Discussion thread for "some interesting info around the world"

[Gojuadorai]

1 hour ago, fallenkezef said:

So Conq has 4 2x457 turrets nobody uses. WG creates a BB with only 3 of them and expects people to go for it?

 

well bear in mind  that the RN Ap has some horrible stat combination as well as the opportunity cost of shooting it is verry high cause of the insane HE  which  leads to people using the 12x gun setup.

 

also if i read the stats correctly the ship will use super heavy shells like the USN heavy cruisers.
on the one hand this will probably give it NCA  style lazy arcs (which you can get used too love my NCA)

on the other hand youll penetrate the crap out of all BB decks at TX

[Mr_Tayto]

Re: the secondaries? Does that mean she might have the same boosted range and utility as Massa? i.e. Will she be a higher tier secondary monster like Massa?

 

If that's the case, she just went from Meh to Must Buy, regardless of her main battery.

[Admiral_H_Nelson]

2 hours ago, fumtu said:

 

Why not if they make it work. Let's first see how Georgia will look in the end before judge her. Sure now she doesn't look particularly attractive but I guess there would be a lot of changes before release.

Of course.

Why, the Balancing Team have probably not even had a go at it with their sledgehammers yet!"

[fumtu]

28 minutes ago, Admiral_H_Nelson said:

Of course.

Why, the Balancing Team have probably not even had a go at it with their sledgehammers yet!"

 

Well all T9/T10 premium ships are good, some were better then others. I believe that George in the end will be good too.

 

1 hour ago, Mr_Tayto said:

Re: the secondaries? Does that mean she might have the same boosted range and utility as Massa? i.e. Will she be a higher tier secondary monster like Massa?

 

No it doesn't. Georgia secondaries have better dispersion then Massa, but while Massa secondaries have 7.5km range and 4sec reload time, Georgia ones only have 6km range and 6sec reload time.

[Mr_Tayto]

Just now, fumtu said:

No it doesn't. Georgia secondaries have better dispersion then Massa, but while Massa secondaries have 7.5km range and 4sec reload time, Georgia ones only have 6km range and 6sec reload time.

Back to 'Meh' then :(

[HaachamaShipping]

27 minutes ago, fumtu said:

No it doesn't. Georgia secondaries have better dispersion then Massa, but while Massa secondaries have 7.5km range and 4sec reload time, Georgia ones only have 6km range and 6sec reload time.

Basically, enjoy your guaranteed close range shatters on belt.

[Affeks]

54 minutes ago, Seiranko said:

Basically, enjoy your guaranteed close range shatters on belt.

Thats just BBs though, and 127mm secondaries arent good anti BB secondaries in high tiers (exception being GK ofc).

 

127mm secondaries is mostly good vs DDs (which have no belt that shatters) and if you have IFHE aganst cruisers, which mostly get one shot if they have a sizable belt and shows broadside, otherwise youll hit the 25-27mm bow/stern and deal considerable damage.

 

1 hour ago, Mr_Tayto said:

Back to 'Meh' then :(

Yep. Really hoping they buff certain aspects of it. She really has all the premise to be fun ship/twist on Iowa. Great speed, better turning circle, better rudder and different guns. If secondaries gets a range and/or reload buff Georgia would be able to play aggressively on flanks with backup against torpedo rushes.

 

Right now Georgia has ~23% worse DPM and alpha with AP. If main gun reload gets buffed to 26-28sec, she would only have about 11% worse DPM which is much more manageable.

[HaachamaShipping]

8 minutes ago, Affeks said:

Thats just BBs though, and 127mm secondaries arent good anti BB secondaries in high tiers (exception being GK ofc).

Except that if they wouldn't be pinpoint accuracy, they'd stray far enough to hit the superstructure and potentially set the ship ablaze in more than one location. There's "not good vs BBs" and there's "utterly useless vs BBs".

[Affeks]

Just now, Seiranko said:

Except that if they wouldn't be pinpoint accuracy, they'd stray far enough to hit the superstructure and potentially set the ship ablaze in more than one location. There's "not good vs BBs" and there's "utterly useless vs BBs".

Id say thats tradeoff Im willing to take any day though. Deal decisive damage to DDs on longer ranges or set the odd fire on a BB youre brawling already anyway...

[HaachamaShipping]

1 minute ago, Affeks said:

Id say thats tradeoff Im willing to take any day though. Deal decisive damage to DDs on longer ranges or set the odd fire on a BB youre brawling already anyway...

"longer ranges". 6 km base range. 6s reload. You can get up to 9.1 km range out of this and at 9 km, you still get Atlanta arcs. That's not hardly going to be "decisive damage" against any DD that knows how to use A and D keys. The main draw of the improved secondary accuracy to me would be that you don't invest anything in secondaries and just let them shred any DD that rushes you at 6 km, as your main guns are obviously not good for that job.

[Affeks]

Just now, Seiranko said:

"longer ranges". 6 km base range. 6s reload. You can get up to 9.1 km range out of this and at 9 km, you still get Atlanta arcs. That's not hardly going to be "decisive damage" against any DD that knows how to use A and D keys. The main draw of the improved secondary accuracy to me would be that you don't invest anything in secondaries and just let them shred any DD that rushes you at 6 km, as your main guns are obviously not good for that job.

Thats what I mean by longer ranges though. With or without further buffs or skills the improved accuracy will make the secondaries effective at "longer ranges". 

 

At 8km+ the arcs will be bad against DDs sure, but at that point the arcs will make sure it hits BB superstructures anyhow. 

 

Just dont forget bro, that a secondary hit on a DD is worth a lot more than hits to a BB. Also dont forget I never said that Georgias current secondaries are "good", that was never the argument here, just responding to your weird secondary accuracy = bad sentiment.

[HaachamaShipping]

10 hours ago, Affeks said:

Thats what I mean by longer ranges though. With or without further buffs or skills the improved accuracy will make the secondaries effective at "longer ranges". 

 

At 8km+ the arcs will be bad against DDs sure, but at that point the arcs will make sure it hits BB superstructures anyhow. 

 

Just dont forget bro, that a secondary hit on a DD is worth a lot more than hits to a BB. Also dont forget I never said that Georgias current secondaries are "good", that was never the argument here, just responding to your weird secondary accuracy = bad sentiment.

I'm not saying secondary accuracy is bad per se. Just that with those base stats, it's the least important aspect that should have been buffed to make the secondaries worth a damn.

[Affeks]

12 hours ago, Seiranko said:

I'm not saying secondary accuracy is bad per se. Just that with those base stats, it's the least important aspect that should have been buffed to make the secondaries worth a damn.

Yeah I agree to that 100%. The 127mm guns have a pretty bad baseline in terms on velocity, alpha and firechance. Getting RoF up is more important

[El2aZeR]

Honestly I don't know why people think secondaries are a fun mechanic. You're basically reaping potentially huge returns for doing... Nothing. Nothing at all.

Quite frankly long range accurate secondaries are a bull mechanic on par with RTS CV AP bombs or CBT Shima walls of skill. They shouldn't exist.

[Affeks]

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

Honestly I don't know why people think secondaries are a fun mechanic. You're basically reaping potentially huge returns for doing... Nothing. Nothing at all.

Quite frankly long range accurate secondaries are a bull mechanic on par with RTS CV AP bombs or CBT Shima walls of skill. They shouldn't exist.

Youre missing the build up for getting good results from secondaries.

 

To get results you need aggressive yet safe positioning. You are forced into often a very high risk high reward playstyle (which is undoubtedly fun). Often this also requires you to sacrifice options that provide safety like CE or FP, forcing you to use islands and flanks much more. Even sacrificing aiming systems mod makes long range sniping much less rewarding, forcing you closer to even get the most out of main guns. 

Good example is I tried an IFHE secondary build on Yamato after the change to HE for all large caliber secondaries. I will tell you its not recommended, but it made me play way more aggressive and gave me a new perspective on positioning with Yamato.

 

As a BB you are mostly firing AP and looking for broadsides, having that extra win condition to rely on is fun and makes for moments that otherwise never happen. After 2 years of constantly being on the lookout for gimmicky secondary builds I have enough experience to say there is more to it than just click and watch the show. 

 

I really dont understand why you think secondaries are comparable to whatever you listed. Its dodgable, its blockable with terrain and doesnt constantly and unpredictably spot DDs. 

[El2aZeR]

1 hour ago, Affeks said:

Youre missing the build up for getting good results from secondaries.

 

Oh, please. Getting close is a byproduct of generally decent positioning. With the most heavily armored and highest health pool class this is not particularly risky either. You're already getting good returns via map control and rising accuracy of your devastating main battery, I do not see why you should get bull constant auto DPS too.

 

AP bomb auto drops and Shima walls of skill are comparable in having similar effort for huge returns. Whenever I play my secondary build Bismarck I constantly have to facepalm at how easy and utterly bull it is to get amazing rewards for no effort.

[Affeks]

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Oh, please. Getting close is a byproduct of generally decent positioning.

So yes secondaries helps reward good play through good positioning. How is that an inherently bad thing? Generally when I use secondary builds bad games are worse and good games are better. The only bad thing about that is related to the skill gap topic.

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

With the most heavily armored and highest health pool class this is not particularly risky either. You're already getting good returns via map control and rising accuracy of your devastating main battery, I do not see why you should get bull constant auto DPS too.

Also the least mobile, (mostly) least stealthy and biggest target archetype. Meaning dictating engagements will always be a struggle, enemies weak to secondaries will always have the first move. Secondaries generally only deal considerable damage to bad players. Rarely do they deal decisive damage to the better end of player, it only acts as a scuffed area denial tool.

Just dont forget making one wrong move can easily get even a seasoned BB player killed. Running away is rarely an option and smoke is almost never an option.

 

1 hour ago, El2aZeR said:

AP bomb auto drops and Shima walls of skill are comparable in having similar effort for huge returns. Whenever I play my secondary build Bismarck I constantly have to facepalm at how easy and utterly bull it is to get amazing rewards for no effort.

We really cant see eye to eye on this. I cant realistically compare them considering Shima torp soups were done 5+km outside spotting and AP bombing doesnt put your CV in danger at the same time planes reposition almost instantly compared to surface ships. 

 

Its a big gap between being in no risk, to being at constant risk in the tankiest ship archetype.. believe it or not.

 

[HaachamaShipping]

2 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

Oh, please. Getting close is a byproduct of generally decent positioning. With the most heavily armored and highest health pool class this is not particularly risky either. You're already getting good returns via map control and rising accuracy of your devastating main battery, I do not see why you should get bull constant auto DPS too.

 

AP bomb auto drops and Shima walls of skill are comparable in having similar effort for huge returns. Whenever I play my secondary build Bismarck I constantly have to facepalm at how easy and utterly bull it is to get amazing rewards for no effort.

Bismarck secondaries are basically just going to farm a ton of damage if people actually are retarded enough to push into the secondary range and stay there for extented periods. Especially when uptiered. For the most part, I regard secondaries not as a damage farming tool, but most of all, as an area control tool, as it basically allows the BB to dissuade enemy ships from carelessly rushing into that secondary aura. Similarly, one could ask, what is the skill behind stuff like hydro DDs and radar ships that have to put "minimal" effort into positioning correctly to get silly results. Being near contested zones or in the caps is their job anyway, after all. Regardless of whether it needs some situational awareness to properly decide when to put your asset to use, not just yolo (I mean, yes, BBs shouldn't sit back at 20 km, but sub-11 km is starting to get rather close for T8+ and sub 8 km for T7- is not really much either. I certainly don't play my Nagato at 7 km the way I would play Gneisenau) or whether there is actual options to avoid suffering from that asset (partly more options than there is for getting counter-radared or running into Loyang hydro even). And secondary BBs are hardly anywhere near the threat to BB counters as AP DBs were to even AA cruisers like Des Moines, unless you literally rush into like sub-6 km of a BB where most secondaries can actually pen your hull.

[El2aZeR]

3 hours ago, Affeks said:

So yes secondaries helps reward good play through good positioning. How is that an inherently bad thing?

 

Because 1. you're already getting rewarded with amazing returns and 2. there is no skill involved whatsoever in secondaries killing targets (as in secondaries automatically fire at targets in range with no real player input).

 

3 hours ago, Affeks said:

Also the least mobile, (mostly) least stealthy and biggest target archetype.

 

Which matters.... how exactly?

Big target, oh no, see how much my armor and health gives a  about that.

Least mobile, that's a joke right there. BBs in high tiers and even some in mid tiers are just as fast as cruisers, meaning they switch flanks just as easily. Manueverability is either sufficient in case of roaming BBs or utterly irrelevant in case of bow camping ones. BBs are the least mobile only relatively speaking. Even the GK dodges torp spreads fired at any range beyond point blank with ease. Seriously, that ship is so ludicrously fool proof I stopped playing it after being hunted by 3 DDs and not taking a single torp. That's your benchmark for the least mobile BB right there.

Stealth is easily negated. Stealth is powerful, to be sure, but the recent revival of CVs has proven that everyone has forgotten how to play without it. I've spec'd out of CE in almost all my BBs and can get by perfectly fine. In fact I never used it in KM BBs in the first place. There are ways to force more stealthy ships into attacking you or close the distance.

 

3 hours ago, Affeks said:

Just dont forget making one wrong move can easily get even a seasoned BB player killed.

 

And that's the most hilarious joke of all. Unless you get caught broadside at close range by another BB the enemy team is gonna spend 3-5 minutes focusing you before you can even consider dying. In fact, getting caught broadside isn't even a guarantee for crippling damage for most BBs nowadays.

The amount of bull a high tier BB can survive simply by bowcamping would be hilarious if it weren't so sad.

 

3 hours ago, Affeks said:

Its a big gap between being in no risk, to being at constant risk in the tankiest ship archetype.. believe it or not.

 

Said danger can often be negligible. In fact losing most or all of your squads in a marginally successful or failed AP DB drop was much more crippling than losing a bit of healable HP. Or tying up large parts of the enemy team for hilarious amounts of time.

 

3 hours ago, Seiranko said:

Bismarck secondaries are basically just going to farm a ton of damage if people actually are retarded enough to push into the secondary range and stay there for extented periods.

 

Or I can push/defend vital spots and watch my damage counter rise as my ship takes apart defenders/attackers without any input.

Keeping distance often simply isn't an option. BBs already can exert hilarious amounts of map control, turning yourself into 11km of guaranteed nope is just straight up stupid.

 

3 hours ago, Seiranko said:

Similarly, one could ask, what is the skill behind stuff like hydro DDs and radar ships that have to put "minimal" effort into positioning correctly to get silly results.

 

Lets pick hydro DDs, aka the KM DD line because quite frankly the RN DDs aren't particularly good at using hydro offensively. How is that balanced out? By incredibly bad damage potential in a class that isn't particularly good at dealing direct damage in the first place. Secondaries get added on top of the highest theoretical and practical damage potential in the game. Are BBs at least fragile to compensate? Lol no. What about their supposed hard counters? Well, that has been "fixed" with torp nerfs/BB maneuverability buffs and the glorious CV rework.

 

As for radar, well, lets just say I opposed its introduction and asked WG to fix the reason why they introduced radar instead (aka a lack of CVs). That was... 2 years ago? Honestly I don't remember.

 

3 hours ago, Seiranko said:

And secondary BBs are hardly anywhere near the threat to BB counters as AP DBs were to even AA cruisers like Des Moines, unless you literally rush into like sub-6 km of a BB where most secondaries can actually pen your hull.

 

While true, ing over classes you're already great at ing over is hardly much better.

The most braindead class to play getting ways to farm even more braindead damage kinda strikes me as wrong. Can't aim? Dispersion has you covered. Dunno how to angle or position? Here's loads of armor and health. Got caught broadside? Take near immunity to citadels then. Still can't farm damage? Well, lets just add auto secondaries that will do it for you when you inevitably get close enough. Or thermonuclear HE shells.

 

BBs have been going downhill ever since they introduced the German ones. It's great that they're trying to revert the trend with RU BBs but it's way too late for that imo.

(And that's assuming they won't get buffed to be just as bull as most of the others.)

[Toivia]

Hmm, GK dodging torps? That's hard to imagine.

Yeah, I'm definitely on the secondary defending team here. And unless you are a Russian BB, being close doesn't really reward you with main gun functionality (only more overpens...), so yeah, good thing to reward getting close.

[El2aZeR]

5 minutes ago, fumtu said:

It's not planned to make further changes to the parameters of Graf Zeppelin, Saipan, Kaga and Enterprise. We consider their balancing finished.

 

[ilhilh]

Yea, I sold my Saipan.  Garbage.

 

Still surprised they haven't done something with the soviet turret rotation - I felt sure it was a mistake that they hadn't intended in the first place...

[Desteban]

23 minutes ago, ilhilh said:

Yea, I sold my Saipan.  Garbage.

 

Might as well do the same, had hoped there was some further balancing but in her current state I don't enjoy her one bit. 

Not sure how you are supposed to play that thing but all her armament is okayisch at best.

[kfa]

1 hour ago, Desteban said:

 

Might as well do the same, had hoped there was some further balancing but in her current state I don't enjoy her one bit. 

Not sure how you are supposed to play that thing but all her armament is okayisch at best.

Sold mine too. Its the worst from all prem CVs.

Also sold the Enterprise, it has nothing special.

 

I only kept the Kaga, for the sake of the good memories. Will be a nice port queen.

[Verblonde]

Remind me: am I correct that we have until the next patch if we want to refund CVs? So, presumably, another week or so?

 

I'm still dithering about what to keep; I'm only up to T6 on the US/IJN lines, so it's not like the refund will be epic, but I can probably find better things to do with the xp...