Discussion thread for "some interesting info around the world"

[Darth_Glorious]

 

[fumtu]

18 minutes ago, Major_Damage225 said:

Its not rashian, thats reason enough. 

Joke aside, first they uptier it (cuzz reasons™), now they just playn butcher it, i always wanted this ship ingame, one of the reasons is diving on her sistership but the way it is now, it's just a bad joke (yes i know she was strong in her first iteration at T4, but now......) 

 

I doubt WG is nerfing her just for fun. Even tho she belong to T4, she was really too strong for that tier. Even with 1.5 sigma. I don't see how they could balance her for T4 without making her unfun to play. Fact that WG is nerfing her in T5 is just showing how strong she still is. And considering all this s***show with GC I doubt WG is ready to sale another OP ship while they are talking about nerfing one that is already in game. 

 

On the other side, as VU basically don't have any AA I don't think that this is a good time to balance a ship without taking into account what impact will new CVs have on ships. I would like if she return to T4 but I doubt anybody would like her is she needs extensive nerfs to fit there.

[ColonelPete]

1 minute ago, fumtu said:

 

I doubt WG is nerfing her just for fun. Even tho she belong to T4, she was really too strong for that tier. Even with 1.5 sigma. I don't see how they could balance her for T4 without making her unfun to play. Fact that WG is nerfing her in T5 is just showing how strong she still is. And considering all this s***show with GC I doubt WG is ready to sale another OP ship while they are talking about nerfing one that is already in game. 

 

On the other side, as VU basically don't have any AA I don't think that this is a good time to balance a ship without taking into account what impact will new CVs have on ships. I would like if she return to T4 but I doubt anybody would like her is she needs extensive nerfs to fit there.

Easy, turn down the AP. At close range the 305mm have the same penetration power as 380mm, that is insane and physicly impossible.

And since her Sigma is currently at 1.8, turning it down to 1.5 could help a lot.

 

But basicly they have to find out if her offensive power is too good or her defensive.

They could reduce some of the plating thickness, take away one charge of the heal, reduce the heal,...

There are many options whithout really needing to change the ship.

[1MajorKoenig]

27 minutes ago, Affeks said:

I feel like were forgetting some ships...

 

Lazo and Wichita are the ones I can remember now, anyone else?

 

Yuudachi?

[fumtu]

10 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Yuudachi?

 

Yuudachi is not even in the testing phase

[Toivia]

Yeah, Lazo, Wichita and Alaska could long have been released and would be just fine.

Neustrashimy: Well, devs got the memo about her being steel, so she must get all the gimmicks now and must be OP enough, I guess (the fun enemy DDs will have when they spot her on low hp and will try to finish her off - only for Neustrashimy to heal back up to half hp ).

Viribus Unitis: Used to look like a fun little low tier ship, first representing an entirely new nation/empire, state... I didnt like her being pushed to T5, I like even less her weird adjustments on T5. Nerfing the armor plates so that cruiser HE can damage it more reliably would have been a fine nerf on T4, if survivability was an issue. Terrible gun handling and slow speed should be enough to wreck the attack side of things (not to mention T4 CVs could still feast on her).

Exeter: Hmm, instead of doing the sensible thing and putting her on T6, they gut the reload and remove the smoke. Fine, she still can somewhat train UK cruiser captains, unles you go for the smoke perk. And I don't see how Exeter can now be fun to play. At all.

 

Yahagi and Leone: I have no idea how those two are doing now. Is Leone playable on T6 with the buffed shell trajectory? Is Yahagi playable on T5?

[Humorpalanta]

30 minutes ago, ColonelPete said:

Easy, turn down the AP. At close range the 305mm have the same penetration power as 380mm, that is insane and physicly impossible.

And since her Sigma is currently at 1.8, turning it down to 1.5 could help a lot.

 

But basicly they have to find out if her offensive power is too good or her defensive.

They could reduce some of the plating thickness, take away one charge of the heal, reduce the heal,...

There are many options whithout really needing to change the ship.

It already doesn't have range, speed, AA... Now taking away guns... It could be a rock or a moving island in the next ST...

[ColonelPete]

There is a difference between taking away guns or making 305mm guns behave like 305mm guns and not 380mm guns.

It should be obvious that 12x380mm are a bit much for Tier IV, even Tier V.

 

And 16km range are more than enough for Tier V and even too much for Tier IV....

[HystericalAccuracy]

5 hours ago, Toivia said:

Neustrashimy: (...) must be OP enough, I guess

Looks like you didn´t read the devblog so you guess that Neustrashimy is op, because must be, because russian (Soviet, but who cares). It says:

 

Neustrashimy has a large hull and turning circle, and, as a result, when faced with other destroyers and detected, she lost a large amount of hit points. As a result, the destroyer was forced to spend all its charges of the "Repair party" and still did not get a full opportunity to return to the battle.

 

 

As an example:

Would you take the Ognevoi over the Lightning?

If not: why?

And now imagine the similar situation a tier higher. So much for the ru-bias. 

 

 

 

I agree with you on the other points, especially about the holding back of ready-to-release ships like Alaska.

[Toivia]

3 hours ago, drmajga said:

Looks like you didn´t read the devblog so you guess that Neustrashimy is op, because must be, because russian (Soviet, but who cares). It says:

 

Neustrashimy has a large hull and turning circle, and, as a result, when faced with other destroyers and detected, she lost a large amount of hit points. As a result, the destroyer was forced to spend all its charges of the "Repair party" and still did not get a full opportunity to return to the battle.

 

 

As an example:

Would you take the Ognevoi over the Lightning?

If not: why?

And now imagine the similar situation a tier higher. So much for the ru-bias. 

 

 

 

I agree with you on the other points, especially about the holding back of ready-to-release ships like Alaska.

Thing is, Neustrashimy has insane concealment... and a heal already... and speed boost... and a large hp pool... and better than usual soviet torps...

I've seen streamers play Neustrashimy and it looked fine as it was before this uber heal. I do not condone making ships better just when it's announced they'll be available for Steel.

And seriously, bristish heal on a DD is just stupid. Normal heals on DDs are stupid as it is (on Khaba etc, at least you pay with smoke for it), this is next level stupid.

 

EDIT: Neustrashimy also has 360 degree turrets, damn it's crazy how many gimmicks I can keep thinking of it already has. If it ain't obvious yet, I considered Neustrashimy OP even before this buff.

[HystericalAccuracy]

4 hours ago, Toivia said:

Normal heals on DDs are stupid as it is

Like, why should a ship that is not a BB have something that BBs already get at Tier III? It´s not like BBs are getting hydro or torpedoes. ^^

Hearing "DD is OP" from a player that doesn´t play destroyers is, eh... Y´know the BB-Bingo card?

Sorry for criticizing you on personal level, but you seem to be so anxious about this ship that i had to look at your stats.

 

 

I wonder what streamers you watched, because the few i saw on EU and NA said things like "Why should i play Neustrashimy over ANYTHING else?" which doesn´t indicate that the ship is strong. Also, a German CC said straightout "i will not spend my coal on this thing" - and now WG even wants steel for it.

 

People barely play the Grozovoi and when i see it in battle it´s impact is meh. It already has all the gimmicks that Neustra will get and it does not work. Being huge and clumsy is bad for a ship class whose strenghts are invisibility and manouverability. And Groz is too clumsy. Now imagine that platform with 2x2 instead 3x2 guns. The 360°-ability doesn´t help here. And while the torpedoes do look good on paper, to launch them the ship has to show its huge broadside - and can´t turn away swiftly. At least, it only has to take the risk only every two minutes because of the long reload.

 

Btw concealment: the current meta with radars and CVs kills it for all DDs.

 

 

4 hours ago, Toivia said:

bristish heal on a DD is just stupid

British heal is just stupid in general.

 

 

And honestly, i am grunty at WG because i was interested in this ship. But steel? Nah.

[1MajorKoenig]

13 hours ago, ColonelPete said:

There is a difference between taking away guns or making 305mm guns behave like 305mm guns and not 380mm guns.

It should be obvious that 12x380mm are a bit much for Tier IV, even Tier V.

 

And 16km range are more than enough for Tier V and even too much for Tier IV....

 

Why are VU’s guns that strong? Wasn’t aware that these guns were anything special?

[Aragathor]

6 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Why are VU’s guns that strong? Wasn’t aware that these guns were anything special?

It's the amount, 4x3 rifles compared to other ships at tier. They are not special otherwise, in fact they are quite inferior to IJN and USN shells of same caliber.

[ColonelPete]

7 minutes ago, 1MajorKoenig said:

 

Why are VU’s guns that strong? Wasn’t aware that these guns were anything special?

2800 Krupp for the shells.

Bayern has 2454 Krupp. The difference negates the weight advantage (750kg to 450kg per shell) of the 380mm guns.

WW2 shells have 2400 to 2600 Krupp.

WW1 shells have between 2200 and 2500 Krupp.

Pre WW1 shells can have much lower values (Mikasa 1373, Kawachi 1924)

[creamgravy]

Wyoming B-hull has better AP pen for a BB with 12 x 305mm guns. I think it would be fine at tier 4 ...but they do like accurate premiums.

 

Don't forget KM and RN ships get gimmick AP as a national trait, both have reduced pen in return for higher AP damage (KM) or better HE (RN) They're not ships to use as yard sticks.

[ColonelPete]

55 minutes ago, Aragathor said:

It's the amount, 4x3 rifles compared to other ships at tier. They are not special otherwise, in fact they are quite inferior to IJN and USN shells of same caliber.

IJN 305mm is much weaker.

US 305mm comes close after 5km thx to very high muzzle velocity and post WW1 drag values.

[fumtu]

47 minutes ago, creamgravy said:

I think it would be fine at tier 4

 

Can I ask you what version you talking about and what makes you think that, for what I saw watching Flamu playing her original version at T4 she was ridiculously OP. Just putting numbers there doesn't complete picture. Yes she has less health then other T4 but her armour layout make her more resilient to HE span and make her survive longer then BBs with more health. Combine that with 12 305mm guns, great maneuverability, tho quite slow, great concealment and you have a nice seal clubber at T4. 

 

WG is just making uproar among community with just possible nerf to another OP ship but seems like we don't have anything against adding another one to the game. We are really fast to blame WG for releasing OP ship contrary to all "CCs and Community disagreement" but when overperforming ship is nerfed same community is quite ready to criticize WG for that.  

[AkosJaccik]

Personally, I do not have a problem with nerfing VU whatsoever. I have a problem with putting her into T5 (...and then nerfing her), because you just can't work around the speed, the HP and the AA. Statistically, WG might get a perfectly balanced ship on paper, based on data, with a beautiful, fat and coveted '50%', but will it be a fun ship?

F*ck no. When half of the player's games will end up getting dive bombed back to the Abyss in the first five minutes, when the games will end up getting pulverized by 406mm shells, and the rest maybe testing the glorious torpedo protection, this "balanced ship" will become a port queen faster than you could say "Otranto strait" out loud.

 

I did not need an OP ship. I needed a ship that is fun to play, and if I need 12 guns on a slow platform sailing in T7 matchmaking, I'll just grab the New Mexico. Because if this A-H ship will not be a fun one, which will, the Monarch-class...? The U-14 maybe...?

[HaachamaShipping]

32 minutes ago, fumtu said:

 

Can I ask you what version you talking about and what makes you think that, for what I saw watching Flamu playing her original version at T4 she was ridiculously OP. Just putting numbers there doesn't complete picture. Yes she has less health then other T4 but her armour layout make her more resilient to HE span and make her survive longer then BBs with more health. Combine that with 12 305mm guns, great maneuverability, tho quite slow, great concealment and you have a nice seal clubber at T4. 

 

WG is just making uproar among community with just possible nerf to another OP ship but seems like we don't have anything against adding another one to the game. We are really fast to blame WG for releasing OP ship contrary to all "CCs and Community disagreement" but when overperforming ship is nerfed same community is quite ready to criticize WG for that.  

The issue is that the things that made VU so powerful are values WG could tinker around with, like the silly concealment, Krupp value on shells, armour plating strength, while the values that make the ship crap at T5 are far harder to change, like 20 knots speed, 1910s-style AA designed around shooting down scouting baloons and the small size causing small amount of hp, because the strengths are mostly fictional values, the weaknesses are historical. The whole historic configuration of VU screams T4, yet WG deemed it necessary to give the ship whatever crap and force it into T5, wherer it now obviously sucks, because while concealment and armour hold up vs T5, they don't hold up vs T6 and T7 when you got no hp and no speed. When you are slower than a Colorado, it's easy to just close the distance, as it's unlikely that you left the area since you were last spotted a short while ago when you fired (unless you intent to never do anything). Giulio at least had some speed to shift position.

[creamgravy]

26 minutes ago, fumtu said:

but her armour layout make her more resilient to HE span and make her survive longer then BBs with more health.

 

Most dreadnoughts are immune to destroyer or cruiser AP/HE pen damage. Fire's the main way these ships are damaged due low hull fire prevention, it's a low tier gameplay feature (poor old low tier RN CLs) 

 

Accuracy is always the main balancing factor. It would be far less effective with KM dispersion and 1.5 sigma, VU could even use older 2chr shells (Ish/Arc etc) ...but it seems WG are intent on giving her tight grouping/high AP pen as a feature (pan EU national trait?)  So they have to force a circle into square hole ...again.

[Toivia]

5 hours ago, drmajga said:

Like, why should a ship that is not a BB have something that BBs already get at Tier III? It´s not like BBs are getting hydro or torpedoes. ^^

Hearing "DD is OP" from a player that doesn´t play destroyers is, eh... Y´know the BB-Bingo card?

Sorry for criticizing you on personal level, but you seem to be so anxious about this ship that i had to look at your stats.

 

 

I wonder what streamers you watched, because the few i saw on EU and NA said things like "Why should i play Neustrashimy over ANYTHING else?" which doesn´t indicate that the ship is strong. Also, a German CC said straightout "i will not spend my coal on this thing" - and now WG even wants steel for it.

 

People barely play the Grozovoi and when i see it in battle it´s impact is meh. It already has all the gimmicks that Neustra will get and it does not work. Being huge and clumsy is bad for a ship class whose strenghts are invisibility and manouverability. And Groz is too clumsy. Now imagine that platform with 2x2 instead 3x2 guns. The 360°-ability doesn´t help here. And while the torpedoes do look good on paper, to launch them the ship has to show its huge broadside - and can´t turn away swiftly. At least, it only has to take the risk only every two minutes because of the long reload.

 

Btw concealment: the current meta with radars and CVs kills it for all DDs.

 

 

British heal is just stupid in general.

 

 

And honestly, i am grunty at WG because i was interested in this ship. But steel? Nah.

When a streamer says "Why should I play this over anything else?" it means it is not the next meta changer. It is finally not a premium that is way too much powercreep (T9 is already crazy with Black, Kitakaze and Jutland). I was fully expecting for Neustra to be FreeXP (for the whole russian server to get it) and was looking forward to get it.

 

When it comes to heals: British heal being stupid in general. Yeah, I guess that makes sense indeed. Other classes of ships getting a BB consummable I am fine with. For a long time I want many if not all T8 cruisers to get heal. Cruisers in general are shafted in this game and need all the consummables they can get. BBs shouldn't be getting hydro (DoY is a piece of crap anyway, german BBs would work fine without it) or even radar (soviet BBs, ahem...).

But DDs shouldn't have heals simply because they have no citadels. And if they do get heals, they need significant downsides otherwise (ie. no smoke).

In DD engagements, it is imperative to know how much hp the enemy DD has.

 

About the concealment: Yes, the current shitty CV rework is wrecking everything. Hopefully it will go away fast and we'll revert to the old working meta of concealment being king. Either way, it is not a good idea to buff one DD because of current anti-DD environment while all others are left in the dust. That is simply powercreep at its finest and needs to be avoided at all costs.

 

One last note about soviet ships in general: You mention Grozovoi is barely played. Thing is many soviet ships keep receiving buffs because they are not popular or people have bad stats in them even though I consider them very very strong. Grozovoi is another ship I consider overbuffed. Moskva is also a ship that in my opinion didn't need the buff of 50mm strips of armor (it's a monster of a cruiser anyway) on its bow.

I have a theory myself that maybe people don't want to play the often imaginary paper ships (or cold war era ships) regardless of their actual capability or perhaps people attracted to soviet designs just aren't that great or interested in skillful play.

[HystericalAccuracy]

@Toivia I agree on pretty much everything of what you wrote. Good points indeed. 

 

Regarding the "Lynkori" (Ru-BBs) getting radar: Uaaargh, this is so stupid that i willingly forgot about it. But in the end it´s a nerf to all BBs. In storm all ships will be hidden from view, only battleships will get lighten up by the Ru-BBs.

 

And in general, with a 33 sec reload i will rather take a safe shot at an other BB than potentially waste a salvo by missing a nimble DD - and wait for 33 seconds more. Yeah, i think the RuBBs will turn out to be a nerf on the BBs in general.

 

3 hours ago, Toivia said:

One last note about soviet ships in general:

Also good points. Why the Moskva need that extra strip... Still, when ranked comes to Tier8, i will take Lightning over Ognevoi.

[Aotearas]

So, according to the live stream Q&A shooting down aircraft still gives XP and credits, i.e.: not bugged.

 

Somehow however that doesn't exactly match my experience ingame where I really don't see any more XP/credits rewards than what I'd expect from just my damage and cap numbers. Had a couple games with 30+ aircraft shotdown when testing AA builds/ships and expected a whole lot more XP than I actually ended up with. If aircraft kill economy is working as intended, then holy moly did they turn down the rewards for it drastically.

[El2aZeR]

1 minute ago, Aotearas said:

Somehow however that doesn't exactly match my experience ingame where I really don't see any more XP/credits rewards than what I'd expect from just my damage and cap numbers. Had a couple games with 30+ aircraft shotdown when testing AA builds/ships and expected a whole lot more XP than I actually ended up with. If aircraft kill economy is working as intended, then holy moly did they turn down the rewards for it drastically.

 

In the old system 40 aircraft kills = 1 full HP surface ship kill.

As such you'd need like 60-80 to do well on plane kills.

 

I honestly doubt they made the effort to change that considering it was already miserable.

[Aotearas]

11 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

In the old system 40 aircraft kills = 1 full HP surface ship kill.

As such you'd need like 60-80 to do well on plane kills.

 

I honestly doubt they made the effort to change that considering it was already miserable.

Still, when I compare the XP expectations (XPectations, hue hue hue) from a 30+ plane kill game pre-rework and now it's not quite adding up.

 

If I look at a game like this:

Spoiler

 

I don't see how I got rewarded for the 45 aircraft kills. 2,3k base XP is pretty much flat in the ballpark for what I'd expect for having two solo caps, almost an entire cap's worth of base defense, 3/4 kill on a DD (toptier, same as me), full kill on Ranger and a bit more damage sprinkled around. I would've expected more base XP with that number of plane kills.