myself for losing game.I hated bbs because they stood all in the back and sniped.Then i was thinking what if i play the bb like a cruiser,be agressive tank for the team etc.This little thing a agressive bb player that pushes for the team ,knocking down high risk targets has a big part on the outcome of the game.I mean why snipe?DDs no longer have 20km torps ,u can repair 90% of the fire damage u can punish real good at 14 15 km where the dispersion becomes workable.A bb pushing what sorcery is this?Most will flee 8/10 ))

No need for nerfs ,what is really needed in a change in the reward sistem.U do you part good u earn a little cash ,nice xp u sit and snipe good ,now u can return to t4 t5 to make some money to be able to repair your costs.Why lower repair costs at t9 t10?Maybe actually start doing your part and prospere even at t10.

If it was by me i will rise the repair costs at t10 by  30% if u do less than lets say a certain need of achievements or damage u have to pay extra

[Ubertron_X]

The problem is that sniping BBs does not encourage other players to move forward (in a group).

 

The problem is that when looking at individual ships there is no incentive to move forward.

 

As a CA - for example Cleveland, where the optimal fighting distance is somewhere in between 8km and 12km - you usually want to get close in order to be effective or even able to fire at all.

As a BB - for example Fuso - you usually want to stay >15km because the only return fire will then be coming from enemy BB's.

 

So we have one ship that wants to go close in order to utilize it's full potential and one ship that wants to stay away exactly because of this potential.

[LetsRockAndRoll]

I didn't quite get this post, and no matter how many times I re-read it, it just doesn't click to me.

But.. Are people seriously complaining about sniping... in a game about warships... That have artillery cannons meant for long distance bombardment? 

 

Sure, I'll stop my bombardment if you stop shooting me long enough so I can ram you instead if that makes you happier 

 

 

Long range sniping with a BB is simply not as effective as closing to a range where dispersion is manageable.

When you reach the higher tiers and lose battles simply because your BB's sat at max range sniping you will understand why it's frowned upon.

 

[_GrimLock__]

quite simple u are afraid of repair costs?Start doing u part worst case u dont lose money you brake even.But nooo u want to be american sniper hit that 1/100 shot from 20+km away .Good for me ,more cash income for the rest of the team i dont mind .U watch our dear contributors videos and say what a shot on yamato ,so many citadels i wish i can do that.Maybe u can all you have to do is push in front and get rewarded.Like the other days a Nagato player said to me stf* n00b i have 30km range.Okkkk gl hitting 30km (maybe he found pokemons there who knows))) ,he end up way back and he couldnt join the rest of the team while we cleaned up the place and had fun.FeelsBadMan 

PS:That nagato player must had found some very good pokemons near the border ))

[Ginger_General]

quite simple u are afraid of repair costs?Start doing u part worst case u dont lose money you brake even.But nooo u want to be american sniper hit that 1/100 shot from 20+km away .Good for me ,more cash income for the rest of the team i dont mind .U watch our dear contributors videos and say what a shot on yamato ,so many citadels i wish i can do that.Maybe u can all you have to do is push in front and get rewarded.Like the other days a Nagato player said to me stf* n00b i have 30km range.Okkkk gl hitting 30km (maybe he found pokemons there who knows))) ,he end up way back and he couldnt join the rest of the team while we cleaned up the place and had fun.FeelsBadMan 

PS:That nagato player must had found some very good pokemons near the border ))

 

That's exactly the sort of thing I was thinking with the idea and coming up with a way to prevent it happening but also create more of a teamwork environment.

With the community contributor videos, most of the time they're in a division rather than playing solo, so how do you create that same teamwork without people needing to be in a division.

I just had a very rare game (in a 3man division) where I asked a random fletcher to smoke me up in a cap. He did and it meant I could dish out a ton of pain. As two enemy BB pushed to the cap, I pushed out the smoke and proceeded to land 8 torps in total with my tirpitz and ended as the only one dying on my team but 4 kills and totally wrecked their team. 

But how do we create that kind of teamwork where random players get the opportunity for that teamwork.....?

Is it through reward mechanics or is it through hard spotting mechanics/shot range?

[AnotherDuck]

It's a good idea to encourage BBs to occasionally get a little closer. It's a terrible idea to punish everyone for sniping every time. It's like saying, "That long range you have? Nope, you don't get to use it, because other players whined about too much sniping."

 

It's also kind of odd to read about sniping being disliked because they don't do much, with fewer hits at that range, and the solution is to give them even lower hitrates? If it already is suboptimal, why do you want to make it even worse?

[Ginger_General]

It's a good idea to encourage BBs to occasionally get a little closer. It's a terrible idea to punish everyone for sniping every time. It's like saying, "That long range you have? Nope, you don't get to use it, because other players whined about too much sniping."

 

It's also kind of odd to read about sniping being disliked because they don't do much, with fewer hits at that range, and the solution is to give them even lower hitrates? If it already is suboptimal, why do you want to make it even worse?

 

Because the whole point of a battleship is to tank the push with the rest of your team. You make sniping worse so that you push with allied cruisers and DD to tank the damage they'd otherwise take.

Rather than end up with all your allied cruisers and DD dead with all the BB alive 15km back doing nothing and complaining the "team" that was active and tried to win, died.

I mean what is the point in 100k HP if you don't use it?

[Exocet6951]

Possible solutions?

 

They should try lowering maximum range on key ships.

The second the common baddie sees big numbers like long range and big damage is the second he thinks he's a sniper.

 

And that starts as soon as that player sees he reaches tier4/5, with the New York and Myogi/Kongo.

Tweak those, and you might just nip bad behavior in the bud.