Discussion thread for "some interesting info around the world"

[thiextar]

"10% ap limit applied"(check the interesting info around the world thread)

 

What does that even mean?

[Aotearas]

16 minutes ago, fumtu said:

• Neustrashimy: become "specialUnsellable", 19000Gold (this should be Steel I guess). should be available soon.

 

Odd pricing if that really translates 1:1 into Steel, because that would make the N-DD a whopping 36% more expensive than the Black.

 

Now, I don't have any firsthand experience with the Black and obviously I don't have any on the N-DD, but just from what I can gleam from having faced the Black in battles and the various CC commentaries on both ships the N-DD does markedly not appear to be that much more powerful to justify such a steep pricing increase.

 

1 minute ago, thiextar said:

"10% ap limit applied"(check the interesting info around the world thread)

 

What does that even mean?

That those DDs only take 10% of maximum large caliber AP damage same as other regular DDs (they could take regular full pens in their previous test iteration).

[ColonelPete]

Just now, thiextar said:

"10% ap limit applied"(check the interesting info around the world thread)

 

What does that even mean?

I assume that they get only overpen damage from AP of a certain caliber (10%).

[DFens_666]

4 minutes ago, thiextar said:

"10% ap limit applied"(check the interesting info around the world thread)

 

What does that even mean?

 

Previously, they received full BB AP penetration damage, now its like all DDs except Khaba and Harugumo.

[NothingButTheRain]

16 hours ago, Toivia said:

Right here:

While obviously I never interpreted the table presented "as evidence that Conqueror is indeed vastly OP". See more below where you again reach for the "OP" term.

This is what you said

On 4/11/2019 at 4:55 PM, Toivia said:

Oh my oh my, NothingButTheRain posts a table that actually misproves his thesis that Conqueror is average (at best). Even for the better players that the table represents, Conqueror is the best in damage and k/d, second best in WR (no, I don't think counting Bourgogne is fair, even assuming it is not OP, very few players have it with overall few battles played, it's like comparing Stalingrad with other T10 cruisers or Kron/Alaska with other T9 - the stats are just wildly different).

You basically interpreted this data as evidence that Conqueror is OP. It's kinda hard to interpret this as "Conqueror is UP" so I don't see how anyone could interpret this as agreeing with me that Conqueror is actually more average.

And you also said this initially:

On 4/10/2019 at 10:59 PM, Toivia said:

I'm wondering maybe they want to get us thinking: "Actually, the good old Conq is fine compared to this OP crap".

It's really kinda clear what you are implying with this (and I mean the old one, as that's what you are referring to here).

 

Now you're pretending I was the first one to bring this up, which really isn't the case.

 

I didn't read the rest of what you said as it seems kinda pointless if you already havea  hard time understanding this bit and because I can't really be bothered explaining other stuff as long as this idea doesn't click with you. I'm not here to teach you nor to enlighten you you know. 

[NothingButTheRain]

8 hours ago, Aotearas said:

 

Odd pricing if that really translates 1:1 into Steel, because that would make the N-DD a whopping 36% more expensive than the Black.

 

Now, I don't have any firsthand experience with the Black and obviously I don't have any on the N-DD, but just from what I can gleam from having faced the Black in battles and the various CC commentaries on both ships the N-DD does markedly not appear to be that much more powerful to justify such a steep pricing increase.

 

That those DDs only take 10% of maximum large caliber AP damage same as other regular DDs (they could take regular full pens in their previous test iteration).

I've hardly played the Fletcher so I can't compare it with Black, but from the couple battles I did play with Black and from some research, Black is not OP.

I don't know how good Neustrashimy is and how doubloons compare to steel or coal. Neustrashimy did seem to be reasonably good (but of course we both know how easy this is to change for ships that are still WIP).

[mariouus]

5 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

Now you're pretending I was the first one to bring this up, which really isn't the case.

 

Hmm.... Conqueror is the most dumbed-down product WG have ever produced. It is just a massive combination of dumbed-down features, that should have never existed. 

 

Rather than tweaking it, WG should just re-work it- there is no need for super-heal at all.

[NothingButTheRain]

10 minutes ago, mariouus said:

Hmm.... Conqueror is the most dumbed-down product WG have ever produced.

Spoiler

 

Quote

 It is just a massive combination of dumbed-down features, that should have never existed. 

I don't agree with your wording, but lets disregard this subjective aspect for a moment.

 

Ok, so after having disregarded the subjective aspect of it, my question would be "So what?"

Quote

Rather than tweaking it, WG should just re-work it- there is no need for super-heal at all.

That would be a straight up nerf and Conqueror is already not OP.

 

Now I will state that personally I prefer WG make different tech tree lines more unique in a way.

So what that it has a superheal? Mino's got a superheal and I don't hear anyone b**ching about that ship 

We both know you are not against the superheal. It's also not about it -needing- a superheal. It's the national flavor of the RN BBs.

 

And changing more lines to me more alike and more like just cloned with different names, Wargaming has already stated that this would help at nothing except pose a different problem sooner: That they will at some time run out of new mechanics in the game and that they were worried about this causing game development to start to stagnate.

 

I vote to let it keep the superheal and the superior HE. It's what makes this line unique. if anyone doesn't like this, there are 5 other tech trees to grind through that do what you want.

 

Same thing with any tech tree line. Not liking torp boats? Then don't play them! There's ample choice for gunboats so why come to the forums and demand WG change the SHima line into yet another gunboat line? It's bad for the game.

[Toivia]

21 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

This is what you said

You basically interpreted this data as evidence that Conqueror is OP. It's kinda hard to interpret this as "Conqueror is UP" so I don't see how anyone could interpret this as agreeing with me that Conqueror is actually more average.

And you also said this initially:

It's really kinda clear what you are implying with this (and I mean the old one, as that's what you are referring to here).

Well it seems I've finally discovered how your special brain works. Clearly something is either average, OP or UP.  Sigh...

 

Let me explain: OP is something vastly overperforming. That is to be avoided (Belfast and the likes). Then we get in the "fine" territory: Something is among the better ships, then the average, then the below average. And then we get UP ships. Those are also to be avoided (old T6 Mutsuki comes to mind, possiby other IJN DDs - but usually these ships tend to get buffed sooner or later).

 

Conqueror, based on the good old table you posted, Conq is in the "fine" territory statwise. Specifically the "among the better". Meaning it can take some nerfs and still be fine. Citadel raising being one such perfect nerf that stops making Conqueror being as much braindead as it is to play while barely affecting good play.

 

29 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

And you also said this initially:

Quote

I'm wondering maybe they want to get us thinking: "Actually, the good old Conq is fine compared to this OP crap".

It's really kinda clear what you are implying with this (and I mean the old one, as that's what you are referring to here).

 

Now you're pretending I was the first one to bring this up, which really isn't the case.

What? I'm literally saying the new version is OP and that the old one is fine compared to it. Which is sadly the case. In that way I guess mission accomplished for WG, they may finally have achieved something: "Actually, the good old Conq is fine compared to this OP crap".

 

31 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

I didn't read the rest of what you said as it seems kinda pointless if you already havea  hard time understanding this bit and because I can't really be bothered explaining other stuff as long as this idea doesn't click with you. I'm not here to teach you nor to enlighten you you know. 

I, on the other hand, have discovered this unreal benefactor streak in me so I will keep throwing information at you in vain hopes of ever achieving you learning. Though I understand more and more why you are so lost in the debate when you keep misunderstaning and twisting the simplest of statements.

[mariouus]

5 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

That would be a straight up nerf and Conqueror is already not OP.

There are ships with similar armor layout, but no super-heal, doing fine.

 

5 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

I don't agree with your wording, but lets disregard this subjective aspect for a moment.

 

Ok, so after having disregarded the subjective aspect of it, my question would be "So what?"

The thing is, Conqueror is just so dumbed-down that it has fully fixed and predictable performance. I agree it is not OP, but it is not Fine either, nor is it UP.  It is just stupid.

 

It will provide "Fine" results do everybody, regardeless of skill level. Because of those propeties, you gain very little of being "Good" and loose propotionally very  little of being Bad.

 

It is an pinnacle of dumbing-down.

 

That is why I am saying, it needs a full re-work.

 

 

[ghostbuster_]

On 4/12/2019 at 2:17 AM, NothingButTheRain said:

yes it does have any effect on a player who plays cong in a right way

no it doesnt. if you have been actively angling with conq, nothing will change for you. but if you are one of the monq conq players, yeah.... a lot will change for you.

[NothingButTheRain]

On 4/12/2019 at 10:06 PM, mariouus said:

There are ships with similar armor layout, but no super-heal, doing fine.

 

The thing is, Conqueror is just so dumbed-down that it has fully fixed and predictable performance. I agree it is not OP, but it is not Fine either, nor is it UP.  It is just stupid.

 

It will provide "Fine" results do everybody, regardeless of skill level. Because of those propeties, you gain very little of being "Good" and loose propotionally very  little of being Bad.

 

It is an pinnacle of dumbing-down.

 

That is why I am saying, it needs a full re-work.

Your explanation as to the why and how of your opinion is nothing short of superlative.

 

You want the pinnacle of dumbed down? Then look at what happened to DD citadels. Heck, they don't even take full pen damage anymore and the result is that half the DDs cross the entire map in a double carrier game in search of the enemy carrier. Oh sure, these players need all the help that they deserve. There's your superlative, you'd better start critisizing this as this is not just a single ship. Oh no, it's an entire class dumbed down through the floor! Now go forth and start critisizing the biggest dumbing down of any class we've had.

 

Go on...

 

There ya go....superlatives 

 

But there's another detail that is important to your plight, namely this here:

Quote

Because of those propeties, you gain very little of being "Good" and loose propotionally very  little of being Bad.

You want the entire ship changed because it's easy on the beginner and hard on the pro and you personally don't like that? Well, then this ship is just not for you.

People should stop demanding change to any choices they don't like. This game thrives on choices and diversity and there's plenty for everyone (provided people like you don't get their way that is).

 

You don't like the ship? Then don't play it. It's not hard 

[NothingButTheRain]

3 hours ago, ghostbuster_ said:

no it doesnt. if you have been actively angling with conq, nothing will change for you. but if you are one of the monq conq players, yeah.... a lot will change for you.

Yes. It really does.

 

Maybe you are not a native English speaker or something. But if you were to change a dice and have the "1" nerfed into a "0", it will still be a nerf regardless of how often you throw a "6". It's a nerf regardless of how good you throw the dice.

[LastButterfly]

43 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

But if you were to change a dice and have the "1" nerfed into a "0", it will still be a nerf regardless of how often you throw a "6". It's a nerf regardless of how good you throw the dice.

 

If the dice is rigged to never land on 1 in the first place than it doesn't matter if 1 is modified in any way, because the dice's performances themselves will stay the exact same.

In other words, I get where you're coming from but your comparison is flawed.

[NothingButTheRain]

4 minutes ago, LastButterfly said:

 

If the dice is rigged to never land on 1 in the first place than it doesn't matter if 1 is modified in any way, because the dice's performances themselves will stay the exact same.

In other words, I get where you're coming from but your comparison is flawed.

It will always land on the "1" sooner or later. And even a single one by sheer bad luck will mean the nerf hits you as well and that's a fact.

 

It is not flawed. And in the end, the point is that if you nerf one aspect of a ship, it is a nerf regardless of how you look at it (or in the case of this Ghost guy, what lame excuses he wants to come up with).

[HaachamaShipping]

11 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

It will always land on the "1" sooner or later. And even a single one by sheer bad luck will mean the nerf hits you as well and that's a fact.

 

It is not flawed. And in the end, the point is that if you nerf one aspect of a ship, it is a nerf regardless of how you look at it (or in the case of this Ghost guy, what lame excuses he wants to come up with).

If you play your ship as if its a random dice that lands on whichever side regardless of what you do, I think that's a bit... Naturally, if you actually know how to play your ship to minimise worst outcome and maximise best outcome, then your comparison is a bit...

[NothingButTheRain]

6 minutes ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

If you play your ship as if its a random dice that lands on whichever side regardless of what you do, I think that's a bit... Naturally, if you actually know how to play your ship to minimise worst outcome and maximise best outcome, then your comparison is a bit...

The pojnt is that you can minimise risks all you want, there's going to be a mistake or mishap sooner or later and technically, even if this nerf bites you only once, it will still be a nerf that hit you (both literally and proverbially).

 

This Ghost dude said that there would never be a negative effect for this ship when player right and thus it could not be a nerf and I simply untwisted his logic into what it really means: That a nerf without any kind of buff is still a nerf regardless of how puny the chance that the nerf will affect you.

[HaachamaShipping]

Just now, NothingButTheRain said:

The pojnt is that you can minimise risks all you want, there's going to be a mistake or mishap sooner or later and technically, even if this nerf bites you only once, it will still be a nerf that hit you (both literally and proverbially).

 

This Ghost dude said that there would never be a negative effect for this ship when player right and thus it could not be a nerf and I simply untwisted his logic into what it really means: That a nerf without any kind of buff is still a nerf regardless of how puny the chance that the nerf will affect you.

Likening it to something that purely is up to chance is however a flawed comparison then.

[Aotearas]

1 hour ago, NothingButTheRain said:

The pojnt is that you can minimise risks all you want, there's going to be a mistake or mishap sooner or later and technically, even if this nerf bites you only once, it will still be a nerf that hit you (both literally and proverbially).

 

This Ghost dude said that there would never be a negative effect for this ship when player right and thus it could not be a nerf and I simply untwisted his logic into what it really means: That a nerf without any kind of buff is still a nerf regardless of how puny the chance that the nerf will affect you.

And as I've told you numerous times before in either this thread or another: that rare occasion of you getting a freak citadel despite doing everything right will be more than compensated for by the fact the heal gets considerably more powerful and your ability to use the more powerful heal with much greater quantity than you'd ever catch an unlucky citadel if you simply angle correctly.

 

So who the f*ck cares if you may once in a blue moon catch a citadel if on average you just run around with considerably higher effective HP thanks to the heal buff.

 

 

You're so hung up on the technicality of the term "nerf" that you ignore the purpose and functionality behind it completely simply because it exists. If you're that adamant about no one nerfing your precious toys you can just drop the pretenses of your already hilariously uncontextual argumentation.

 

 

[ghostbuster_]

3 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

Yes. It really does.

 

Maybe you are not a native English speaker or something. But if you were to change a dice and have the "1" nerfed into a "0", it will still be a nerf regardless of how often you throw a "6". It's a nerf regardless of how good you throw the dice.

mindblowing....  

 

2 hours ago, Cagliostro_chan said:

If you play your ship as if its a random dice that lands on whichever side regardless of what you do, I think that's a bit... 

tarded?  totally agree.

[Exocet6951]

3 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

at a nerf without any kind of buff is still a nerf regardless of how puny the chance that the nerf will affect you.

 

Have you completely forgotten about the fact that the heal has been buffed and that you can now heal a staggering 85% of regular damage that comes your way, on top of the 100% of light damage, meaning that you can heal practically all HE and fires coming your way, with good dcp and repair management. 

 

All that with still autobounce 32mm plating for practically all AP if used correctly, and a thick belt that protects you from mid to long range BB hits even if not optimally angled. 

 

 

So yeah, you ever so slightly forget to mention that when you keep mentioning that Conqueror is being nerfed. 

[fumtu]

3 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

That a nerf without any kind of buff is still a nerf regardless of how puny the chance that the nerf will affect you.

 

16 minutes ago, Exocet6951 said:

Have you completely forgotten about the fact that the heal has been buffed and that you can now heal a staggering 85% of regular damage that comes your way, on top of the 100% of light damage, meaning that you can heal practically all HE and fires coming your way, with good dcp and repair management.

 

^^. Not to mention that Conq is also getting a sigma buff for 419mm guns, from 1.8 to 1.9. and that its citadel's upper deck armor is increased from 12 mm to 32 mm.

[mariouus]

8 hours ago, NothingButTheRain said:

You want the entire ship changed because it's easy on the beginner and hard on the pro and you personally don't like that? Well, then this ship is just not for you.

People should stop demanding change to any choices they don't like. This game thrives on choices and diversity and there's plenty for everyone (provided people like you don't get their way that is).

 

You don't like the ship? Then don't play it. It's not hard 

In player vs player battle it is non-sense. It is not diversity. It is just platantly unfair for players playing other ships.

[Exocet6951]

47 minutes ago, mariouus said:

In player vs player battle it is non-sense. It is not diversity. It is just platantly unfair for players playing other ships.

 

It's also hilarious when you factor in CVs and the rather selective nature of that argument :^) 

[Yedwy]

On 4/12/2019 at 1:12 PM, Aotearas said:

 

Odd pricing if that really translates 1:1 into Steel, because that would make the N-DD a whopping 36% more expensive than the Black.

 

Now, I don't have any firsthand experience with the Black and obviously I don't have any on the N-DD, but just from what I can gleam from having faced the Black in battles and the various CC commentaries on both ships the N-DD does markedly not appear to be that much more powerful to justify such a steep pricing increase.

Agreed, got Black yesterday and its really nice to play (ok i always liked us dds and esp fletchers) and it sort of is worth the 14k steel i shelled out for it but 19k steel for what is basically t9 ogneivoy???

I mean ok it has slighty better guns and torps and that heal (if its still a thing) but grozovoi it aint and never will be and any Fletcher or Jutland should rip him to pieces in a knifefight with better reload and a gun (or two) more to boot heal or no heal