Fire, run with me !

[TataLup]

Here we got yet another patch not addressing the main lapse of this otherwise very much conform to reality game. Ships are real like, ocean, hills, weather too.... fire is anti physics, anti-reality, aggravating phenomenon.

If a navy whatever ( let it be just a cook) was told a 3.6 kilo 100 mm shell can destroy a 50000 ton battleship just because the damage control party is exhausted after extinguishing another 100 mm shell fire...

... well you may have him on your conscience as the guy will probably die of laughter.

On a serious note, fire is a fact of war but small guns produce small fire that can incapacitate a short range AA or two, a higher caliber may start a fire rendering the use of a turret impossible thus disabling it, and delaying any mechanical repairs and loading till fire is off.

In any case cannot damage a ship hull. See historical facts ( check Yorktown CV).

Beside physical inadvertence the way fire is handled change the very nature of the game.

Let's forget about Tirpitz, Iowa, Lexington.  Let's get catapults and call the game "Triremes & Greek fire".

I really hope a serious rethinking of the way fire affects game play will come soon (patch 6.0 maybe ?)

 

 

Motto:

Don't say: Up! before you jump.

Don't say it even after you jumped.

Take a look where you have landed first 

[shamelesscreature]

Which alternative game mechanic would you suggest to balance BBs?

[ColonelPete]

Here we got yet another patch not addressing the main lapse of this otherwise very much conform to reality game. Ships are real like, ocean, hills, weather too.... fire is anti physics, anti-reality, aggravating phenomenon.

If a navy whatever ( let it be just a cook) was told a 3.6 kilo 100 mm shell can destroy a 50000 ton battleship just because the damage control party is exhausted after extinguishing another 100 mm shell fire...

... well you may have him on your conscience as the guy will probably die of laughter.

On a serious note, fire is a fact of war but small guns produce small fire that can incapacitate a short range AA or two, a higher caliber may start a fire rendering the use of a turret impossible thus disabling it, and delaying any mechanical repairs and loading till fire is off.

In any case cannot damage a ship hull. See historical facts ( check Yorktown CV).

Beside physical inadvertence the way fire is handled change the very nature of the game.

Let's forget about Tirpitz, Iowa, Lexington.  Let's get catapults and call the game "Triremes & Greek fire".

I really hope a serious rethinking of the way fire affects game play will come soon (patch 6.0 maybe ?)

 

 

Motto:

Don't say: Up! before you jump.

Don't say it even after you jumped.

Take a look where you have landed first 

 

You can burn down a BB with a match. A 100mm shell should not have any problems.

But a BB captain that cannot control the fires on his ships in WoWs, should go back to training.

[TataLup]

Which alternative game mechanic would you suggest to balance BBs?

 

So to balance BB devastating shell concussion on CA you suggest what ?

Don't DD, CA,CV have torpedoes ?

and by the way CA fire rate is ballance enough  And DD gunships. you should ask the BB I gave 38K damage with the Farragut. how did he like it ( it took an additional 10k from fires though)

 

 

 

[TataLup]

 

You can burn down a BB with a match. A 100mm shell should not have any problems.

But a BB captain that cannot control the fires on his ships in WoWs, should go back to training.

 

Really ? and you are a colonel ?  I seriously doubt it. You seem more a kid who do ( did) not like to read

[GoT_PcDealer]

 

Really ? and you are a colonel ?  I seriously doubt it. You seem more a kid who do ( did) not like to read

 

I see someone complaining about fires, that can't be controlled (what can be done) in your opinion. You accuse somebody of being a kid. If the user is or not, it doesn't matter. Stop trolling and learn to play. If you get shot at by a ship setting you on fire, you don't have to use fire control immediately. Unless you have three fires at once. Disengage and use natural obsticals or concealment. Or kill the ship which is shooting at you. Don't blame others for your faulty gameplay.

[ulcusrodens]

Here we got yet another patch not addressing the main lapse of this otherwise very much conform to reality game. Ships are real like, ocean, hills, weather too.... fire is anti physics, anti-reality, aggravating phenomenon.

If a navy whatever ( let it be just a cook) was told a 3.6 kilo 100 mm shell can destroy a 50000 ton battleship just because the damage control party is exhausted after extinguishing another 100 mm shell fire...

... well you may have him on your conscience as the guy will probably die of laughter.

On a serious note, fire is a fact of war but small guns produce small fire that can incapacitate a short range AA or two, a higher caliber may start a fire rendering the use of a turret impossible thus disabling it, and delaying any mechanical repairs and loading till fire is off.

In any case cannot damage a ship hull. See historical facts ( check Yorktown CV).

Beside physical inadvertence the way fire is handled change the very nature of the game.

Let's forget about Tirpitz, Iowa, Lexington.  Let's get catapults and call the game "Triremes & Greek fire".

I really hope a serious rethinking of the way fire affects game play will come soon (patch 6.0 maybe ?)

 

 

Motto:

Don't say: Up! before you jump.

Don't say it even after you jumped.

Take a look where you have landed first 

 

and what do you suggest?

take my Budyonny, for example. the only way it has to damage a BB is firing lots of HE, with often depressing results. like 90 hits for 15k damage. if not for that additional 30k fire damage, my BB kill count would be very, very small.

a tier VI BB, by the way, needs 2 hits to kill me.

this is a game, and every choice by developers has to do with balance, and not with strict adeherence to realism. 

[shamelesscreature]

So to balance BB devastating shell concussion on CA you suggest what ?

 

Not nerfing CAs (and even more so CLs) would be a good start!

 

Don't DD, CA,CV have torpedoes ?

 

Many CAs don't, and most which do have to get into suicidal range to use them. 

 

And DD gunships. you should ask the BB I gave 38K damage with the Farragut. how did he like it ( it took an additional 10k from fires though)

 

Yeah that works against low tier BBs with 16 mm of armour. Not against high tier BBs with 25 or 32 mm. DD-calibre HE usually fails to penetrate that and does no damage, hence you rely on fires a lot more. 

[ColonelPete]

 

Really ? and you are a colonel ?  I seriously doubt it. You seem more a kid who do ( did) not like to read

 

Any arguments for that or are you just venting?

[StringWitch]

this [...] very much conform to reality game.

 

wat

 

Is there a kind of "X's Law" type thing for this realism cherry-picking? It comes up a lot in discussions about pretty much any video game.

Launching floatplanes during combat (not to mention recovering them while moving) isn't realistic either.

Nor are the gun ranges, timescale, or size and formation of landmasses involved in this game.

Nor were air attacks and surface engagements simultaneous (except during landings but that's not how naval battles are presented in this game), and AA positions being manned under these circumstances would probably get the crews killed very quickly.

Et caetera.

 

So honestly I doubt your problem with fire in this game is how realistic its depiction is. If you really hate fire just get Basics of Survivability + Fire Prevention + High Alert on your captain, and equip the ship with Damage Control System Modifications 1 & 2 (if applicable for her tier) and the premium Damage Control consumable (plus premium Damage Repair if a BB). You see, there are a lot of things you can do to reduce your carbon monoxide intake; it's up to you to take advantage of the game mechanics for your own benefit, like your enemies are doing.

[TataLup]

How sad...

I see there are many who do read, but do not understand, and many who are just bullies by there nature probably, their only replying in the "You are an incapable, go learn how to  cope with the bad aspects of this awesome game".

The later I simply ignore, for first category I repeat what I propose here: 

1. HE should keep its concussion damage on modules (except steering which we all saw in WG videos have alternate command room in citadel)

2. HE should set fires - smaller for low calibers bigger for larger ones. Fires should make artillery in the affected area incapacitated even if did not sustained concussion damage.

3. repairs for the concussion damage should not start until fire is out.

 

Does this explain how fire balances CA & DD over BBs ( even better than now) ?

For the rest of detractors I hope to see you in a map running to shelter behind an island to use damage repair in your  20 knots 30 sec steering BB while a cruiser, preferably an Atlanta, spits hell on you from behind an island.

 

[ColonelPete]

Happens only extremly rarely to me and is no problem.

[StringWitch]

How sad...

I see there are many who do read, but do not understand, and many who are just bullies by there nature probably, their only replying in the "You are an incapable, go learn how to  cope with the bad aspects of this awesome game".

The later I simply ignore, for first category I repeat what I propose here: 

1. HE should keep its concussion damage on modules (except steering which we all saw in WG videos have alternate command room in citadel)

2. HE should set fires - smaller for low calibers bigger for larger ones. Fires should make artillery in the affected area incapacitated even if did not sustained concussion damage.

3. repairs for the concussion damage should not start until fire is out.

 

Does this explain how fire balances CA & DD over BBs ( even better than now) ?

For the rest of detractors I hope to see you in a map running to shelter behind an island to use damage repair in your  20 knots 30 sec steering BB while a cruiser, preferably an Atlanta, spits hell on you from behind an island.

 

 

You come across as rather salty in the OP (and at the end of this post), and the post isn't very coherent; of course people aren't going to take you seriously.

 

1. The vulnerability of the steering room varies highly with each ship. Many large IJN ships had inadequate rudder protection that HE probably could cause harm to.

 

2. That's an interesting idea, and would make shot placement a more important consideration with HE, but I don't think battleships (a class designed to take damage and keep going) should suffer significant reductions in firepower because there's a fire near their 1 and 2 turrets. Those with less than 10 guns are already unpleasant at times. If fire only incapacitated open mounts, now I think that might actually be worth considering. It could give some weaker ships like Ognevoi an actual advantage of sorts due to their fully enclosed turrets. I do feel this is too much of a specific realism detail though, for the purposes of a game that only really amounts to a third person shooter with ships instead of soldiers.

 

3. They should try it out in supertest. A ship that repairs to hang on with 2k health while under fire with two fires on deck makes a pretty glaring case of Critical Existence Failure.

[TataLup]

 

and what do you suggest?

take my Budyonny, for example. the only way it has to damage a BB is firing lots of HE, with often depressing results. like 90 hits for 15k damage. if not for that additional 30k fire damage, my BB kill count would be very, very small.

a tier VI BB, by the way, needs 2 hits to kill me.

this is a game, and every choice by developers has to do with balance, and not with strict adeherence to realism. 

 

 

"this is a game, and every choice by developers has to do with balance, and not with strict adeherence to realism. "

 

Speaking of ballance it would be interesting to have a WoWs statistic : How many BB sunk by DD vs how many DD sunk by BB !

 

my suggestion is to ponder the fire  damage by the weight of the shell

"The percentage of shell weight taken up by its explosive fill increased steadily throughout the 20th Century. Less than 10% was usual in the first few decades, by World War II leading designs were around 15%. However, British researchers in that war identified 25% as being the optimal design for anti-personnel purposes," says the Wikipedia.

Also from that source: "A typical 155 mm (6.1 in) shell weighs about 50 kg, a common 203 mm (8 in) shell about 100 kg, a concrete demolition 203 mm (8 in) shell 146 kg, a 280 mm (11 in) battleship shell about 300 kg, and a 460 mm (18 in) battleship shell over 1,500 kg. "

From another source A 100 mm artilery shell weight is about 3.5 Kg

So yes ! A boudionny shell of 50 kg packing some 10 Kg of incendiary substance do in reality and should do in game a much bigger fire than a 3.5 kg shell packing 0.7 kf incendiary stuff. And a bigger fire is supposed to do more DPS than a punny one.

My point is that with the rate of fire of small guns their fire damage is greatly overpowered. it should be reduced ! 

Arithmetic say:

Gunboat - 5 guns at 5 sec x 1kg incendiary substance deliver  60 kg incendiary substance per minute.

Boudionny - 9 guns at 15 sec x 10 kg incendiary substance deliver 360 kg incendiary substance per minute.

So fire damage per second of the DD should be 1/6 of the firedamage per second of CA

Figures were largelly rounded for the sake of teh e=xercise. It is to Devs to find the fair balance, which is far from  assured today.

[lup3s]

My point is that with the rate of fire of small guns their fire damage is greatly overpowered. it should be reduced !

 

per shell, lower calibre guns have a lower chance of setting fire than higher calibre guns (there might be some exceptions but I can't think of any right now)

the higher RoF of lower calibre guns increases the chance to set fire in a certain amount of time, but I don't think it's "greatly overpowered"

I think you'll still have a higher chance of setting fire with higher calibre guns in a certain amount of time

 

btw, if I'm not mistaken, the chance of setting fire is independent with each shell (i.e. if you have 10% chance of fire and you've hit 9 shells without setting a fire, the 10th shell will also have a 10% chance of setting fire, not 100%)

 

 

Speaking of ballance it would be interesting to have a WoWs statistic : How many BB sunk by DD vs how many DD sunk by BB !

 

in my (limited) experience, more BBs are sunk by the torpedoes of a DD than fires started by a DD

 

if I'm sailing a BB I worry a lot more about torpedoes than getting the occasional fire(s); the HE shells and fire(s) don't do as much damage as torpedoes, and light damage can be repaired more

 

you'll have to fire a lot of HE salvoes with your DD to sink a full health BB (if nothing else is shooting it and you're not using your torpedoes)

on the other hand, a BB only needs 2 or 3 good HE/AP salvoes to sink a full health DD

 

 

but I do agree it might be interesting to see a statistic of kills (/ deaths) per class against (/ by) other classes

[ollonborre]

Learning fire management, not exposing yourself if possible to multiple HE spammers, killing the HE spammers quickly and using your heals smartly and you just negated most of the fire damage you take in a game. 

 

Problem is that most BB players instantly smash the Damage Control as soon as they get one tiny fire while on full HP, and 30 seconds later they get turned into a barbeque because they just let the fire stack.

[TataLup]

 

 lup3s    wrote:

"you'll have to fire a lot of HE salvoes with your DD to sink a full health BB (if nothing else is shooting it and you're not using your torpedoes)

on the other hand, a BB only needs 2 or 3 good HE/AP salvoes to sink a full health DD"

 

 

 

 

 

To this and to many other I say : You have to set 3 fires just twice on a BB with DD to sink it !   Or you have no clue how to play this game.

If the BB maneuvers really well and  shoots very carefully it may have sunk the DD in 2  not in 3 salvos.

 

 

 

 

So in your own words, the battle unfolds like this :

This without considering many Dd can shoot continuously  while remaining concealed thus taking no damage at all . And that any player that is worth of the name Captain will play an opportunistic aproach to a BB that is under the gunfire of a DD ( If he is not situated behind the DD he'll know the BB has no guns toward him and will gladly spend some HEs of its own on it)

ACT 1  - duration 30 sec

DD shoots you and you shoot back but usually the first salvo does not deal significant damage as normal BB operation uses AP so more likely you get over-penetrations.

Result: after 29 seconds  = you are on fire and you are now burning in 3 places. (If you are going to tell DD can't set 3 fires in 30 sec. go back to the red line above.)

So you have to use the repair gizmo.

ACT2 - takes next 30 sec + time you burn out and sink...

It goes just as ACT 1 only ends with you looking the sky through some water as you have no repair kit to use.

Take note that the above is an ideal scenario, you sink the DD with the second salvo and with no planes, CAs or other DD around to spit more damage over time hits like torpedoes. ( I know, I know .. I am a poor player and I should wait till I get 3 floodings also, before panicking and hitting the damage control button  )

 

 

SPECIAL NOTE

All this frustration arose whil playing Ranked battles mostly, and of course the Random ones with te same BB up to T7. Probably in T9 and T10 fire damage is the same and its ratio is pretty much negligible, but in a T7 Colorado 2 fires burn1/3 of your HP before you get the 3rd. the second time you are on fire you die

 

 

[ColonelPete]

 A single fire causes the ship to lose 0.3% of fighting capability per second for battleships, cruisers and destroyers, and 0.4% of fighting capability per second for carriers.

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/55891-fire-run-with-me/

 

3 fires mean 0.9% damage per second from fire. To burn down a BB you need 3 fires for around 1 minute and 40 seconds. How is a BB supposed to burn down in a minute if damage control gives at least 10 seconds fire immunity and the repair party gives you back at least 14% of your health?

Your math does not work out.

[Ictogan]

A DD would rarely pose a real threat to a cruiser or battleship IRL. However in game all classes are balanced to be equally powerful.

[lup3s]

 

To this and to many other I say : You have to set 3 fires just twice on a BB with DD to sink it !   Or you have no clue how to play this game.

If the BB maneuvers really well and  shoots very carefully it may have sunk the DD in 2  not in 3 salvos.

 

 

Then it seems I have no clue at all to play this game as I've survived triple fires more than once in my BB.

 

[Joergensen]

And this post shows why WG need another way of communicating problems and solutions. Here is a good feed back supported by the massive amount of cruisers in battles and low number of BBs in battles, and what does happen ?

Well a lot of nobrainers comes with [edited]arguements without real facts and drowns the discussion.

 

Its true, fire is way to effective,,, and cruisers in general are to powerfull, and they are not used in battles to take on destroyers and other cruisers, nay ..they go for the easy pray, slow BBs

This is a FACT shown by the every day match maker , where u normally get 2 battles with CVs every 16 battle , about 4 out of 10 battles with 5 destroyers .

 

The problem with bad MM and problem with to many cruisers and destroyers did come as an indirect effect of the buff of AA to insane levels, many of the guys that before did use carriers are now seeking other "main" classes, my self has swapped to destroyers, because this class is at its best without eny pesky CVs to spot em ;)

 

The problem with Cruisers VS battle ships (tier 1-9) did start when the cruisers with battle ship penetrating AP did come, now a cruiser can get a BB no mather what if AP dont work burn it, and if u get close use torps .

 

So the fire itself isnt a problem, but the problem is the ships causing the fires are used in a way they wasnt supose to ;@)

 

 

(did skip a bit explanation about the indirect effect of the drop in CV players and lack of CAs hunting other CAs and DDS, but hell i bet it wont make eny difference )

 

[shamelesscreature]

404 - coherence not found. 

[anonym_1YeUldJS8pjx]

Here we got yet another patch not addressing the main lapse of this otherwise very much conform to reality game. Ships are real like, ocean, hills, weather too.... fire is anti physics, anti-reality, aggravating phenomenon.If a navy whatever ( let it be just a cook) was told a 3.6 kilo 100 mm shell can destroy a 50000 ton battleship just because the damage control party is exhausted after extinguishing another 100 mm shell fire...... well you may have him on your conscience as the guy will probably die of laughter.

So you want it more realistic? Things like these?

• engines, rudder, guns will be unrepairable during the time of a battle
• ships blowing up after a single AP shell hit (Hood) (well, we have detonation in the game)
• a single Torpedo hit destroys the rudder for the rest of the game (Bismarck)
• a single bomb hit causes a fire that can't be extinguished at all (Gneisenau)
• torp hits that cause flooding and fire same time(Taiho). Which do exceed the capabilities of the dmage control party I guess...
• and last but not least - forget all those non existent BB, CA gun fights and make CVs the superior class in the game which will send their planes from outside the map.

 

See something? It's a game, not a simulation. Balance is the main factor in it.

I don't have major problems with fires. Yes, sometimes I lose a ship due to a fire. But "sometimes" enemy loses ships due to my gunfire    - it's part of the game. Love it, leave it or change it. But please don't rant in forum and compare a gamemechanic of an arcade game to realism.

[Fred3n]

I think it is pretty balanced, I rarely burn to death, but as it so happens one of those rare cases was yesturday. I was chased by 5 CA´s against my Kongo, i had no chance and burned to death. Its frustrating as hell, but i got my revenge in the next match

 

[iJoby]

I think you will find that if a BB is pounded with 203mm HE shells every 7 seconds, it will be hard to control fires on many parts of the ships deck no matter how good your fire control system is, Most CA's will set you on fire in 3 to 4 different areas and then use AP to damage AA and Secondary guns.

A good BB player will know exactly what course to take to avoid too much heavy torture, for example, stay close to Friendly CA's and other BB for support and retreat until damage can be repaired.