Is WoWS going the same way as WoT?

[Dirty_Filthy_Scrublord]

I`ve noticed a not so good trend in recent months with the top tiers in WoWS, I freely admit to being a distinctly average player....however at T10 in particular and to an extent T9 I have found the gameplay to be less enjoyable to the point I don't want to play high tiers anymore. By less enjoyable I mean the damage output doesn't seem to scale the higher the tier, by that I mean even getting a broadside "padlin" from a BB at T5 doesn't mean your quitting to the harbour to select your next ship, most of the time you will get away with it.........at T10 though it`s going to happen. A Montana and especially a Yamato will do that even when angled well and long range wont help either, unless good old RNG helps you with lousy dispersion. It`s not just BB`s that make T10 not fun, destroyers stealth firing and cruisers too....it gets to the point that us average players get our arses handed to us far too easily. World of Tanks has become so bad at high tiers that many players(myself included) either don't play above T6-T7 or have uninstalled the game(I uninstalled). WG should learn from WoT mistakes and at least attempt to address it before WoWS starts down that slippery slope. After all, it`s one of the major goals to ascend to the lofty heights of T10? You get there and find its just not fun...so what else does that leave us mere mortals with? Stick to lower tiers? Defeats a major part of the game, and half a game is not going to last.

 

 

[Aotearas]

Of course a broadside paddlin' at t5 is going to bring you back to port just as easily. Go sail broadside on to a New York and see how much HP you've got left after his salvo.

 

It's just that for one, fewer people in the midtiers know how to lead correctly and secondly that battleship accuracy scales with range the higher up the tiers you go. A Yamato is only marginally more accurate at its max range than a New York is at its. One might not hit the side of barn from the inside in a New York from 15km out and can get precision strikes with the Yamato at the same range, but for the Yamato that's midrange. A New York at 8km will hit you just as easily.

 

 

One of the biggest problems of high tier gameplay is the common absence of aircraft carriers. Bow-on camping Yamato? You'd see much less of that if they'd have to watch out for Midway/Hakuryuu strikes all the time. CVs are hardcounters to the two primary issues people have with hig tier gameplay: camping BBs and invisible DDs.

WG needs to incentivice CV play again, because right now with CVs being a rarity in high tiers, the intended balance between CV-BB-CA-DD is broken without CVs.

[Namolis]

The problem with high tier games is lack of manouverability. You can look at the raw stats, they don't lie: you will have less ability to use WASD hax to protect yourself. When ships move slower (in a turn, that is), gameplay moves slower.

[Panocek]

The problem with high tier games is lack of manouverability. You can look at the raw stats, they don't lie: you will have less ability to use WASD hax to protect yourself. When ships move slower (in a turn, that is), gameplay moves slower.

 

But then you can't make Yamato turn and buzz around like a powerboat.

[_FTD_]

So are you seriously complaining that you are getting punished for playing poorly in high tiers? 

 

[Namolis]

 

But then you can't make Yamato turn and buzz around like a powerboat.

 

Of course you can. Not only because it actually did in rl (600 m turn circle), but because you give similar buffs to other classes. Which will work, and we know it will work, because the numbers you end up with have been extensively tested at lower tiers. It promotes more dynamic gameplay, because you're not "trapped" so easily by a miscalculation.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

I grinded for ages to get into the Yam and Iowa. Both are special occasion ships, I hardly play either. Lower tiers between 5 and 7 are more fun I've found personally.

[Dirty_Filthy_Scrublord]

Not complaining because of my own lack of skill just something I have seen in both WoT and now WoWS, and it is far worse in WoT. The point I was attempting to make (poorly by the looks of it) is that the tier to tier damage and penetration values do not appear to have a linear progression. By that I mean the higher tier ships seem to be overpowered( all of them). You can blame lack of skill or any of a dozen other factors you care to name, the fact remains the same.......the fun at T9-T10 just isn't there. Even streamers don't play T10 anywhere near as much as lower tiers. Why?...maybe because it isn't as much fun? Oh and if anyone here has played WoT recently....they would have an idea of what I`m talking about.

[WarburtonLee]

I`ve noticed a not so good trend in recent months with the top tiers in WoWS, I freely admit to being a distinctly average player....however at T10 in particular and to an extent T9 I have found the gameplay to be less enjoyable to the point I don't want to play high tiers anymore. By less enjoyable I mean the damage output doesn't seem to scale the higher the tier, by that I mean even getting a broadside "padlin" from a BB at T5 doesn't mean your quitting to the harbour to select your next ship, most of the time you will get away with it.........at T10 though it`s going to happen. A Montana and especially a Yamato will do that even when angled well and long range wont help either, unless good old RNG helps you with lousy dispersion. It`s not just BB`s that make T10 not fun, destroyers stealth firing and cruisers too....it gets to the point that us average players get our arses handed to us far too easily. World of Tanks has become so bad at high tiers that many players(myself included) either don't play above T6-T7 or have uninstalled the game(I uninstalled). WG should learn from WoT mistakes and at least attempt to address it before WoWS starts down that slippery slope. After all, it`s one of the major goals to ascend to the lofty heights of T10? You get there and find its just not fun...so what else does that leave us mere mortals with? Stick to lower tiers? Defeats a major part of the game, and half a game is not going to last.

 

 

 

 

I am quite the opposite. I dont like tiers below 8 at all, and im probably the only person in the world with negative winrate below tier 5, and positive above it. Lowtiers just doesnt appeal to me. Now, looking at your stats, you have several ships you do well with, like Tirpitz, Kutuzov and Iowa. When you play those, is it still not fun for you? If it isnt, stick with those you enjoy, no matter wich tier. GL HF

[Dirty_Filthy_Scrublord]

 

I am quite the opposite. I dont like tiers below 8 at all, and im probably the only person in the world with negative winrate below tier 5, and positive above it. Lowtiers just doesnt appeal to me. Now, looking at your stats, you have several ships you do well with, like Tirpitz, Kutuzov and Iowa. When you play those, is it still not fun for you? If it isnt, stick with those you enjoy, no matter wich tier. GL HF

 

If it was just about win rates or any other stat, then yes you`d be right. Don`t get me wrong, having nice stats is good...but for me anyway it`s about fun.

P.S I do like winning but I have had  some of the best games and lost, because it was fun. I keep repeating the word "fun", maybe because to me it`s important.

And I agree with you about sticking to tiers that are fun to play, but would like to have the high tier ships be fun too.

[Azalgor]

Top tiers are full of BOTs and braindead captains, who God knows how manage to survive throw the daily chores without killing themselves with a toilet seat while taking a piss, and thats what kills the high tier gameplay. It goes as a progression, the higher tier you get in the more of these you get to play with, in terms of what you say, this game is WoT, and low/mid tiers are more fun to play.

[WarburtonLee]

 

If it was just about win rates or any other stat, then yes you`d be right. Don`t get me wrong, having nice stats is good...but for me anyway it`s about fun.

P.S I do like winning but I have had  some of the best games and lost, because it was fun. I keep repeating the word "fun", maybe because to me it`s important.

And I agree with you about sticking to tiers that are fun to play, but would like to have the high tier ships be fun too.

 

Allright, final tip for maximum fun: Russian DDs

[Namolis]

Not complaining because of my own lack of skill just something I have seen in both WoT and now WoWS, and it is far worse in WoT. The point I was attempting to make (poorly by the looks of it) is that the tier to tier damage and penetration values do not appear to have a linear progression. By that I mean the higher tier ships seem to be overpowered( all of them). You can blame lack of skill or any of a dozen other factors you care to name, the fact remains the same.......the fun at T9-T10 just isn't there. Even streamers don't play T10 anywhere near as much as lower tiers. Why?...maybe because it isn't as much fun? Oh and if anyone here has played WoT recently....they would have an idea of what I`m talking about.

 

I think you are right.

 

It's a concious game design, I think; they want high tiers to play differently from low tiers. The problem is that once they made that choice, it has some really weird gameplay applications - look at the IJN DDs for instance, they are fast paced, (relatively) short ranged torp spammers at low tiers, and at T6 there is a changeover: you now get longer range torps, but MUCH longer reload times. There is a reason for this: high tier ships are easier to torp. Having long lances with the reload of a Minekaze would be completely op vs those glorified land forts. This in turn makes the progression of the IJN DDs very awkward: T6 is worse than T5 vs anything except when it's bottom tier. It's also worse than T4 except when it's bottom tier. All as a consequence of a weird game choice.

[creamgravy]

Tier 2-10 random battles are just the same, it doesn't matter if there are no carriers, lots of carriers, no DDs, lots of DDs, no cruisers, lots of cruisers, no BBs, lot's of BBs.

[beercrazy]

I too feel high tier games are not as fun as the mid tier games

one of the main reasons I feel we are not having as much fun is that we are all encouraged to fight at further and further distances apart due to all ships getting longer range and the torps being longer range

I also feel people are "scared" to take damage and will run more often than engage once they see enemy ships close on them unlike in the lower tiers where they will stand and fight

[Vanhal]

 

I am quite the opposite. I dont like tiers below 8 at all, and im probably the only person in the world with negative winrate below tier 5, and positive above it. Lowtiers just doesnt appeal to me. Now, looking at your stats, you have several ships you do well with, like Tirpitz, Kutuzov and Iowa. When you play those, is it still not fun for you? If it isnt, stick with those you enjoy, no matter wich tier. GL HF

 

Good stats are not equal with fun. I kinda often have better stats on the ships i don't like than on the ships i like.

[avenger121]

[ghostbuster_]

Top tiers are full of BOTs and braindead captains, who God knows how manage to survive throw the daily chores without killing themselves with a toilet seat while taking a piss, and thats what kills the high tier gameplay. It goes as a progression, the higher tier you get in the more of these you get to play with, in terms of what you say, this game is WoT, and low/mid tiers are more fun to play.

I met you in your hakuryu couple times and i think you are one of the last ones who can call people braindead. All of the battles i played with you, you were so hard outplayed by enemy carrier.

[ghostbuster_]

Not complaining because of my own lack of skill just something I have seen in both WoT and now WoWS, and it is far worse in WoT. The point I was attempting to make (poorly by the looks of it) is that the tier to tier damage and penetration values do not appear to have a linear progression. By that I mean the higher tier ships seem to be overpowered( all of them). You can blame lack of skill or any of a dozen other factors you care to name, the fact remains the same.......the fun at T9-T10 just isn't there. Even streamers don't play T10 anywhere near as much as lower tiers. Why?...maybe because it isn't as much fun? Oh and if anyone here has played WoT recently....they would have an idea of what I`m talking about.

Streamers do play tier 10s. At least good ones. 

 

You have to make yourself a hard target to hit to get less damage. If you sail on a straight line like a fish, you will be dead. The problem with high tiers is the players, who got tier 10 ships but who do t have any idea what to do in certain situations. I would like to have a skill limitation for top tiers. It doesnt need to be that high. At least it should eliminate yamato captains with 40k average damage.

[Dirty_Filthy_Scrublord]

Wow, so much bullshít in one single post.   There is no similarity between WoT and WoWs high tier, in fact your percieved problem is in fact non existant, the DPM/HP ration is far far far lower in WoT high tier than in low tier. At T5/6 you have crazy DPM in comparison to your HP pool, in opposite to T9/10. For example Pz4H[105 howitzer] DPM/HP ratio is 5.47 while the E100 has a ratio of 0.83. It is more the fact that you can easily seal club below T8, because most blue/unicums prefer high tier above low tier because of the not crazy DPM/HP ratio and far far better balance, O-I says hi to your T5 tank. When people write that T5/6 has better balance/gameplay than T10 they are most likel scrubs that cant handle high tier/better players. You can´t forbid players with higher skill to stick to the tiers they like. Also it is pretty much normal for every game that the avg endgame content player has higher skill than the newbie.   WoWs high tier has a serious meta problem with all the max range sniping campers, there is no way to deny this, but it there is no similarity with WoT. Also WoWs is far far far more forgiving than WoT. Even 3 Yamatos will need several minutes to kill a single well angled enemy Yamato, in WoT facing alone 3 enemy tanks means your death within the next 30-40s.   Sorry if I am abrasive, but to me your whole posts seems to be "blah blah blah I get killed when I play bad, this is unfair and not acceptable and I am offended by this".       Lol, please what, show me the ppl that stream t3/4, there are none, while you have all the OM/Fame/whatever top clan streamers playing solely high tier.

 

Think you kinda missed the point, my own personal gripe is with the lack of "fun" at high tiers. And I said "tier to tier damage and penetration do not APPEAR to have linear progression". I`m not a tank/ship stat person, I just play the game for fun....and that for me and others is what drops off the higher tier you get.

And as for streamers not playing lower tier ships...Flamu....Aerroon  etc etc and don't forget Quickybaby in WOT.....don't tell me a top player like him doesn't play multiple tiers. Watching top players exclusively playing T10 is well...boring. A lot of people want to watch a good mixture of ship types and tiers...you know....for fun.

If I play bad, make mistakes and get sunk.....crap happens. Doesn`t mean I like it, but I do accept it. I may get pissed off at myself, but not the game.

My comparison between WoT and WoWS was not just about DPM/HP differences between tiers, it was also about the lack of fun for the average player....something you seem not to appreciate. At best most players will be average, and that's right...because we cant all be top.

Some enjoy high tiers, some mid tiers, some high tiers and some all tiers......the point is we play what we want because its fun.

 

 

 

 

[fnord_disc]

The lower tiers just feel more forgiving because they have more bad players. The game mechanics are the same.

 

If you're a good player, you can delete bad players no matter the tier they're on.

[fnord_disc]

 "tier to tier damage and penetration do not APPEAR to have linear progression"

 

The opposite is true: damage and penetration are more deadly at the lower tiers. Some examples:

 

T5 Kongo broadside damage is 8x10200=81600

T10 Yamato broadside damage is 9x14800=133200

81600/54100=1.508 => Kongo broadside deals 151% of its own health pool as damage

133200/97200=1.370 => Yamato broadside deals 137% of its own health pool as damage

 

It's true that higher tiers tend to have slightly better penetration relative to the armor at that tier and tend to have slightly better dispersion, but since ranges are longer, this doesn't make much of a difference. In fact, when the longer ranges are taken into account, I think that penetration relative to tier is worse in T10 too.

 

Cruisers have similar HP pools relative to battleship shell damage when you compared T5 and T10. Furutaka needs about 3 citadels to die and Des Moines needs 3.5. Only Zao has very low HP. But T10 cruisers also get the self heal, so...

 

If you compare torpedo damage and HP pools, T10 is much, much lower. A Minekaze torpedo is ~14k damage and even Shima doesn't get above 23k? or something like that. But at lower tiers, nobody has torpedo protection and around two Minekaze torpedoes will sink a cruiser. Shima will not sink any cruiser with two torpedoes ever, and Shima's torpedoes reload much slower.

 

Honestly, I think it's the lower tiers that are much less forgiving. It's just that people can't play the game properly there.

[Mayv]

I enjoy high tier games more than low and mid tier games.

[orgerix]

I don't know well the high tier gameplay in WoWs, but saying that the damage scale more than HP is [edited]. See the ratio DPM/HP. A cromwell can delete a O-I in 30sec. A object need 1 min for a Maus. As said above, it is just that there is more exprience player in high tier who follow up on your mistake. I guess it is the same in WoWs. However, from what i saw, I feel it makes the battle more campy

[WarburtonLee]

Streamers do play tier 10s. At least good ones. 

 

You have to make yourself a hard target to hit to get less damage. If you sail on a straight line like a fish, you will be dead. The problem with high tiers is the players, who got tier 10 ships but who do t have any idea what to do in certain situations. I would like to have a skill limitation for top tiers. It doesnt need to be that high. At least it should eliminate yamato captains with 40k average damage.

 

If following your sugestion, i would have been out of the game. I was fooling around low-tier not knowing what i was doing, until i got the chance to get my T8 Kutuzov. That way i learned the game, simple as that. So i dont agree with that. Besides, i dont see the problem in there being a skill difference in players at high tiers aswell.