Roma - Tier VIII Premium Italian BB suggestion

[El2aZeR]

5 minutes ago, SparvieroVV said:

He stated the ship gets deleted by TIX/TX carriers if I understood correctly. 

 

Well, as does any T8 BB when you include TBs in the strike. I'm asking for the performance of AP bombs specifically for the sake of my waifu Enterprise. :)

[SparvieroVV]

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Well, as does any T8 BB when you include TBs in the strike. I'm asking for the performance of AP bombs specifically for the sake of my waifu Enterprise. :)

[Historynerd]

Why does Flamu say that the guns are inconsistent?

I saw him having a cruiser on his bow and one on his stern, and dealing first with one and then with the other one; boom, both finished off.

You do seem to get the random trollish salvo, but overall that looks accurate to me.

 

Besides, there's no scarcity of citadels in my eyes. Were this guns "more consistent"... well, maybe I'm wrong, but the damage count was pretty impressive to me.

[Panzerblitz]

Had my first Roma kill yesterday. Pretty ship, but didn't really impress me. If those secondaries had Bismarck's range then it would be a different beast.....

 

 

 

[Exocet6951]

2 hours ago, Panzerblitz said:

Had my first Roma kill yesterday. Pretty ship, but didn't really impress me. If those secondaries had Bismarck's range then it would be a different beast.....

 

 

Flamu actually tested a secondary build on his stream.

I kid you not when I say that a DD parked 4km next to him at one point. All the secondaries opened fire, and they did absolutely nothing.
The very small caliber means that the HE pen is too low to do damage on anything but the thinnest plating on T6 ships.
In his words: "This is the least impressed I've ever been with a secondary build"


You could have 20km base range on the guns, and having a secondary build would still be a waste of points.

[Panzerblitz]

I worried about that when I saw that part of the battery are only 90mm guns.  Question is if IFHE helps enough to make it workable ?

[Historynerd]

I understand trying out the various builds, to test and see.

But criticizing it for the unimpressive/bad secondaries is kind of excessive to me.

 

I won't cite any historical reason for that, I'll just say that if people want secondaries they happily trod down to the store and buy themselves a Tirpitz.

This ship has a totally different flavour to it, just as it should have. The guns are very nice (still don't see their "inconsistency"), the armor is nice, your mobility is good, your TDS is good. If it has bad secondaries and mediocre AA I can live with it.

 

Besides, why do you need secondaries?

If you meet a DD wanting to hole you, it's a bad thing for all BB skippers. However, with that turret traverse (and those nice flat shell trajectories), do you need to have strong secondaries to counter it? The HE isn't spectacular but it should do the job well (I don't know because all the streamers apparently chose to use AP only even against destroyers, which baffles me, why could they spare the time and effort to test the various builds but not the effort to try and see how the other ammo performs?).

The GC has bad secondaries as well, but DDs don't have a field day with her, either; even though it has one more barrel and the HE is relatively more powerful. But still, the point is that with top notch turret traverse you can forgo secondaries; you have what you need to nail them.

[ShinGetsu]

2 hours ago, Historynerd said:

I understand trying out the various builds, to test and see.

But criticizing it for the unimpressive/bad secondaries is kind of excessive to me.

 

I won't cite any historical reason for that, I'll just say that if people want secondaries they happily trod down to the store and buy themselves a Tirpitz.

This ship has a totally different flavour to it, just as it should have. The guns are very nice (still don't see their "inconsistency"), the armor is nice, your mobility is good, your TDS is good. If it has bad secondaries and mediocre AA I can live with it.

 

Besides, why do you need secondaries?

If you meet a DD wanting to hole you, it's a bad thing for all BB skippers. However, with that turret traverse (and those nice flat shell trajectories), do you need to have strong secondaries to counter it? The HE isn't spectacular but it should do the job well (I don't know because all the streamers apparently chose to use AP only even against destroyers, which baffles me, why could they spare the time and effort to test the various builds but not the effort to try and see how the other ammo performs?).

The GC has bad secondaries as well, but DDs don't have a field day with her, either; even though it has one more barrel and the HE is relatively more powerful. But still, the point is that with top notch turret traverse you can forgo secondaries; you have what you need to nail them.

^ What he said.

 

I really don't get that appeal for strong secondaries battleships. Why do you want strong automatic armament when you can have nice, powerful, accurate main guns ? You want the game to do the job in your place ?

[Exocet6951]

8 hours ago, Panzerblitz said:

I worried about that when I saw that part of the battery are only 90mm guns.  Question is if IFHE helps enough to make it workable ?

 

It would end up being 19.5mm of HE pen, so depending on how the game handles rounding and exact caliber of guns (it might be 90.1mm, or 89.9mm), you might be able to damage 19mm superstructures and plating.

So it might help, but you're still investing 4 points (8 if you take manual secondaries) into a skill that might only be of marginal use in 1 out of 20 battles.
And when I say marginal, I truly mean marginal. You might deal 433 damage every once in a while.

 

4 hours ago, Historynerd said:

I understand trying out the various builds, to test and see.

But criticizing it for the unimpressive/bad secondaries is kind of excessive to me.

 

I won't cite any historical reason for that, I'll just say that if people want secondaries they happily trod down to the store and buy themselves a Tirpitz.

This ship has a totally different flavour to it, just as it should have. The guns are very nice (still don't see their "inconsistency"), the armor is nice, your mobility is good, your TDS is good. If it has bad secondaries and mediocre AA I can live with it.

 

Besides, why do you need secondaries?

If you meet a DD wanting to hole you, it's a bad thing for all BB skippers. However, with that turret traverse (and those nice flat shell trajectories), do you need to have strong secondaries to counter it? The HE isn't spectacular but it should do the job well (I don't know because all the streamers apparently chose to use AP only even against destroyers, which baffles me, why could they spare the time and effort to test the various builds but not the effort to try and see how the other ammo performs?).

The GC has bad secondaries as well, but DDs don't have a field day with her, either; even though it has one more barrel and the HE is relatively more powerful. But still, the point is that with top notch turret traverse you can forgo secondaries; you have what you need to nail them.

 

Pretty much this.
The Roma clearly isn't made for any real secondary build, and expecting to make it work by pumping skills into it is the perfect way to be disappointed.
In my opinion, those 90mm guns will have one purpose: to make ambushing DDs nervous about the incoming fireworks, causing them to miss.

That's pretty much what I expect from secondaries in most cases: not relying on them to deal real damage, rather than the odd throwback to pre-dreadnought era with secondaries being equally important as main guns.

I do think that the guns did have some very derpy moments on stream and video, maybe a bit more than the average T8 BB, but it's still well within norms.
The ship is basically what people wanted and expected: a regular, non gimmicky ship with comfortable attributes and guns that hit hard.

Personnally I would have prefered less concealment for a bit more reliable accuracy though.
That's the only thing I don't like with the Roma. Too much concealment.

[SmartassNoob]

Good HE secondary guns would not be scary to DDs just for their penetrations. It's never about just that. It's that they disable modules (steering, torpedoes, ...) and set fires. This is why DDs never go near a Bismark, or Tirpitz. It is the fear of those secondary guns that keep enemy ships away from them. It doesn't matter how often the secondary guns would actually sink something, what matters is that they shoot HE to an unusual range. That would be very useful in every battle. Especially for a ship like this that's designed for close combat (concealment + turret traverse). The difference from the Bismark/Tirpitz just is that they rely on secondary duns and torpedoes to do most of their work, while the Roma will rely on concealment and main guns. Trouble is that to make maximum use of concealment, the Roma will often need to stay close to islands, which is where you have an increased chance to meet DDs. All BBs have increased effectiveness for main guns at close range, due to increased accuracy, so the only thing to keep DDs away will be your above average main turret traverse. And trust me, that will not keep DDs away. It's a close support BB, but with noting specific to fight at close range, other than good turret traverse.

 

So you need to already be a good player to make maximum use of this ship, in the sense that a good player knows how to use a BB against a DD at close range and knows how to know where to expect enemy DDs and so on. In the hands of a noob, it will likely be as mediocre as any usual BB (sniping at range and not making use of the concealment), or an easy target for DDs at close range.

 

Or at least that's my interpretation of its advantages/disadvantages. Time will tell what it will really turn into.

[SparvieroVV]

German dispersion on German battleships is offset by German secondaries. This is why people don’t like the TIX, imoo, because here the secondaries fail to offset for the giant ellipse at range. 

 

Cesare gets away with German dispersion at Tier V thanks to good turret grouping vs opposition and manueverability. Roma appears to get good scores in the videos I’ve watched. Yet once again thanks to German dispersion the ellipse past 10km leads to well spaced rounds. There is no offensive capability compensation besides the 1.9 sigma which loses its usefulness as the ellipse increases. Once again this is my opinion and I don’t claim mine is the only option. 

 

 Roma - 244m @18.1

North Carolina - 271 @ ~23km

Amagi - 227 @ ~20km

Bismarck - 273 @ ~21km

Monarch - 225 @ 18.5

Richelieu -313 @ ~23km

 

Maybe if it doesn’t mean insta-delete cruisers the dispersion could go down 10m? Interestingly on the Global wiki page the rifles for Roma are not published yet. The ship appears fine. The only things I would change if I went total fan boy mode: reduce reload on 152/55 and maybe extend range or give better sigma. Give the 90/50 0.5 km and change ship model to Vittorio Veneto. However those are all fan boy mode changes. Just go ahead and put it in the shop and call it a day. 

 

[Historynerd]

I find it somewhat similar to the Abruzzi's situation; in both cases, to have something akin to a decent firing range, you have to rely on the spotter.

I don't like it, because I hate firing with the spotter, but that's just me.

 

Anyway, I'd suggest another small buff, i.e. giving the AP 100 damage more, closer to what the shell was guesstimated to be.

But a little tweak to the AA might come in handy as well. Somebody has claimed that the 90 mm guns have some serious potential there, but I'm still waiting to hear about that. A 0.5 km range increase would be more than enough, IMHO.

 

And I still don't get why everybody on Reddit is complaining of the guns being "meh".

Maybe, with me being a low-mid Tier scrub, don't get how it is with the higher Tiers? You are supposed to stay well at the extreme of your range, if your name isn't "Bismarck" or "Tirpitz"?

If that's the case, then I can see how the limited range can hurt the Roma's concept. Somebody said that so far what killed him the most were cruiser HE; although he included the Baltimore and Des Moines', which however is kind of expected (the 381 mm has less overmatch than the obiquitous 406 mm, so a cruiser skipper knowing his stuff will be able to block you out and smother you with fires).

[SparvieroVV]

It’s group gestalt. Up until Flamu every streamer seemed to like the guns in general. Now everyone seems surprised that German dispersion is not defeated by the mythical 1.9 sigma at range leading to a slightly spread salvo pattern. Comparing this to 16” armed battleships with tight patterns does not end favorably. 

 

The 90/50 was given what appears to be middle point RoF of 15rpm. 12 being stated and 18 being what a good crew could manage. I think Phoenix found the latter number? With an excellent RPC bonus, no surprise given what the German 105mm receives a very generous bonus as well. Take into account the only aerial torpedo hit was by an Albacore pilot who suicided. Iirc, if one needs some justification. Manual AA is proposed to work well with the 90/50. I imagine the ability to get an extra tick of damage would make up for loss of raw damage numbers if the range was increased and damage rate lowered to compensate. However I really don’t see any change to AA happening. As it is watching vids the 20/37mm appear to disappear quickly. 

 

As a secondary weapon, referencing the 90/50, i watched a gentleman receive 40+ secondary ribbons amazingly quick. However these are probably all no damage and break up on impact?

 

The damage potential of the AP at range, as stated by people testing, appears to scale very badly. The round should be well capable of good penetration however it appears here is where the compressed range algorithm fails the 381/50 Palla. I would hope WG revisits HE damage. This is what Flamu hit on that I believe brought people back to reality. The base damage is around 1k less than 16” shells that dominate this tier. Without the British fire starting or German 1/4 compensation. Brits also get module damage/destruction as their identity. So if one is being super critical the Roma kind of becomes the Hipper of tier VIII battleships. Amazing at deleting broadside ships sailing unawares and meh at everything else. 

 

Personally I’m ok if the ship released as is. Gimmicks tend to swing wildly in one direction or the other as WG attempts player retention. I’d love to see 870mps and 12100 damage however it appears this will not happen. 

 

[SparvieroVV]

In regards to higher tier I recall Bismarck was asking trouble opening up beyond 15km however mine was secondary geared. The meta became amazingly passive towards the end of my Bismarck run so I grabbed the FdG. I have the accuracy mod, FCS upgrade, gun rammer and maintain the 406mm rifles. The ship lobs rotten potatoes that fall all over the place. Even at close range it is fickle and the secondaries are not well suited for secondary build. Not to mention you will just die alone trying to close the range. 

 

The true test test will be Richelieu with 23km and 300 dispersion. If this ship has tight round grouping I will ever so politely flip out. 

[Historynerd]

The AP bomb introduction means that the inherent weaker horizontal protection of the Littorio-class returns to the fore right now...

Except the magazines, even USN carriers can maul the Roma pretty badly, and of course the Graf is outwordly powerful.

 

But it's not like only the Roma suffers from that, right? All the other BBs right now are facing a new obstacle.

 

Yet, this feels like another reason to get some tweaks. Since the Roma will likely get above average deletiondamage from this mechanic, some smallish buff to AP performance and AA range would not be that insane, IMHO...

[SparvieroVV]

SPeaking of AP bombs.

 

https://clips.twitch.tv/TubularDeliciousKimchiBrainSlug?tt_medium=clips_api&tt_content=url

 

[Kirmin]

What are the chances of Roma getting released this year? slim?

[phoenix_jz]

Thanks for the Pictures!

 

Honestly, I don't know what Flamu was harping on about, he seemed to be doing one thing and reaching a different conclusion with the guns. The guns seem quite reliable, they hit hard whenever they hit... That one clip of him with the Iowa was at a bad angle, Flamu seemed to assume it was a much flatter angle than it actually was...

[SparvieroVV]

48 minutes ago, phoenix_jz said:

Thanks for the Pictures!

 

Honestly, I don't know what Flamu was harping on about, he seemed to be doing one thing and reaching a different conclusion with the guns. The guns seem quite reliable, they hit hard whenever they hit... That one clip of him with the Iowa was at a bad angle, Flamu seemed to assume it was a much flatter angle than it actually was...

 

Min the reddit thread he explains there is a wild shot chance of a citadel from that profile. 

[Verdius]

Speaking of Roma gun consistency:

 

https://clips.twitch.tv/PuzzledTamePorpoiseKappa

[RUSSIANBlAS]

2 hours ago, Verdius said:

Speaking of Roma gun consistency:

 

https://clips.twitch.tv/PuzzledTamePorpoiseKappa

 

A Hiden at close range is a tough cookie and Roma only has 15" guns. That clip is not surprising...

[SparvieroVV]

Roma has the same autobounce as everyone else, no? So anyone outside of a RNCL would have bounced in this situation?

[Historynerd]

Krupp über alles.

 

I wish LWM hurried up with her review, so I can get another opinion from someone I appreciate, that can be weighed safely.

Besides, I'm still waiting for the review of the Abruzzi...

[0ddys]

Even Montana would have struggled to do decent damage at the angle of the first shot, because he hit the area with atleast 30mm plattes which even Montana can't overmatch. The second volley on the other hand was a bit unlucky and has maybe also something to do with flat trajectory of the shells, they landed on the deck and bounced as they should. Montana with her more arcing shells would have mostlikely delt more damage.

 

It just showcases perfectly how good Hindenburgs armor is against everything up to 420mm shells if angled correct (thats the reason why in clanbattles if often tend to use HE on Hindenburg if I'm in an angle where I can't pen without issues better go for save damage and maybe even destroy the torpedotubes then do almost no damage.

[Affeks]

On 12/3/2017 at 4:50 AM, Panzerblitz said:

I worried about that when I saw that part of the battery are only 90mm guns.  Question is if IFHE helps enough to make it workable ?

with IFHE the 90mms has 19.5mm of pen.. so idk if it actually helps pen the 19mm threshold. Cause if the value round down it will not pen, but if it rounds up to 20mm then it will at least pen DD hulls and BB superstructures.

 

On the other hand though, a fatal flaw on Romas secondary loadout is that the 152mm guns shoot AP at a very slow 12 second reload. So they at least need to shoot HE if a secondary build would ever be worth it.

 

Although if the 152 shoot HE then IFHE would buff the pen from not being able to pen 25mm plating to be able to even pen 32mm.