The CV Captains Cabin

[El2aZeR]

12 hours ago, LongJohn_ said:

How is the T8 bracket these days?

 

GZ

A ridiculous glass cannon so to speak. Ludicrous strike potential but low reserves and practically no air control. If you go up against an experienced CV captain in a Shokaku/Enterprise with her you're almost guaranteed to get farmed for KotA achievements.

Though there aren't many of those around, explaining why she's doing so well in randoms.

 

Shokaku

Still the staple, most well rounded T8 CV. Highest amount of flexibility at the cost of excelling at almost nothing. Air control is good but not as good as Enterprise, strikes hurt but not as much as GZ, highest scouting potential due to having 2 expendable DBs.

Don't take the AS setup tho unless you're playing ranked/competitive.

 

Enterprise

Practically an AS CV with strike potential to back it up. Stupidly high fighter reserves, but downtiered fighters and low bomber reserves require very careful micromanagement. AP bombs are meme, TB spread is awkward but workable. Possibly the most effective T8 CV when in the hands of a true expert. Rather weak when captained by someone average.

 

Lexington

lol no

Okay, the 1/1/2 setup was admittedly a very welcome buff, but it's still far from enough to make Lex competitive against her contemporaries in any way. She his still lacking in every single aspect of CV play, be it air control, strike or scouting potential.

The only real bright sides to her is that she can take tech tree USN AP bombs, which are more meme than the ones on Enterprise (due to being hilariously accurate with manual drop), and that you're still gonna do fairly well if you're an experienced CV captain due to the large majority of the playerbase being braindead.

[LongJohn_]

 

Well just thinking. 

 

I've played a lot with other underdog Ranger and its a keeper for me. But overall... 

 

Been grinding some shiplines like IJN BBs and KM DDs but not that much success. So how do you do it? Do you hammer your head to the wall trying new things or just remain in comfortzone and play the ships and lines you really like?

[LongJohn_]

 

Midway keeps haunting me. I guess the only way it to get one. What can I expect?

[El2aZeR]

2 hours ago, LongJohn_ said:

What can I expect?

 

A lot of pain and suffering. Both Lexington and Essex are sub par compared to their contemporaries. It is honestly physically painful to play them when you know what everything else is capable of.

 

In terms of raw potential Midway is inferior to Haku in pretty much every way. Air control, striking power, scouting ability, flexibility, all favor Haku.

However Midway is also a lot easier to play, thus kinda striking a balance between her and Haku. You need to be an expert at CV play to unlock Haku's full potential, requiring a lot of map awareness and micromanagement comparatively speaking that most people simply are incapable of mustering. Midway on the other hand forces you to play a far more relaxing style with fewer squads and longer service times.

That and AP bombs are hilarious.

[LongJohn_]

6 hours ago, El2aZeR said:

 

A lot of pain and suffering. Both Lexington and Essex are sub par compared to their contemporaries. It is honestly physically painful to play them when you know what everything else is capable of.

 

In terms of raw potential Midway is inferior to Haku in pretty much every way. Air control, striking power, scouting ability, flexibility, all favor Haku.

However Midway is also a lot easier to play, thus kinda striking a balance between her and Haku. You need to be an expert at CV play to unlock Haku's full potential, requiring a lot of map awareness and micromanagement comparatively speaking that most people simply are incapable of mustering. Midway on the other hand forces you to play a far more relaxing style with fewer squads and longer service times.

That and AP bombs are hilarious.

 

I have unlocked Midway and free xpd best planes ages ago so I dont have to touch previous ships. Just buy one and retrain my 17pt cap on it. 

 

How is the MM and playermass up there? From my recollection T8-9 was maybe 80% nobs and donkeys, presently at T7 its 70-90% easy atm. Against the enemy CV I mean. MM is totally different mather. 

 

Lots of AA clusterf#cks at T10?

[El2aZeR]

2 hours ago, LongJohn_ said:

Lots of AA clusterf#cks at T10?

 

Eh, kinda. Lots of cruisers not running DFAA, hence why AP bombs are meme. Not something you need to be particularly concerned about if you know how to handle it.

You're bound to run into unicum AA divs in T10 more often tho in my experience.

[Bainsmit_steel]

And if you play against AA cancer division and you are alone your chances for victory falls drastically...that is to my opinion the biggest problem in T10 for CV play...Strong AA can be countered in some ways if all players are solo, AA cancer division can not be countered so efficiently...

[LongJohn_]

 

It sounds like typical top (T10) problem in any shiptype and even game. World of Tanks suffers the same T10 problem. 2-3 unicums in certain tanks and they can take on couple teams on their own if needs to be...

 

But this is also one thing I cant get rid of in any shiptype. Same unicum division problem with DDs, cruisers and BBs as well. Goes with the game. 

 

This is actually one reason why I've considered my entire playing philosophy. Is it better to stay lower tiers having fun...?

[Bainsmit_steel]

Yes and no. The main difference in CV play and other ships play is that your play style is different from other ships and in essence if they shut down CV they have massive advantage and influence on the whole game globaly..other divisions can have massive impact but it can be countered more efficiently and at least to my opinion does not have such global influence as AA CV divisions. 

Basically it should be done what all games do solo players should be separated from division players...

 

Also in T10 people are the most rude and salty...

 

 

[El2aZeR]

3 hours ago, Bainsmit_steel said:

Basically it should be done what all games do solo players should be separated from division players

 

I know of exactly one game that actually does this (and it doesn't even have team games as its focus).

And that is because people are expected to work together in a team game regardless of whether they enter the match as a squad or alone.

 

Besides, with current player numbers this is infeasible for WoWs anyway.

[Bainsmit_steel]

With low population that might be the case that it is not viable to do the separation but regarding other claim that no other game or just a few do that  do that I would say that many mayor games do that LoL, HOTS...so it is far from one...

 

What is expected and what is are two different matters also even if people do cooperate when they are solo in game it can never be as effective as divisions as divisions use coordinating tools which are not viable to solo player (voice communication for one...and even if there are no voice they can pre define what and when each member will do...which is again not possible when you are solo).

 

I do not say that beating division is impossible but it does decrease significantly CVs odds for victory (given if CV players have same skill cap) and it is particularity bad for CV play as CV is global power apart all other ships which are at best local one...so on that way basically the whole team suffers a lot.

 

So if you are super duper CV player you will beat average cancer aa disivion alone but if you face unicrum player on another side with aa cancer division you will not beat enemy cv alone...not a chance in 90% of cases...

 

 

[El2aZeR]

26 minutes ago, Bainsmit_steel said:

I would say that many mayor games do that LoL, HOTS

 

Funny, because last time I checked they don't. Team MM is only provided by third party hosts, otherwise it is perfectly normal for a premade team to be matched against random individuals.

 

26 minutes ago, Bainsmit_steel said:

So if you are super duper CV player you will beat average cancer aa disivion alone but if you face unicrum player on another side with aa cancer division you will not beat enemy cv alone

 

And why should you be able to? This is a team game. The players that work together have a better chance at victory than some guys playing in a selfish manner. That's not unfair.

What would actually be unfair is if you could beat said players all on your own (without them making huge mistakes).

 

As a CV you can always play defensively and lock the enemy CV out of the game no matter how good his AA support is. Neither of you then has much influence on the match beyond spotting, putting your fates into the hands of the others. And if your team crumbles because of two guys, you deserve to lose. Again, that isn't unfair. It is the exact opposite of unfair. This is precisely what balance is about.

Balance is to provide contestants (being the two teams in this case) with equal chances outside of the human factor, because the human factor is what is supposed to decide matches.

[Bainsmit_steel]

I will say that you have a right to your opinion just like i have at mine. The thing is that as consolization is approaching nothing will be matter until then...so then we will moan about some other staff :).

 

For HOTS for example you have 1-2 player que and team que 3+ but as i said it is not important....you will not change your mind nor will I :)...

[El2aZeR]

37 minutes ago, Bainsmit_steel said:

I will say that you have a right to your opinion just like i have at mine.

 

Except that what I have stated regarding balance is not an opinion but a game design principle that is universally true for every competitive game, be it a virtual past time or real life sport. There is not a single successful team game out there that aims to eliminate the human factor, as that goes against what games are supposed to be about in the first place: Interaction.

 

Also I just realized you were talking about Heroes of the Storm and not Heart of the Swarm. Is that game even still alive?

[Commander_Cornflakes]

Vor 4 Stunden, Bainsmit_steel sagte:

What is expected and what is are two different matters also even if people do cooperate when they are solo in game it can never be as effective as divisions as divisions use coordinating tools which are not viable to solo player (voice communication for one...and even if there are no voice they can pre define what and when each member will do...which is again not possible when you are solo).

There is an ingame voice chat for non division players as well. Nobody uses it, but that's hardly the fault of players using divisions ^^

And there is still the ingame chat and quick commands that can replace voice chat to 90% anyway.

[LongJohn_]

 

Okey. Midway in port with full upgrades and just got the captain retrained. All games with retraining though but I dont think thats a big dfference... 

 

So 21 games with 33% wr, avg pr and 107k avg dmg. Abysmal, absolute horror. 

 

Ups:

 

+ stacking damage if enemy team allows it is easy - 100k just like that. 

... Thats pretty much it. 

 

Downs:

 

- Absolutely horrible gameplay. Am I really just this bad at this level or do I try something totally wrong... 33% WR is abysmal. 

- some games were lost by the team and I might be top of the board but still couldnt make enough difference

- also met some AA divisions which are predictable and almost sure losses. 4-6 min and battle is over... 

 

So what do I do wrong. Maybe the worst thing is fighter control. If enemy CV isnt a total noob I get my butt kicked like no tomorrow. Midway or Haku, doesnt mather. Map awareness is inadequate and with poor fighterplay I cant protect friendlies.

 

How should I play this? 

 

My present old style is basically outdamage the enemy CV. This is the gamestyle I've used to up to old strike Essex and I really enjoy. So fighters are primary thing to protect own strikes and maybe then something else. This tactic is also pretty aggressive - I tend to strike to enemy territory. So is this basic tactic just wrong? Should I play more passive, fold back or maybe start using those fighters for strike escort only? 

 

At least those fighter duels above caps are going horribly wrong and after that enemy CV has free strikes and spotting... 

 

[Commander_Cornflakes]

Vor 1 Stunde, LongJohn_ sagte:

 

Okey. Midway in port with full upgrades and just got the captain retrained. All games with retraining though but I dont think thats a big dfference... 

 

So 21 games with 33% wr, avg pr and 107k avg dmg. Abysmal, absolute horror. 

 

Ups:

 

+ stacking damage if enemy team allows it is easy - 100k just like that. 

... Thats pretty much it. 

 

Downs:

 

- Absolutely horrible gameplay. Am I really just this bad at this level or do I try something totally wrong... 33% WR is abysmal. 

- some games were lost by the team and I might be top of the board but still couldnt make enough difference

- also met some AA divisions which are predictable and almost sure losses. 4-6 min and battle is over... 

 

So what do I do wrong. Maybe the worst thing is fighter control. If enemy CV isnt a total noob I get my butt kicked like no tomorrow. Midway or Haku, doesnt mather. Map awareness is inadequate and with poor fighterplay I cant protect friendlies.

 

How should I play this? 

 

My present old style is basically outdamage the enemy CV. This is the gamestyle I've used to up to old strike Essex and I really enjoy. So fighters are primary thing to protect own strikes and maybe then something else. This tactic is also pretty aggressive - I tend to strike to enemy territory. So is this basic tactic just wrong? Should I play more passive, fold back or maybe start using those fighters for strike escort only? 

 

At least those fighter duels above caps are going horribly wrong and after that enemy CV has free strikes and spotting... 

 

• Focus on destroyers instead of battleships.
• Take AP bombs to counter AA cancer like Des Moines or Worcester.
• Don't use your fighters to escort bombers, they have to spot and defend your team. Attack where no enemy fighters are instead.
• Practice fighter combat. You said it yourself, if you lose your fighters, the enemy CV can do what he wants.

And a question: What's your captain build and which modules did you choose?

[LongJohn_]

47 minutes ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

• Focus on destroyers instead of battleships.
• Take AP bombs to counter AA cancer like Des Moines or Worcester.
• Don't use your fighters to escort bombers, they have to spot and defend your team. Attack where no enemy fighters are instead.
• Practice fighter combat. You said it yourself, if you lose your fighters, the enemy CV can do what he wants.

And a question: What's your captain build and which modules did you choose?

 

I actually dropped some DDs and even with my limited crossdropping skills (havent played IJN CVs that succesfully) and captain didnt have TA retrained it was pretty easy. Two tight spread 6 torp drops... 

 

I've used HE so far for the damage over time. Tried AP on Essex when it changed and didnt like it much. Of course playstyle is different. Doa vs alpha... Actually my Doa tactics, as effective as it might in theory be, does need quite a bit time to do and normally enemy CV has plenty of time to react...

 

Should I also spread my strikeplanes? Some Haku players did so today. Again not that much doa but at least get some strikes in where enemy fighters are not. But then again some Haku players defended their team pretty effectively spreading fighters around the map. There you have to muscle it around somehow. 

 

I think I have to practice. I have some CV division pals I can use for trainingroom sessions and fight it out. At least one is pretty good CV player and if I can handle him I should be ok on the field. 

 

Then again keyboard control is one thing to learn. I misclicked a lot. Results are not dodging strafes, strafing own planes, circulating empty bombers back to battle etc. Too used to Ranger 1-1-2...

 

Took all airgroup mods, consielment mod and damage control mods. Captain has ASE, DFE, TA, BFT, CE and AS. 17 points total, two to spare atm. Allthough all battles today captain was under retraining and just got it complete after last battle so didnt play any battles using proper captain. 

[LongJohn_]

By the way is it even smart going to fighter duel over caps? Its risky and if you lose enemy team has significant advantage. 

 

How about just do my best keeping enemy planes spotting friendly DD and keep some distance without actual contact? 

 

I actually did ok until I started fighting them. Fighter presense send enemy CV move his planes around the map. And then again if I spread my strikeplanes, TBs one way (propably with fighters) looking for DDs or big hits to BBs and DBs other side of map hunting cruisers or burning BBs. 

 

I was actually amazed how few top tier cruisers actually had DefAA. Lots of Hindenburgs for example had only fighterplane/spotter. 

[Commander_Cornflakes]

Vor 4 Minuten, LongJohn_ sagte:

By the way is it even smart going to fighter duel over caps? Its risky and if you lose enemy team has significant advantage. 

Only take the fights where you are sure to win. (friendly AA, more skill than the enemy, more planes in that area)

Playing defensive in a disadvantegous situation is perfectly fine.

[LongJohn_]

17 minutes ago, Commander_Cornflakes said:

Only take the fights where you are sure to win. (friendly AA, more skill than the enemy, more planes in that area)

Playing defensive in a disadvantegous situation is perfectly fine.

 

Yep. This is one fundamental thing I have to change with Midway. With Ranger I propably outplay 90% of other Rangers and this allows me to play much more freely. 

 

Single small caps are one thing. Both sides have some AA around, maybe even AA cruisers and space is small. Propably its enough to keep enemy planes from spotting or at least from striking DD. 

 

Epicenter games are different but even then you can protect own DDs on their side of Epicenter and not rush to control entire area. 

[LongJohn_]

 

Actually some of those captain skills might effect the gameplay. AS is clear, more fighters per squad, and also T9 planes vs Haku T10 gives some edge from DfE... CE is also always useful. 

 

How did those modules and skills sound? I know BFT is pretty useless and I didnt get struck in those 21 games. 

[Estaca_de_Bares]

22 hours ago, LongJohn_ said:

Took all airgroup mods, consielment mod and damage control mods. Captain has ASE, DFE, TA, BFT, CE and AS. 17 points total, two to spare atm. Allthough all battles today captain was under retraining and just got it complete after last battle so didnt play any battles using proper captain. 

20 hours ago, LongJohn_ said:

How did those modules and skills sound? I know BFT is pretty useless and I didnt get struck in those 21 games. 

The captain skills seem fine to me with the exception of BFT.

 

My standard CV captain has ASE, DfE, TA, TAE, AS. For the IJN ones I've been using AFT+ManAA as a continuation, in that order, while for Lexington and Essex I'm going with the CE+AFT route. I've been moving up the captains on Ranger and Independence as they reached 15 points, and I'll probably move up the current one in Lady Lex (I've got another one partially trained for her waiting in Saipan at the moment) when I acquire Midway and keep with that build.

 

22 hours ago, LongJohn_ said:

By the way is it even smart going to fighter duel over caps? Its risky and if you lose enemy team has significant advantage.

Well, it's not very smart TBH, although I tend to do it more than I'd like to.

 

One thing I've noticed is that, in a fighter face-off above a cap at the early stages, the other guy more often than not pulls out expecting me to chase above his friendly AA. If I just stay and don't pursue, I've dominated that cap without a single shot. Friendlies could (hardly ever do it though) then get closer and establish the no-fly zone.

 

Salute.

 

 

[LongJohn_]

 

[rant]

 

Son of a ####!

 

My second day with Midway. 12 battles, below avg PR, 93k avg dmg, 30 or so planes. Lost 11/12 battles. I dont remember when this game has been this frustrating. No mather what you do and how, total horses#it. 

 

Quick analysis of propable reasons:

 

- I am just piss poor bad with this (CVs)

- T10 never fails (campfests, ships clustered together, AA is ridiculous, battles are 100-0 steamrolls to one end...)

- Downtiered planes (this is when I sold my beloved Essex 6 months ago..., even DDs shoot them down like flies)

 

Overally I got back the taste of that madhouse rush, frustration and sheer stress playing high tier CVs. Its not fun, its not relaxed... Why the heck should I spend my sparetime with s#it like this? Even good games are far from satisfying. I have no words...

 

[/rant]

[Torped1ne]

22 hours ago, LongJohn_ said:

 

[rant]

 

Son of a ####!

 

My second day with Midway. 12 battles, below avg PR, 93k avg dmg, 30 or so planes. Lost 11/12 battles. I dont remember when this game has been this frustrating. No mather what you do and how, total horses#it. 

 

Quick analysis of propable reasons:

 

- I am just piss poor bad with this (CVs)

- T10 never fails (campfests, ships clustered together, AA is ridiculous, battles are 100-0 steamrolls to one end...)

- Downtiered planes (this is when I sold my beloved Essex 6 months ago..., even DDs shoot them down like flies)

 

Overally I got back the taste of that madhouse rush, frustration and sheer stress playing high tier CVs. Its not fun, its not relaxed... Why the heck should I spend my sparetime with s#it like this? Even good games are far from satisfying. I have no words...

 

[/rant]

I've run into a similar situation during my first 2 weeks with the jpn one in thaio at the time was having near 70% wr with haku in 50 match 30% wr now is around 50% the step is huge the playstile different keep on trying do not lose faith ,it's this also one of the worst time to start to play t 10 aa has never been so strong and the cv player base so skilled cuz who is not very good cant anymore have some fun in them and basically they don't play it anymore , anyway it's not relaxing at all i personally play 1 or 2 t10 game by day more would be too stessfull