Discussion thread for "some interesting info around the world"

[Bellegar]

People complained about Deutschland and it got changed to Großer Kurfürst.

People complained about France and it got changed to Republique.

 

So while I personally don't really care about names for paper ships, the Italians have every reason to complain.

I hope they change them to something that suits the Italian ships as well as the players.

[Yedwy]

How about T10 - Caesare Borgia 

[NothingButTheRain]

3 hours ago, Bellegar said:

People complained about Deutschland and it got changed to Großer Kurfürst.

People complained about France and it got changed to Republique.

 

So while I personally don't really care about names for paper ships, the Italians have every reason to complain.

I hope they change them to something that suits the Italian ships as well as the players.

What names would the Italian wows community want to suggest Wargaming uses?

[Bellegar]

4 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

What names would the Italian wows community want to suggest Wargaming uses?

I don't know sh*t about Italian cruiser naming conventions. To me Milano sounds just as proper as Giovanni Paolo II (yes I'm exaggerating to make my point clear )

 

 

But apparently this:

 

[CptBarney]

Well stats for dem pasta ships are out.

 

https://medium.com/@devblogwows/researchable-italian-tier-i-x-cruisers-as-well-as-italian-premium-tier-v-cruiser-genova-and-629ebe245310

 

r.i.p @Historynerd seems like they don't care in general also @El2aZeR's little heart will beat with joy when he sees the god awful AA they have.

 

bloody fast ships doe, like sodding destroyers but horrible dpm at tier 8+ torps seem questionable slow as hell but will appear basically infront of your ship.

 

semi-ap will be interesting @Cagliostro_chan although you will probs just bin these ships as soon as possible lol.

 

on a more serious note im not a fan of the lackluster AA, the gun velocity is very good, but semi-ap sounds dodgy too me id rather have that and HE along with that shell if they are so adamant on the bloody thing.

 

 

[Toivia]

A lot of low tier cruisers will get absolutely obliterated by the SAP because citadels tend to be exposed at low tier and SAP will get great pen angles and for some reason even more DMG than AP. That is, unless the pen of SAP isn't much lower than AP. They did say it's better than HE of a similar caliber, but not quite what ballpark we're talking here. Is it 10% better than HE pen, double the HE pen or same as AP at a reasonable range?

[CptBarney]

14 minutes ago, Toivia said:

A lot of low tier cruisers will get absolutely obliterated by the SAP because citadels tend to be exposed at low tier and SAP will get great pen angles and for some reason even more DMG than AP. That is, unless the pen of SAP isn't much lower than AP. They did say it's better than HE of a similar caliber, but not quite what ballpark we're talking here. Is it 10% better than HE pen, double the HE pen or same as AP at a reasonable range?

I think it sits somewhere between HE and AP pen (but closer to HE pen) and has the ability to pen at greater angles i think. But can richochet like regular AP and has similar damage mechanics to HE.

 

yeah lower tiers maybe mid tiers this ammo type will shine at.

 

but higher tiers...

 

 

 

[Panocek]

17 minutes ago, Toivia said:

A lot of low tier cruisers will get absolutely obliterated by the SAP because citadels tend to be exposed at low tier and SAP will get great pen angles and for some reason even more DMG than AP. That is, unless the pen of SAP isn't much lower than AP. They did say it's better than HE of a similar caliber, but not quite what ballpark we're talking here. Is it 10% better than HE pen, double the HE pen or same as AP at a reasonable range?

I think I've saw somewhere SAP penetration within 30-50mm territory? Basically not enough to pierce citadel armor besides some very lowtier lolmobiles. That and "overpen only" against DD is sketchy to say the least. Especially when you account glorious pizza powered shell elevators (20s reload)

[Toivia]

Alright, if the pen isn't stellar on SAP, then it almost prevents it from ever citadelling anything short of Emerald.

Then the high alpha kinda makes sense.

 

Yeah, I am really curious how this wll end up working at high tiers. Particularly since the ships' concealment is nowhere near the current premiums and the gun ranges aren't great either (one wonders what the exellent muzzle velocity will be for if you oly shoot sub-15kms).

Turning circles might be good for dodging, but the rudder shift isn't really.

And somehow I am not very optimistic of the italian cruiser armor scheme.

[Panocek]

26 minutes ago, Toivia said:

Alright, if the pen isn't stellar on SAP, then it almost prevents it from ever citadelling anything short of Emerald.

Then the high alpha kinda makes sense.

 

Yeah, I am really curious how this wll end up working at high tiers. Particularly since the ships' concealment is nowhere near the current premiums and the gun ranges aren't great either (one wonders what the exellent muzzle velocity will be for if you oly shoot sub-15kms).

Turning circles might be good for dodging, but the rudder shift isn't really.

And somehow I am not very optimistic of the italian cruiser armor scheme.

Emerald main belt is in line with other T5 cruisers - 76mm, what's she infamous for is her 25mm citadel roof doubling as deck. Something she was announced to have changed to 40mm to make her stop eating citadels from HE.

 

And considering 60-85 ricochet angles, you would be hard pressed to make SAP punch through Emerald deck in most combat scenarios at tier 5

[Toivia]

Well, I was counting on those deck pens. Afaik that is how I was getting citadelled most times in my Emerald and have dealt in turn with others. That 40mm could still be within reach of the SAP, assuming the hypothesized pen is correct.

 

Either way, between the SAP, moving smokes, high alpha/long reload, high speed and limited torps, I find there are too many unknowns to correctly estimate the performance of those cruisers. It's just too much of a mess right now. They might even out gimmick Royal navy lines at this point. (Italian BBs with moving smokes and "deep water radars", anyone? )

[HaachamaShipping]

Not like there aren't already cases where ships just lolcit each other through the bow at T5 with Furutaka/Exeter 203s and Omaha 10 mm plating.

[SparvieroVV]

19 minutes ago, Panocek said:

Emerald main belt is in line with other T5 cruisers - 76mm, what's she infamous for is her 25mm citadel roof doubling as deck. Something she was announced to have changed to 40mm to make her stop eating citadels from HE.

 

And considering 60-85 ricochet angles, you would be hard pressed to make SAP punch through Emerald deck in most combat scenarios at tier 5

Indeed Emerald is having some biscuit tins welded onto the citadel roof to resolve this issue. The scrap drive is working lads, keep donating to the war effort. 

[Panocek]

13 minutes ago, Toivia said:

Well, I was counting on those deck pens. Afaik that is how I was getting citadelled most times in my Emerald and have dealt in turn with others. That 40mm could still be within reach of the SAP, assuming the hypothesized pen is correct.

 

Either way, between the SAP, moving smokes, high alpha/long reload, high speed and limited torps, I find there are too many unknowns to correctly estimate the performance of those cruisers. It's just too much of a mess right now. They might even out gimmick Royal navy lines at this point. (Italian BBs with moving smokes and "deep water radars", anyone? )

inb4 consumable pizza delivery system, healing ship and anyone around for 5% hp

[Chaos_Umbra]

The ships are supposed to be hit and run ships but don't have Hydro and have no ammo effective of dealing with DDs, which will also be ineffective against BBs and angled cruisers so the only thing theses ships can do is sneak in close and get 1 good AP salvo from up close on a broadside cruiser, outside of that they can't really deal damage except with a lucky torp... Give them Hydro and Def AA back and replace the SAP with HE then they should work in their intended role... too many gimmicks all at once will just make them terrible to play as they are so gimmick-ed into 1 role that they just won't be played sort of like how useless an Assashio is in a game with only 1 BB... though that rarely happens but it is basically the same thing.

 

Or maybe change the SAP so that it does normal pen Damage to DDs like RN AP does, cause at the moment DDs, BBs and CVs will hard-counter these ships hard.

[Toivia]

Asking for Defensive Fire is kinda pointless. It does nothing to protect against planes, really. Either you have enough AA without it or you don't even with it active.

 

But if these cruisers are supposed to sneak in close to administer a nice salvo and get out*, they would definitely use hydro.

 

*I'm not quite sure they're suited for that at all, though. For one their concealment is not great, for two the moving smoke doesn't last long enough for "attack&run" shenanigans and for three, they don't have any sort of close range devastating torps either.

[Captn_Crap]

40 minutes ago, Toivia said:

*I'm not quite sure they're suited for that at all, though. For one their concealment is not great, for two the moving smoke doesn't last long enough for "attack&run" shenanigans and for three, they don't have any sort of close range devastating torps either.

Don't forget the awful smoke firing penalty. 

[Toivia]

Yeah, that too. It's related to the concealment in general. (Same reason why Neptune has such issues with smoke firing while Mino or Edin don't.)

 

Technically, the smoke firing penalty is not an issue as an italian cruiser closes in with the moving smoke (because it waits for the right moment to shoot a broadside), but it would wholly screw up the retreat.

[HaachamaShipping]

16 hours ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

The ships are supposed to be hit and run ships but don't have Hydro and have no ammo effective of dealing with DDs, which will also be ineffective against BBs and angled cruisers so the only thing theses ships can do is sneak in close and get 1 good AP salvo from up close on a broadside cruiser, outside of that they can't really deal damage except with a lucky torp... Give them Hydro and Def AA back and replace the SAP with HE then they should work in their intended role... too many gimmicks all at once will just make them terrible to play as they are so gimmick-ed into 1 role that they just won't be played sort of like how useless an Assashio is in a game with only 1 BB... though that rarely happens but it is basically the same thing.

 

Or maybe change the SAP so that it does normal pen Damage to DDs like RN AP does, cause at the moment DDs, BBs and CVs will hard-counter these ships hard.

Issue with that is the damage on the shells and ricochet angles. Currently, the shells do a lulzy amount of damage to enemy DDs. But they will not ricochet often with pens possible up to 85° (or even if it hits at a 5° angle, there still is a potential for a pen). If you combine that with the alpha, these cruisers will 1-2 shot most destroyers. High tier 203 mm SAP is 5.2k alpha, compared to Yoshino HE at 5.1k (which is improved damage 305 mm HE, mind you). What the ships would need is less extreme shell options.

[Chaos_Umbra]

6 hours ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

Issue with that is the damage on the shells and ricochet angles. Currently, the shells do a lulzy amount of damage to enemy DDs. But they will not ricochet often with pens possible up to 85° (or even if it hits at a 5° angle, there still is a potential for a pen). If you combine that with the alpha, these cruisers will 1-2 shot most destroyers. High tier 203 mm SAP is 5.2k alpha, compared to Yoshino HE at 5.1k (which is improved damage 305 mm HE, mind you). What the ships would need is less extreme shell options.

Yeah the maximum damage is higher but with HE you will get pens which it 33% of the Max damage, where as the SAP shells are capped at only ever doing 10% of Maximum damage when hitting DDs, thus 1 Yoshino shell will do 1,683 damage per hit and 1 203mm SAP will do only 520 damage when it pens cause it can still ricochet thus if the DD is bow on your damage will be much less. The difference with the RN AP is that the short fuse means it detonates with in the ship doing normal pen damage as there is no modifier, if WG remove the modifier then yes the SAP will do more damage than Yoshino HE, however bear in mind the 20 second reload and potentially missing which would still make rapid firing ships so much better against DDs.

[Yedwy]

But HE is also more prone to saturation

[Chaos_Umbra]

9 minutes ago, Yedwy said:

But HE is also more prone to saturation

True but even with saturation halving the damage the Yoshino HE shell would still do more damage and it cannot ricochet unlike SAP which will do on tier 8-10 DDs.

[HaachamaShipping]

58 minutes ago, Chaos_Umbra said:

Yeah the maximum damage is higher but with HE you will get pens which it 33% of the Max damage, where as the SAP shells are capped at only ever doing 10% of Maximum damage when hitting DDs, thus 1 Yoshino shell will do 1,683 damage per hit and 1 203mm SAP will do only 520 damage when it pens cause it can still ricochet thus if the DD is bow on your damage will be much less. The difference with the RN AP is that the short fuse means it detonates with in the ship doing normal pen damage as there is no modifier, if WG remove the modifier then yes the SAP will do more damage than Yoshino HE, however bear in mind the 20 second reload and potentially missing which would still make rapid firing ships so much better against DDs.

Yoshino fires 9 shells, Venezia (formerly fires 15. A Milano deals over 20k in normal pens per salvo if all shells connect, which they won't, but how often do DDs still have like 24k hp still? It's not brokenly OP, but certainly would be troubling. Which is why i'm just not sold on the whole idea of 20s reload, tons of damage, tons of restrictions.

[SparvieroVV]

9 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

Yoshino fires 9 shells, Venezia (formerly fires 15. A Milano deals over 20k in normal pens per salvo if all shells connect, which they won't, but how often do DDs still have like 24k hp still? It's not brokenly OP, but certainly would be troubling. Which is why i'm just not sold on the whole idea of 20s reload, tons of damage, tons of restrictions.

When are you actually going to be showing enough broadside to fire all 15 rifles? Venezia sacrifices a lot of sustained DPM for a possible large alpha strike.

[Chaos_Umbra]

23 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

Yoshino fires 9 shells, Venezia (formerly fires 15. A Milano deals over 20k in normal pens per salvo if all shells connect, which they won't, but how often do DDs still have like 24k hp still? It's not brokenly OP, but certainly would be troubling. Which is why i'm just not sold on the whole idea of 20s reload, tons of damage, tons of restrictions.

I have worked out the DPS values for both... and well it doesn't look very good, also where do you get your 20k salvo from cause each shell on a DD only does 520 damage making it 7,800 per full salvo max.

 

So the Italian T10 has a 20 second reload base and the Yoshino a 18.5 second reload, next the Italian fires 15 shells to the Yoshino's 9 so when this is taken into account you get a DPS of 390 for the Italian and 819 for the Yoshino which is more than double so even if we include hull saturation into the equation you still end up with the Yoshino doing 409 DPS which is still higher. This is all assuming that all shells land, however do note that SAP can Ricochet and 203mm shells do not overmatch 19mm of armour which all tier 8-10 DDs have so it can be mitigated by going bow in, then there is also the lack of fires and the fact that unless the SAP shell hits a module then it can't knock them out as there is no blast radius so you are less likely to knock out a DDs weapons, engine or rudder.

 

I also calculated it for the current in game Italian cruisers, so for the Abruzzi you get a HE DPS of 924, and even the highly regarded for being bad Duca D'Aosta has a 739 HE DPS...

 

Now you see how bad they are against DDs considering these cruisers are meant to use smoke and don't have hydro either?

 

Edit: To have the Venezia to equal the Yoshino DPS against DDs it would need over 10,700 Maximum Alpha damage on those SAP shells... which is more than double what they currently do...