Discussion thread for "some interesting info around the world"

[Toivia]

Because honestly who cares about T6? Those tiers are full of sealclubbing machines and you don't expect people to pay attention to anything on the map bar their one selected target. High tiers are way different.

 

Oh, another thing is that at T6, you often meet T8 ships as well. And there Graf Spee falls apart a lot. On the other hand, Kron and Alaska can only meet one higher tier that plays very similarly and where they keep pretty much all their disadvantages and advantages as they have relative to regular T9 cruisers.

 

So I guess those are the reasons why people won't really complain about Graf Spee the way the may about the T9 super cruisers.

[HaachamaShipping]

30 minutes ago, Toivia said:

Because honestly who cares about T6? Those tiers are full of sealclubbing machines and you don't expect people to pay attention to anything on the map bar their one selected target. High tiers are way different.

 

Oh, another thing is that at T6, you often meet T8 ships as well. And there Graf Spee falls apart a lot. On the other hand, Kron and Alaska can only meet one higher tier that plays very similarly and where they keep pretty much all their disadvantages and advantages as they have relative to regular T9 cruisers.

 

So I guess those are the reasons why people won't really complain about Graf Spee the way the may about the T9 super cruisers.

By that reasoning Giulio is fine because it only is the best T5 in T7, but T7 BBs still outclass it.

[Major_Damage225]

1 hour ago, Toivia said:

And DDs that you radar do what? That's right: run away, definitely not broadside.

Unless you'r me, in witch case "who radared me!! YOU!!  CHAAARRGGEE!!!!!!" 

[Deckeru_Maiku]

48 minutes ago, Toivia said:

Because honestly who cares about T6? Those tiers are full of sealclubbing machines and you don't expect people to pay attention to anything on the map bar their one selected target. High tiers are way different.

 

The funniest thing about this is, that there are really people who think this would be true...

 

[Toivia]

31 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

By that reasoning Giulio is fine because it only is the best T5 in T7, but T7 BBs still outclass it.

Reread my posts. I have made a point Graf Spee is stronger than regular T6 cruisers. But that given the tier, I suppose people don't care that much. Giulio is not fine, it is OP. But again, given the tier, it is not as much an issue as when a high tier ship overperforms. And I do believe I see a lot more flak being thrown at Conqueror and co. than at Giulio.

 

26 minutes ago, Major_Damage225 said:

Unless you'r me, in witch case "who radared me!! YOU!!  CHAAARRGGEE!!!!!!" 

Well than the result is the same, only aiming at a charging DD somehow feels easier to me.

 

24 minutes ago, Deckeru_Maiku said:

 

The funniest thing about this is, that there are really people who think this would be true...

 

Which part? Cause expecting I get blapped at any point from any direction works out just fine for me at high tiers. On low tiers I don't really care and it also works out.

Somehow people on high tiers seem to be more opportunistic and just hold their fire until they see a nice broadside. On low tiers you often just see them charging and shooting one target they either saw first or is closest (or is a ship they like to shoot at - aka Nurnberg).

[DFens_666]

26 minutes ago, Toivia said:

Reread my posts. I have made a point Graf Spee is stronger than regular T6 cruisers. But that given the tier, I suppose people don't care that much. Giulio is not fine, it is OP. But again, given the tier, it is not as much an issue as when a high tier ship overperforms. And I do believe I see a lot more flak being thrown at Conqueror and co. than at Giulio.

 

Seeing how they nerfed Black Swan twice, i dont think WG wants overperforming ships on any tier... atleast not silver once. Thats why GC is ok

Also ive seen many ppl fail miserably with Graf Spee, so i dont think it really is OP. Nelson is basicly the same, if you are bad, you will easily die in it, but when you are good, its a strong ship.

[Toivia]

6 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Seeing how they nerfed Black Swan twice, i dont think WG wants overperforming ships on any tier... atleast not silver once. Thats why GC is ok

Also ive seen many ppl fail miserably with Graf Spee, so i dont think it really is OP. Nelson is basicly the same, if you are bad, you will easily die in it, but when you are good, its a strong ship.

Well you can indeed fail miserably in anything. I repetedly fail miserably in the Missouri yet it is still OP. I'm sure I could fail miserably even in the Giulio if I had it. I'm particularly adept at failing in OP ships.

 

(And as far as whether WG wants overperforming ships... that's another matter entirely, I was talking about how much players  - or specifically me - react to overperforming ships depending on the tier. And again, I'm seeing a lot more bitching and whining about Harugumos, Missouris, Worcesters than Kamikazes, Konig Alberts etc.)

[HaachamaShipping]

19 minutes ago, Toivia said:

Reread my posts. I have made a point Graf Spee is stronger than regular T6 cruisers. But that given the tier, I suppose people don't care that much. Giulio is not fine, it is OP. But again, given the tier, it is not as much an issue as when a high tier ship overperforms. And I do believe I see a lot more flak being thrown at Conqueror and co. than at Giulio.

The main issue is, these ships aren't really OP. Well, Giulio is, but the cruisers largely are not. It's just easier to not die to mistakes when you have a lot of hp, but any cruiser that knows what you are doing can just spam you into the ground and any BB that doesn't have more pressing targets can look at you like a damage pinata. And as you said before, Kronshtadt is like a 6th BB... that assumes two things. First, that somehow a 6th BB is worth a lot in randoms, instead of randoms already being kinda saturated. It's not like this is CB, where a second BB would be immensely powerful. Second, that other T9 cruisers that catch your side are somehow less harmful. They aren't. Show your side to an attentive Roon/Buffalo/Donskoi and you'll lose most of your hp in short order. Buffalo has more than enough broadside alpha to delete a cruiser and better accuracy than Alaska (similarly, Pensacola can oneshot cruisers just as well at T6).

[Toivia]

Yes, other cruisers can also punish broadsides, but not at the same range, again, as I pointed out before. That's large cruisers' similarity to BBs. That's why I likened them to a 6th BB in a match. They can delete you across the map.

 

And yes, BBs are the most influential ships in a random battle - if you can get rid of DDs. And guess what: Kron and Alaska laugh at DDs. In a not so focused environment of random battles, large cruisers wreck normal cruisers (because they will show a bit of broadside at some point), wreck DDs and can also wreck BBs (because again, they will show some side at some point).

[HaachamaShipping]

7 hours ago, Toivia said:

Yes, other cruisers can also punish broadsides, but not at the same range, again, as I pointed out before. That's large cruisers' similarity to BBs. That's why I likened them to a 6th BB in a match. They can delete you across the map.

 

And yes, BBs are the most influential ships in a random battle - if you can get rid of DDs. And guess what: Kron and Alaska laugh at DDs. In a not so focused environment of random battles, large cruisers wreck normal cruisers (because they will show a bit of broadside at some point), wreck DDs and can also wreck BBs (because again, they will show some side at some point).

And are all too easy to kill, because their armour is not BB level and the whole ship can't be missed. The issue with the 6th BB analogy is, only the guns are really comparable to BB guns (and even then lack the overmatch). The rest of the ship, lolno. There are legit T7 BBs that are better to tank damage in than these things and the large hp pool doesn't make up for it. It makes up for being massive in size, thus also suffering in concealment, but when a BB shoots a Kronshtadt, this is not a T9 BB. It maybe is comparable to a T7 BB of the squishy sort, but trading in a T9 ship for a T7 ship of another category is OP now? A bad T7 BB that needs radar to not just be worse than Scharnhorst (massive hp pool does not outweigh having actual armour to not lose the hp in the first place and Scharnhorst gets torpedoes). And guess what, Kronshtadt and Alaska are basically the worst DD hunters as far as radar cruisers go. While BB AP pens on DDs hurt and are annoying, it is still pretty much RNG unreliably whether the 1-2 salvos you get off at a DD can do that or not. Donskoi or Buffalo HE doesn't gamble as much. You just eat a lot of damage or die. And given their concealment, these T9 cruisers also don't make a more potent radar threat over their tech tree counterparts. Kronshtadt makes a good torp target though when radar is down. Kronshtadt kind of compensates with Russian 11.7 km radar, something Alaska cannot, but compared to Alaska, Kronshtadt also has one other issue...its AA is atrocious. Donskoi is way better in that regard. While CVs are not common, they still do exist and are scheduled to be made more popular. And Kronshtadt vs Donskoi isn't Musashi vs Izumo, where Musashi AA is non-existent, but Izumo AA was never sufficient either.

 

Kronshtadt and Alaska, for all the BB claims made, are basically great when they can get into the right position to make their strengths felt, but they fall apart fast when they are caught out of position. They can alpha strike across the map (though with accuracy that is less than stellar for a cruiser) but they lack dpm and overmatch (which is still important). Also, does Moskva powercreep other T10 cruisers? It can punish broadsides across the map. It also has more hp (and actual armour). Guess that thing must be the best T10 cruiser there is, Worcester with its dpm but fewer hp or Zao with stealth torps and good concealment must be uncompetitive crap... oh wait. 

[Verdius]

11 hours ago, Riselotte said:

From personal experience in the ship, I have to disagree. These guns can dish out a world of pain and they can hit things pretty reliably. I didn't think too much of it at first, but by now, it's my favourite T6 cruiser after Leander and Perth. And stats kind of show that the ship has to be able to hit things, because how else is it second in overall WR, despite being almost as prolific as a tech tree ship.

Huang He at 5th place though 

[HaachamaShipping]

Just now, Verdius said:

Huang He at 5th place though 

And least battles except for Admiral Makarov. I guess most potatoes don't bother with the ship and only the hardcore Huang He pros stick with it. In the top 5%, Huang He actually is #2 in WR after Perth, followed by De Grasse, Dallas and then the Spees.

[Verdius]

4 minutes ago, Riselotte said:

hardcore Huang He pros

Now that is a combination of words I never expected to hear. 

In my heart Huang He and Krispy Kream will always hold their meme status, regardless of buffs etc

[HaachamaShipping]

2 minutes ago, Verdius said:

Now that is a combination of words I never expected to hear. 

I still won't touch it with a ten feet pole unless I get one from a crate.

One of our clan members claimed Huang He is competitive with Perth and is a really good ship. I already feel like Perth fire power can be lackluster, but one less gun turret?

[Humorpalanta]

12 hours ago, Major_Damage225 said:

I dont know about Alaska AP but Kronny's AP has a really bad habbit of overpenning, the only time it can do full pen damage to DD's is if that DD's is nose in and viceversa, otherwise it'll go straight through. 

Im not defending it, just saying 

Just played 2 days ago. Krohn appears out of nothing, radars me in smoke. 2 volleys AP and I'm dead. Great balans comrade

[DFens_666]

10 hours ago, Toivia said:

Well you can indeed fail miserably in anything. I repetedly fail miserably in the Missouri yet it is still OP. I'm sure I could fail miserably even in the Giulio if I had it. I'm particularly adept at failing in OP ships.

 

(And as far as whether WG wants overperforming ships... that's another matter entirely, I was talking about how much players  - or specifically me - react to overperforming ships depending on the tier. And again, I'm seeing a lot more bitching and whining about Harugumos, Missouris, Worcesters than Kamikazes, Konig Alberts etc.)

 

Imo saying Missouri is OP is wrong - then Iowa would need to be OP too. Having Radar doesnt make it better so to say, only when used properly. Which is imo kinda funny, everyone was always whining how BBs camp in the back, and then WG made a BB with Radar, so it can and should be more aggressive, and everyone started whining about it too

We can argue about BBs having Radar, which sure is questionable in my mind aswell. But same goes for DDs imo.

 

As for why ppl cry more about the hightier ships:

Probably because all the potatoes are in hightiers now. When they are playing midtier, the most likely dont care too much. They want to reach T10. So when they are T10, and get their asses handed to them frequently, ofc they will whine more about those ships.

Kamikaze is probably more OP than the other ships you listed. Concealment is awesome and the torps are very strong. It is very hard to deal with unless you are playing DD yourself, and even then it will outspot you (unless IJN DD). Any Kamikaze player is most likely a sealclubber, since its kinda hard to get one these days. And most other DDs are just new players, so the chances of them not running Concealment Expert is probably high. Which results in even easier matches for a Kamikaze. If you play Cruiser/BB, you probably cant do anything against it on your own. And sooner or later you might catch a torp.

Which is imo why its so OP: Hard to deal with, and probably the strongest ship in its class/tier.

Harugumo is more like frustrating to play against (same like Conqueror). It doesnt outspot other DDs, and its sluggish and big. So he will get punished by BBs and Cruisers. Problem is, the guns are just too strong against everything. And they "balanced" it, by making it clumsy and big.

Missouri is same as any BB in BB combat. Same vs Cruisers. DDs can spot it too, he most likely is only harder to torp than other BBs, unless you want to take the risks of being Radared. Strong against planes, but thats Iowa aswell. AND Missouri has no tool vs torps - all other BBs got atleast Planes

Compared to Worcester, which is VERY hard to deal with. (well soon not so much anymore). You cant spot him as a DD, because Radar. Spotting by plane also hard because strong AA. Hard to torp because Hydro, and hard to attack with planes because AA. Also the gunarcs lets it camp behind most islands.

 

[Spellfire40]

3 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

 

Compared to Worcester, which is VERY hard to deal with. (well soon not so much anymore). You cant spot him as a DD, because Radar. Spotting by plane also hard because strong AA. Hard to torp because Hydro, and hard to attack with planes because AA. Also the gunarcs lets it camp behind most islands.

 

The point is Missouri can go places were bo cruiser others than Stalingrad or moskwa would survive more than 60 seconds. cruisers who get near DDs are most of teh time the closest target for any oposing cruiser or BB. plus what is a dd gona do agist a bow on charging BB ? hiting 1-2 torps on the bow? Its not about the radar its about the radar on a blatform wich is VERY hard to kill compared to any other platform.

[ForlornSailor]

4 minutes ago, Spellfire40 said:

The point is Missouri can go places were bo cruiser others than Stalingrad or moskwa would survive more than 60 seconds.

 

Kurfürst cant go there? Conqueror? Whats new in that, that Cruisers cant do the same stuff as BBs?

 

6 minutes ago, Spellfire40 said:

what is a dd gona do agist a bow on charging BB ? hiting 1-2 torps on the bow?

 

Again - how is Missouri different there? I rush DDs with Duke of York all the time. That ship is WAY better in doing this then Missouri.

How you going to hit a charging German BB with hydro on?

[creamgravy]

19 minutes ago, DFens_666 said:

It is very hard to deal

 

It's actually very easy to deal with a Kamikaze, just sail away.

 

Only slow, 20 knot BBs, have a problem with those 7km torpedoes when there's no one else around to spot, but fast/manoeuvrable BBs like GC and Kongo should have zero issues dealing with them.

[Spellfire40]

4 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Kurfürst cant go there? Conqueror? Whats new in that, that Cruisers cant do the same stuff as BBs?

 

 

Again - how is Missouri different there? I rush DDs with Duke of York all the time. That ship is WAY better in doing this then Missouri.

How you going to hit a charging German BB with hydro on?

You comparing t10BBs vs T9? and GKF has such bad hadling that it often cant dodge Torps piked up by its hydro. Conq dont work well in close combat either and the overall dispersion sucks.

And yes a German Hydro has the same efect but an US radar has a greater pushback efect (while the german sonar beat it in duration. Neither can do the job with no suport vs more than the caping DD.

thogh Missouri can get closer. And im not a fan of hydro on BBs either.......how about 1 min shell imunity on dds per click of a butom so tehy can fade back into stealth when tehy are spoted? Bad game mechanics are bad game mechanics. BBs are nether spoter or should have inbuild Torpedo detection systems. 

 

[ForlornSailor]

46 minutes ago, Spellfire40 said:

You comparing t10BBs vs T9?

 

Last time I checked, DoY sits on T7. Not that your remark about T10 vs T9 changes anything. I could have said FdG or Bismarck, which would invalidate your next point about bad handling aswell. btw. 2 days ago I tried to stop a rushing NELSON (you know, slow, bad handling, no hydro) with torps, which didnt work, since he pushing exactly my direction so I had to torp on his nose. Zero hits.

 

53 minutes ago, Spellfire40 said:

And im not a fan of hydro on BBs either.......how about 1 min shell imunity on dds per click of a butom so tehy can fade back into stealth when tehy are spoted? Bad game mechanics are bad game mechanics. BBs are nether spoter or should have inbuild Torpedo detection systems. 

 

I think here we get to the bottom of what you really want to say - you have a problem in general with defensiv mechanism on BBs. And thats not a point against Missouri at all then. Missouri cant detect torps like german BBs or DoY can, which Ive already said. And, to be even more direct: These days, I dont think there is any other option then to give BBs a tool to defend themself. With the lack of teamplay missing, there is no other option then to allow each class to deal with all kind of threads better by himself. Harugumo anyone?

[Toivia]

Ok, guys, now you start claiming Missouri is not OP either. This is getting ridiculous...

I mean fine, you don't consider Kron and Alaska stronger than regular T9 cruisers, @Riselotte. I disagree. Kron (and supposedly Alaska) are way more resilient than other T9 cruisers. Against BBs (HP, similar or better armor), against DDs (HP, Kron good torp belt). Only against cruisers, they end up being similarly sustainable (fires will do more, but they still have to eat through a lot more hp). They pack that BB firepower (granted, without overmatch - except RN CLs). And they really are strong counters to DDs with their radar and overmatching guns (only at ridiculously short ranges will HE on regular cruisers be more deadly), not only thanks to their guns, but thanks to the fact that they can survive multiple torp hits from the panicked DD (or you know, survive the hail of fire from the DD's allies) and still live and radar and shoot (like Missouri).

Unlike what you claim, they barely have worse concealment and larger size than regular cruisers (and I already noted that yesterday upthread), so they are not that easier to hit.

 

One area where you are absolutely right is AA. Kronshtadt is defenceless against CVs if you don't take Defensive fire (you can and if CVs get played, should). Then again, the large HP pool and good torp belt mitigates the damage somewhat. But Alaska has no AA issue at all.

 

The large cruisers may not be as OP as some of the lower tier sealclubbing machines, but they still are powercreep. I heartily recommend getting them and you'll see yourself.

(Oh, and on a personnal note, I do consider Moskva very, very strong at Tier 10, that's why I grind the soviet line despite originally not wanting to grind anything soviet. Worcester is OP as hell. Zao is very strong, but also has huge weaknesses.)

[ForlornSailor]

2 minutes ago, Toivia said:

Ok, guys, now you start claiming Missouri is not OP either. This is getting ridiculous...

 

Missouri is not OP. There. I said it. By your logic, we need to add the following BBs to the list of OP ships:

- Bismarck

- FdG

- Kurfürst

- Duke of York

- Iowa

- KGV

 

List goes on. Shall we talk if Fuso is OP? No smoke cruiser has a chance against me in Fuso - hell Belfast cant even reach me from his smoke world and I can cita him to next heavens. Fuso OP?

 

7 minutes ago, Toivia said:

(Oh, and on a personnal note, I do consider Moskva very, very strong at Tier 10, that's why I grind the soviet line

 

Well gl, you are in for a surprise. Although with the latest bow-armor buff it became waaay easier to play.

[Toivia]

15 minutes ago, ForlornSailor said:

 

Missouri is not OP. There. I said it. By your logic, we need to add the following BBs to the list of OP ships:

- Bismarck

- FdG

- Kurfürst

- Duke of York

- Iowa

- KGV

 

List goes on. Shall we talk if Fuso is OP? No smoke cruiser has a chance against me in Fuso - hell Belfast cant even reach me from his smoke world and I can cita him to next heavens. Fuso OP?

 

 

Well gl, you are in for a surprise. Although with the latest bow-armor buff it became waaay easier to play.

Absolute nonsense you write there. Duke of York is miles worse than base KGV (that one could be considered too strong). Bismarck and FDG are struggling hard given the very campy meta. Iowa is a bad version of Missouri. Kurfurst is better than Bis and FDG, but still mostly a damage sponge.

 

And I can hardly be surprised by the Moskva. I only started the grind after trying it out (and it even got buffed since then).

[DFens_666]

1 hour ago, Spellfire40 said:

The point is Missouri can go places were bo cruiser others than Stalingrad or moskwa would survive more than 60 seconds. cruisers who get near DDs are most of teh time the closest target for any oposing cruiser or BB. plus what is a dd gona do agist a bow on charging BB ? hiting 1-2 torps on the bow? Its not about the radar its about the radar on a blatform wich is VERY hard to kill compared to any other platform.

 

Even BBs dont handle focus fire too well - Conq ofc does a bit better Also compared to other Radar ships, you have a harder time pulling away. Many ppl complain all the time, how radar cruisers sit behind islands, being invulnerable to shells because of said island, and how the DD will just melt by enemy focus fire. Then we have a ship like Missouri, which has to take risks, or better, which CAN handle the risk, and thats not ok either?

Ive been in those situations multiple times. Sometimes the enemy DD didnt die because my team didnt help me, but i lost half my health. Radar doesnt automatically kill anything.

 

1 hour ago, creamgravy said:

It's actually very easy to deal with a Kamikaze, just sail away.

 

Only slow, 20 knot BBs, have a problem with those 7km torpedoes when there's no one else around to spot, but fast/manoeuvrable BBs like GC and Kongo should have zero issues dealing with them.

 

How does this win the game

If i have to kill it, then you cant do it. Unless he [edited] up... why would he tho? Any BB/Cruiser is still slower than he is, so even trying to outcap one doesnt work, he will always be faster.

 

7 minutes ago, Toivia said:

Ok, guys, now you start claiming Missouri is not OP either. This is getting ridiculous...

 

So why is it OP? You can tell me.

Musashi - which isnt considered to be too good by many ppl, has just better stats than Missouri. Musashi must be even more OP then?

 

7 minutes ago, Toivia said:

I mean fine, you don't consider Kron and Alaska stronger than regular T9 cruisers, @Riselotte. I disagree. Kron (and supposedly Alaska) are way more resilient than other T9 cruisers. Against BBs (HP, similar or better armor), against DDs (HP, Kron good torp belt). Only against cruisers, they end up being similarly sustainable (fires will do more, but they still have to eat through a lot more hp). They pack that BB firepower (granted, without overmatch - except RN CLs). And they really are strong counters to DDs with their radar and overmatching guns (only at ridiculously short ranges will HE on regular cruisers be more deadly), not only thanks to their guns, but thanks to the fact that they can survive multiple torp hits from the panicked DD (or you know, survive the hail of fire from the DD's allies) and still live and radar and shoot (like Missouri).

Unlike what you claim, they barely have worse concealment and larger size than regular cruisers (and I already noted that yesterday upthread), so they are not that easier to hit.

 

One area where you are absolutely right is AA. Kronshtadt is defenceless against CVs if you don't take Defensive fire (you can and if CVs get played, should). Then again, the large HP pool and good torp belt mitigates the damage somewhat. But Alaska has no AA issue at all.

 

The large cruisers may not be as OP as some of the lower tier sealclubbing machines, but they still are powercreep. I heartily recommend getting them and you'll see yourself.

(Oh, and on a personnal note, I do consider Moskva very, very strong at Tier 10, that's why I grind the soviet line despite originally not wanting to grind anything soviet. Worcester is OP as hell. Zao is very strong, but also has huge weaknesses.)

 

I dont think Kronshtadt is OP. Alaska i dont know yet. If you have typical T8-T10 MM with Kronshtadt, it doesnt really matter too much imo. With plating 25mm all around, it cant bounce any BB shells (except Scharn and Lyon). I have had one T7-T9 match so far, where Kron cound be considered OP -> Only 2 T9 ships, enemies had Missouri/Kron we had FDG + some "normal" T9 Cruiser. That was bad. Those 2 raped our whole team.

This is a problem with MM, not so much with the Ship. In a pure T9 game, i wouldnt consider Kron to be OP. Yes, it can take a bit more of a beating, but with the worst concealment, it also has a harder time escaping when necessary.

ALso Kron doesnt have any help against Torps - unless you are not running DefAA, which would make you totaly defensless vs CVs.

And Kron has very vulnerable Citadel infront of the turrets -> can be overmatched by BB shells.

Granted, alaska doesnt have most of this negative stuff, and is immune to citadels close combat, but we will see if its OP or not, dont want to comment yet.

 

On another note:

Yes i agree, this mixing up classes is something which is bad for the game and i dont like it either.

I think we could do without, but WG obviously wants to make ppl spend more money so thats why we have to have "different" stuff all the time. French ships didnt work out with only speedboost only - so now they get MBRB - which is imo OP af