Discussion thread for "some interesting info around the world"

[Toivia]

19 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Concealment isn't about not being spotted when shooting, it's about being able to make an approach and being able to disengage. Especially for a cruiser it is vital to beable to disengage and not be forced to continue fighting after the advantage passed to the enemy. Most cruisers have a far easier time going dark again, Kronshtadt meanwhile handles like a battleship in that matter. A battleship with inadequate armour. Because it's a cruiser with a ton of hp and a terrible concealment for a cruiser. Try to play it like a 6th BB, any BB you meet can likely remind you that you are a cruiser and not a BB and that you might reload faster, but your dpm is garbage. Like, Kronshtadt isn't harmless, but as long as a BB doesn't expose its broadside, you can just murder it, while it either bounces off or tries to HE spam you with terrible HE. It is basically what Graf Spee already has at T6. Graf Spee can wreck BBs if they show broadside or if they are close enough for torps, but a 1v1 vs a BB is just terrible, a kiting Nürnberg has more chances to dodge and burn down the BB. Similarly, in a 1v1, a Kronshtadt is basically free damage for a BB, while at least any other cruiser could try to kite or torp. Like Graf Spee, these ships are designed as cruiser killers and that's basically the one and only thing they are really somewhat good at, if they get the broadside. Everything else they are at best passable and against cruisers game mechanics screw them in a 1v1.

 

 

Yeah, you rightfully point out 1v1. And you're kinda right there. But again, Randoms aren't 1v1, and you underestimate Kron's ability to move, maneuver and go stealth still far better than BBs and not far behind from other cruisers.

Funny point is I just looked up Kron DPM and it's far from terrible in fact. It even matches the Roon in HE (I know, I know, german HE). I guess I will start to use HE more.

 

10 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

The problem regarding this isn't "Is it better than a typical T9 cruiser in tanking?" 70k hp ensure that. The problem is that when you know where to aim in a BB, you can quickly bring a Kronshtadt down. And while you can kill most other cruisers fast too when you shoot at them, most other cruisers don't rely on hp + belt to keep them alive. The 15 mm section just means, showing broadside in this ship gets you killed faster than you'd think against people who know where to aim and the 25 mm bow means you cannot bowtank either. Typically, cruisers just don't rely on tanking, though 27 mm and 30 mm plating on some can make it viable against select few ships, where it then is rather reliable. But Kronshtadt is anything but reliable armour.

Tel me what BB will allow you to aim specifically at those 15mm citadel roofs and actually hit them. Sure, many can do that when brawling with Kronshtadt. But if you're brawling with Kron, you're doomed anyway.

 

Overall I think you're underestimating Kron's resilience hugely. It's not just the belt and huge hp that makes it far tankier than other cruisers. It's reasonably fast and manoeuvrable and concealed compared to regular T9 cruisers (unlike say Moskva and Stalingrad at Tier 10, but those have other advantages).

[Kartoffelmos]

21 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

The problem regarding this isn't "Is it better than a typical T9 cruiser in tanking?" 70k hp ensure that. The problem is that when you know where to aim in a BB, you can quickly bring a Kronshtadt down. And while you can kill most other cruisers fast too when you shoot at them, most other cruisers don't rely on hp + belt to keep them alive. The 15 mm section just means, showing broadside in this ship gets you killed faster than you'd think against people who know where to aim and the 25 mm bow means you cannot bowtank either. Typically, cruisers just don't rely on tanking, though 27 mm and 30 mm plating on some can make it viable against select few ships, where it then is rather reliable. But Kronshtadt is anything but reliable armour.

 

Against cruisers, her armour is extremely reliable though. And while she does not have the Donskoi's speed, her concealment is not that much worse (around 500 metres with full stealth build). I'm not arguing that it is not a weakness, I'm just saying that she is in a far better position than most tier 9 cruisers. Even against people who know where to aim, the vulnerable zones are less pronounced than an entire citadel side worth of vulnerability that most (again, excluding Roon at close-range) cruisers "enjoy". The server stats for the ship also seem to support this, at least they did the last time I checked.

 

17 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

I do not have the armour model, but unless you aim very low or the roof is overmatchable, no.

 

If you are able to overmatch the bow (without arming the shell), the shell will need to penetrate 260 mm of citadel armour and overmatch 19 mm of citadel roof armour. That is, if you avoid the 70 mm barbette armour or alternatively just pass through it.

[Panocek]

16 minutes ago, Verdius said:

I just hope that the next T9 free XP after what currently in the works is not going to be another BB or supercruiser (aka BB disguised as CA).
Traditional cruisers and DDs need some love too. 

 

  Hide contents

AND NO WG THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE NEED ANOTHER 20KM DEEPWATER TORP AT T9

 

Senjo. Prototype of Zao class, armed with 12x regular IJN 203mm and 12km derpwater torps as T9 Free Exp cruiser

[Kartoffelmos]

Just now, Panocek said:

Senjo. Prototype of Zao class, armed with 12x regular IJN 203mm and 12km derpwater torps as T9 Free Exp cruiser

 

[Toivia]

Oh yes, I fully expect similar designs as Kron and Alaska for other countries. I've already heard many mentions of some similar cruiser killer from the Japanese. (And no, I'm pretty sure that was something else than a prototype Zao at T9. )

I'll be great fun when one team has regular cruisers while the other only Alaskas, Krons and similar. I'm just happy I seem to be making enough Coal and FreeXP to hopefully be able to get them all.

[HaachamaShipping]

1 minute ago, NothingButTheRain said:

It's from the same streamer you posted this here from 

Or it was Flambass, but I think it was actually Flamu as well. After this, he started experimenting and came up with going sideways to a Yamato, which is the easiest tier 10 BB to citadel through the cheek weakspot.

As said, the main thing through the bow is, if you aim down and strike at the waterline, the shell moves on through the bow and strikes the forward bulkhead below the waterline. From the side, if you hit the waterline, the citadel already is below that and you just bounce off the cit roof. Is my guess.

Just now, Toivia said:

Yeah, you rightfully point out 1v1. And you're kinda right there. But again, Randoms aren't 1v1, and you underestimate Kron's ability to move, maneuver and go stealth still far better than BBs and not far behind from other cruisers.

Funny point is I just looked up Kron DPM and it's far from terrible in fact. It even matches the Roon in HE (I know, I know, german HE). I guess I will start to use HE more.

You get outspotted by the USN BBs, by the Jean Bart, by the Lion, you are barely able to leverage anything against Alsace, IJN and German is worse. That is not, "far better than BBs", it's basically a BB in concealment.  And if you cannot manage to leverage concealment in randoms, uhm... frankly, that is not an issue with randoms.

 

HE dpm/fires per minute (IFHE adjusted):

Seattle: 243k/ 11 fpm

Buffalo: 155k/7.7 fpm

D. Donskoi: 144k/6.3 fpm

Saint Louis: 137k/7.3 fpm

Ibuki: 132k/6.8 fpm

Kronshtadt: 122k/7 fpm

Roon: 122k/6 fpm

 

For comparison:

Amagi: 130k/6 fpm

 

Congrats, you match the Roon with HE. Because Roon's not just the worst HE dpm at T9. At least the fire setting qualities aren't complete trash on your ship. Just not good either and in the HE contest, 45 seconds burn time vs 30 seconds does hurt. As does BB accuracy vs cruiser accuracy in actually hitting stuff with your HE. Frankly, Amagi is better at HE slinging than a Kronshtadt (AP is still miles better ammo choice).

25 minutes ago, Toivia said:

Tel me what BB will allow you to aim specifically at those 15mm citadel roofs and actually hit them. Sure, many can do that when brawling with Kronshtadt. But if you're brawling with Kron, you're doomed anyway.

 

Overall I think you're underestimating Kron't resilience hugely. It's not just the belt and huge hp that makes it far tankier than other cruisers. It's reasonably fast and manoeuvrable and concealed compared to regular T9 cruisers.

It's not really much harder to aim at than Yamato cheek.

 

You overestimate the concealment hugely, as stated above.

36 minutes ago, Verdius said:

I just hope that the next T9 free XP after what currently in the works is not going to be another BB or supercruiser (aka BB disguised as CA).
Traditional cruisers and DDs need some love too. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

AND NO WG THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE NEED ANOTHER 20KM DEEPWATER TORP AT T9

 

You know it'll be B-65 and there's nothing we can do.

[Verdius]

7 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

You know it'll be B-65 and there's nothing we can do.

 

C-can't we have Yukikaze as a T9 upgraded Kagerou with the old style torps from the pre-rework T9 Kagerou?

[Panocek]

2 minutes ago, Verdius said:

 

C-can't we have Yukikaze as a T9 upgraded Kagerou with the old style torps from the pre-rework T9 Kagerou?

Or old Fubuki... but that would be too obvious, also no gimmicks for gimmick god.

[Toivia]

6 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

 

You get outspotted by the USN BBs, by the Jean Bart, by the Lion, you are barely able to leverage anything against Alsace, IJN and German is worse. That is not, "far better than BBs", it's basically a BB in concealment.  And if you cannot manage to leverage concealment in randoms, uhm... frankly, that is not an issue with randoms.

 

HE dpm/fires per minute (IFHE adjusted):

Seattle: 243k/ 11 fpm

Buffalo: 155k/7.7 fpm

D. Donskoi: 144k/6.3 fpm

Saint Louis: 137k/7.3 fpm

Ibuki: 132k/6.8 fpm

Kronshtadt: 122k/7 fpm

Roon: 122k/6 fpm

 

For comparison:

Amagi: 130k/6 fpm

 

Congrats, you match the Roon with HE. Because Roon's not just the worst HE dpm at T9. At least the fire setting qualities aren't complete trash on your ship. Just not good either and in the HE contest, 45 seconds burn time vs 30 seconds does hurt. As does BB accuracy vs cruiser accuracy in actually hitting stuff with your HE. Frankly, Amagi is better at HE slinging than a Kronshtadt (AP is still miles better ammo choice).

It's not really much harder to aim at than Yamato cheek.

 

You overestimate the concealment hugely, as stated above.

You know it'll be B-65 and there's nothing we can do.

Come on, you don't see what you just wrote? Somehow Kron's big weakness turns out not even being a weakness. The firesetting and HE DPM are very comparable across the board. The one outlier is Seattle.

And hey, I compared speed, manoeuvrability and concealment as a whole against BBs, not just concealment. Besides, again: Concealment is great, but unless we talk competitive or Ranked, it doesn't nearly matter as much. particularly since we talk differences of hundreds of meters or a couple kilometers at worst. (Example: two ships sail towards a cap, Kron one of them, first ship outspots Kron, but before it's able to react, it will get spotted anyway.)

[ForlornSailor]

42 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

The problem regarding this isn't "Is it better than a typical T9 cruiser in tanking?" 70k hp ensure that. The problem is that when you know where to aim in a BB, you can quickly bring a Kronshtadt down. And while you can kill most other cruisers fast too when you shoot at them, most other cruisers don't rely on hp + belt to keep them alive. The 15 mm section just means, showing broadside in this ship gets you killed faster than you'd think against people who know where to aim and the 25 mm bow means you cannot bowtank either. Typically, cruisers just don't rely on tanking, though 27 mm and 30 mm plating on some can make it viable against select few ships, where it then is rather reliable. But Kronshtadt is anything but reliable armour.

 

23 minutes ago, Kartoffelmos said:

Against cruisers, her armour is extremely reliable though. And while she does not have the Donskoi's speed, her concealment is not that much worse (around 500 metres with full stealth build). I'm not arguing that it is not a weakness, I'm just saying that she is in a far better position than most tier 9 cruisers. Even against people who know where to aim, the vulnerable zones are less pronounced than an entire citadel side worth of vulnerability that most (again, excluding Roon at close-range) cruisers "enjoy". The server stats for the ship also seem to support this, at least they did the last time I checked.

 

I think you are both right. The "problem" (if there is one) is, that Kronshtadt - much like Stalingrad - is put into the Cruiser-class. So it bends the capabilities of the teams. And with the current meta, this seems to be favourable for the team, that gets the Kronshtadt. Lets say, Kronshtadt would be an own class, like CB. So every game would always have 1x1 direct matched Kronshtadts. Would we have a discussion about the ship? Would we talk, if its OP or not? Would we compare it to BBs oder Cruisers in the way, we are doing atm? I think not, atleast not to that degree.

 

Or how would we see the Kronshtadt, if it would be put into the BB-class? We prolly would call it a crappy ship, right? It would most likely be a liability to the team, since you´d have 1 BB less. So Kronshtadt really is neither Cruiser nor BB.

 

I think, this is a growing problem overall. The more ships / nations with national flavours aka Gimmicks we get, the more it can screw with the balance of one specific game. Overall it all might be fine, but in specific situations, it can swing one way of the other. There are so many examples for this. You can take the Kronshtadt. If there is a CV in the game and the Kron is paired against a Neptune (lets assume everyone in the round is of equal, decent skill), the advantage might very well be in the team with the Neptune.

[Toivia]

9 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

 

I think you are both right. The "problem" (if there is one) is, that Kronshtadt - much like Stalingrad - is put into the Cruiser-class. So it bends the capabilities of the teams. And with the current meta, this seems to be favourable for the team, that gets the Kronshtadt. Lets say, Kronshtadt would be an own class, like CB. So every game would always have 1x1 direct matched Kronshtadts. Would we have a discussion about the ship? Would we talk, if its OP or not? Would we compare it to BBs oder Cruisers in the way, we are doing atm? I think not, atleast not to that degree.

 

Or how would we see the Kronshtadt, if it would be put into the BB-class? We prolly would call it a crappy ship, right? It would most likely be a liability to the team, since you´d have 1 BB less. So Kronshtadt really is neither Cruiser nor BB.

 

I think, this is a growing problem overall. The more ships / nations with national flavours aka Gimmicks we get, the more it can screw with the balance of one specific game. Overall it all might be fine, but in specific situations, it can swing one way of the other. There are so many examples for this. You can take the Kronshtadt. If there is a CV in the game and the Kron is paired against a Neptune (lets assume everyone in the round is of equal, decent skill), the advantage might very well be in the team with the Neptune.

That's it exactly. Kron takes the spot of a cruiser, therefore I'm forced to compare it to cruisers. (And while others disagree, in that comparison, Kron wins by far.)

[HaachamaShipping]

2 minutes ago, Toivia said:

Come on, you don't see what you just wrote? Somehow Kron's big weakness turns out not even being a weakness. The firesetting and HE DPM are very comparable across the board. The one outlier is Seattle.

And hey, I compared speed, manoeuvrability and concealment as a whole against BBs, not just concealment. Besides, again: Concealment is great, but unless we talk competitive or Ranked, it doesn't nearly matter as much. particularly since we talk differences of hundreds of meters or a couple kilometers at worst. (Example: two ships sail towards a cap, Kron one of them, first ship outspots Kron, but before it's able to react, it will get spotted anyway.)

I mean, if you want to think that that dpm is good, or that the concealment is good, despite being joint worst in both categories, feel free to. The ship isn't OP.

5 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

I think you are both right. The "problem" (if there is one) is, that Kronshtadt - much like Stalingrad - is put into the Cruiser-class. So it bends the capabilities of the teams. And with the current meta, this seems to be favourable for the team, that gets the Kronshtadt. Lets say, Kronshtadt would be an own class, like CB. So every game would always have 1x1 direct matched Kronshtadts. Would we have a discussion about the ship? Would we talk, if its OP or not? Would we compare it to BBs oder Cruisers in the way, we are doing atm? I think not, atleast not to that degree.

I mean, it's the Khaba of cruisers. It almost is another class of ship, but still fairly within the class it is tagged as. And it is good for certain cases, but in others, it falls flat. Is Khaba OP?

[Toivia]

5 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

I mean, if you want to think that that dpm is good, or that the concealment is good, despite being joint worst in both categories, feel free to. The ship isn't OP.

Never called it good, but DPM and HE are supposed to be its main weakness, where it is actually worse than a regular cruiser. Sure it may be worse, but it's not by much. It is decent, comparable still. Nowhere near outclassed like it kinda should be. Yet it gains many things other cruisers don't have. (It's guns perform a lot more like BBs than cruisers, it gains insane amount of health, it gains a better armor.) Clearly that can't mean it is balanced, no? This is going in circles, it should be painfully obvious. I don't understand how you can still oppose the idea while you actually keep bringing arguments that support it.

 

9 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

I mean, it's the Khaba of cruisers. It almost is another class of ship, but still fairly within the class it is tagged as. And it is good for certain cases, but in others, it falls flat. Is Khaba OP?

It needed massive nerfs and is still very good, does that answer your question? It should.

[HaachamaShipping]

1 minute ago, Toivia said:

Never called it good, but DPM and HE are supposed to be its main weakness, where it is actually worse than a regular cruiser. Sure it may be worse, but it's not by much. It is decent, comparable still. Nowhere near outclassed like it kinda should be. Yet it gains many things other cruisers don't have. (It's guns perform a lot more like BBs than cruisers, it gains insane amount of health, it gains a better armor.) Clearly that can't mean it is balanced, no? This is going in circles, it should be painfully obvious. I don't understand how you can still oppose the idea while you actually keep bringing arguments that support it.

I mean, you seem to want to think it OP, so...

2 minutes ago, Toivia said:

It needed massive nerfs and is still very good, does that answer your question? It should.

It still is basically moving towards CL.

[ForlornSailor]

27 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

Is Khaba OP?

 

Not if you ask me. Neither is Kronshtadt.

[HaachamaShipping]

12 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Not if you ask me. Neither is Kronshtadt.

Which is my point. We are talking like a T9 CA pretending to be a T7 BB is somehow powercreep, ignoring that just because it blurrs class lines in some regards (and falling short) is one thing, but a T9 cruiser basically should be as much value as a T9 BB on a team. It just has another role. Not that Kronshtadt even goes all the way.

[NothingButTheRain]

16 hours ago, Riselotte said:

As said, the main thing through the bow is, if you aim down and strike at the waterline, the shell moves on through the bow and strikes the forward bulkhead below the waterline. From the side, if you hit the waterline, the citadel already is below that and you just bounce off the cit roof. Is my guess.

It was featured on the streams that Alaska could actually be citadelled from the front. This was before Flamu tried the whole "broadside like a braindead" thing 

Quote

You overestimate the concealment hugely, as stated above.

You know it'll be B-65 and there's nothing we can do.

I'd actually like to see the B-65 make an appearance in the game. They were kinda being ignored for the longest time as WG didn't have a good idea as to how to implement them in the game.

Making them freemiums happens to kinda be the best opportunity for them to be added and WG is kinda catching up now, so I can understand (and personally don't mind) all these battlecruiser-esk designs making it into the game relatively lots now.

 

There's also the 1047 design (NL) and the Plan-z cruisers btw 

[ShinGetsu]

16 hours ago, Toivia said:

That's it exactly. Kron takes the spot of a cruiser, therefore I'm forced to compare it to cruisers. (And while others disagree, in that comparison, Kron wins by far.)

I actually disagree. Kron can be in a very difficult situation if forced to duel another tier 9 cruiser. When fighting an angled cruiser, it can't do much, while the other out-DPM it massively, and depending on the ship, can either burn it to crisp or deal massive AP damage even if Kron angles.

I really don't want to fight a Buffalo or an Ibuki that knows what he's doing in Kron.

 

On the other hand, Kron tend to survive longer against large ships and tend to deal more damage over the duration of one game.

[HaachamaShipping]

40 minutes ago, NothingButTheRain said:

I'd actually like to see the B-65 make an appearance in the game. They were kinda being ignored for the longest time as WG didn't have a good idea as to how to implement them in the game.

Making them freemiums happens to kinda be the best opportunity for them to be added and WG is kinda catching up now, so I can understand (and personally don't mind) all these battlecruiser-esk designs making it into the game relatively lots now.

 

There's also the 1047 design (NL) and the Plan-z cruisers btw 

I just want a big gun cruiser with torps and IJN aesthetics. 

[tajj7]

Personally I don't like the whole citadel concept anyway, it's too rng, too punishing (especially as so many cruisers can get citadelled and deleted when not sailing broadside, which means it's not even really a mistake, it's a hey lose all your HP because some BB got some rng) 

 

It's a bit like detonations, I don't think you should have an HP balance system, and then have the ability to basically one shot people/cripple them.

 

I prefer more like what happens to German BBs where sailing broadside unangled, hurts, they get punished for it, but more proportionally, IMO that should apply to everything.

 

Make it more consistent, having shells that range in damage from 1k to 15k or whatever is just silly IMO. 

 

Remove citadels, make AP damage more consistent/maybe higher, or maybe tone down citadel damage to get more proportional risk/reward. Not sure what my exact solution would be, but I do not think an AP penetration should be like 3k and then suddenly you hit a certain part of the ship and your damage is like 3-4 times higher, especially when so much RNG is a factor in deciding whether that happens. At the very least I'd like to see those two figures brought closer together, like AP pens on say broadsides do more damage, to punish broadsiding, but citadel damage is brought down to reduce the one shots, cruisers deleted when 20km away zigzagging.  Maybe then you could also be more consistent with citadels. 

 

Hence why that aspect of the Alaska does not bother me, WG just need to be more consistent with these things, Alaska looks like it's got plenty of drawbacks to make it balanced, at least to the meta, maybe not the other tier 9 cruisers, but they seem not great a class. 

[HaachamaShipping]

4 minutes ago, tajj7 said:

Personally I don't like the whole citadel concept anyway, it's too rng, too punishing (especially as so many cruisers can get citadelled and deleted when not sailing broadside, which means it's not even really a mistake, it's a hey lose all your HP because some BB got some rng) 

The only reason it is RNG on BBs is because certain citadels are so hard to hit. Thew few cruisers that can get citpenned from any angle aren't RNG. It's typically just that you should avoid getting shot at by BB guns overall. And are we going to nerf pens next, because it's so RNG how they deal 3 times what an overpen does? Let's just make all damage overpen damage. At that point, HE spam reigns supreme, because what is the point of AP if fires just flat out do more?

[tajj7]

8 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

The only reason it is RNG on BBs is because certain citadels are so hard to hit. Thew few cruisers that can get citpenned from any angle aren't RNG. It's typically just that you should avoid getting shot at by BB guns overall. And are we going to nerf pens next, because it's so RNG how they deal 3 times what an overpen does? Let's just make all damage overpen damage. At that point, HE spam reigns supreme, because what is the point of AP if fires just flat out do more?

 

It's RNG full stop because there is a lot of RNG in gunnery full stop.  You then have this massive disparity between what an AP shell can do in terms of damage which I think is silly.

 

Plus as I said the whole one shot concept is stupid in a game like this and unfun IMO.

 

Fires are fully healable, careful management makes them close to useless at times, they only really work when you are getting shot by multiple targets or people stack them or people use their repair on one of them.  Fires and HE damage are damage over time and DPM type damage, BBs are specifically designed to weather these attacks. 

 

AP damage is damage that sticks more because it is less healable 

 

Like I said I'd prefer consistency, not 'oh my shot went a bit higher than I aimed and now I have just lost 70% of my damage' or vice versa, or 'I just slinged 9 shots 20km across the map in the general direction of a ship and I've just deleted that cruiser who is sailing away because 4 just happened to hit his citadel'. 

 

Let's not pretend there is much skill in something like that. Please don't tell me the bow camping BBs who sit at the back and then get the occasional one shot are getting anything more than luck rewarding their poor play.l 

 

I having nothing against AP shells doing more damage than HE and doing more non-healable damage than HE, I just think citadel damage is too high, too RNG influenced and generally too punishing. 

[HaachamaShipping]

8 minutes ago, tajj7 said:

Fires are fully healable, careful management makes them close to useless at times, they only really work when you are getting shot by multiple targets or people stack them or people use their repair on one of them.  Fires and HE damage are damage over time and DPM type damage, BBs are specifically designed to weather these attacks. 

 

AP damage is damage that sticks more because it is less healable 

HE pens are as healable as AP pens, so? BBs weather HE because it doesn't do a lot of damage. Guess what happens when AP does joke amounts of damage. I don't care if that fire is fully healable. You can put them out or let them burn, you'd lose a repair party to restore it. HE can be so meaningless because it has no impact, reduce the impact AP has and guess where you end up.

[tajj7]

1 hour ago, Riselotte said:

HE pens are as healable as AP pens, so? BBs weather HE because it doesn't do a lot of damage. Guess what happens when AP does joke amounts of damage. I don't care if that fire is fully healable. You can put them out or let them burn, you'd lose a repair party to restore it. HE can be so meaningless because it has no impact, reduce the impact AP has and guess where you end up.

 

Where did I say reduce AP?

 

I said make it more consistent and less about RNG one bobbing people, if you think one bobbing is a good mechanic there is not much point in discussing anything with you. 

 

Part of the reason BBs camp and cruisers camp and are not that popular is this exact mechanic, because you can be a dead weight in a bb yet get a bit of RNG and remove an enemy cruiser out of the game just for having the audacity of getting spotted. This rewards the camping BBs when it shouldn't and it creates fear amongst the cruisers who also go passive. 

[HaachamaShipping]

30 minutes ago, tajj7 said:

 

Where did I say reduce AP?

 

I said make it more consistent and less about RNG one bobbing people, if you think one bobbing is a good mechanic there is not much point in discussing anything with you. 

 

Part of the reason BBs camp and cruisers camp and are not that popular is this exact mechanic, because you can be a dead weight in a bb yet get a bit of RNG and remove an enemy cruiser out of the game just for having the audacity of getting spotted. This rewards the camping BBs when it shouldn't and it creates fear amongst the cruisers who also go passive. 

By taking away citadel penetration damage, you basically take away one of the main reasons to fire AP. Look at RN BBs vs other BBs. Or Ishizuchi. Cannot citpen? What's more useful? maybe 20k upfront if the enemy doesn't angle? Or 10k anyway, with two fires and if it's a smaller ship some broken modules? The point of citpen damage is, you [edited]up, you die. It rewards proper positioning.

 

And no, there is no "Ugh, no skill, alll RNG", because any cruiser that can eat citadels like that should be goddamn aware of it. If you steam your Nürnberg around in the open and get citpenned through the front, then you should have been more aware where you steam your fragile cruiser. If you are a BB, getting citpenned basically is wholly up to you messing up.

 

If you got an issue with cruisers getting loldeleted, buff cruiser armour, don't just nerf the AP damage potential, because really, you aren't going to have much more fun when all BBs fire HE and your Nürnberg gets its engine knocked out twice in the open and then gets spammed into the ground.