The CV Captains Cabin

[Thracen]

This game is all about positioning, trade efficiently and don't get overwhelmed, these judgements are impossible to make when there is a ship that can put torpedoes down on any broadside all over the map with literally seconds of warning. To counter a CV you have to group up to an impractical degree and hope you start close to an AA ship if you even have one in the first place. Hell the best tactic to not get hit by a cv is to sit next to the one on your team,  get his uber defensive buble and you can bet he'll protect his ship with his fighters. Not being able to shoot anything or contest points makes me a low priority target too for the CV.

 

There the perfect CV counter tactic, all I have to do is not you know do anything fun or useful. This is an exaggerated argument but the point applies on all levels. CVs force all players on the map to be less effective and have less fun because they have to position just in case they are next. It's like a whole platoon being pinned by machine gun fire, yes they can survive if they stay in cover and keep their heads down, but they ain't getting anything done until they deal with the MG. Problem in warships is you can't deal with the CV, you have to wait until he runs out of planes/bullets. The CV is nearly always the last ship to die, he is nearly always stealthed if he is in range at all and has the best AA defense in the match in most cases, just another CV privilege.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

CVs have the best AA?! 

 

I think you just irrationally hate CVs, they've been steadily begged for over a year now too. You probably don't remember the days of double Midway torp bonnets and far less Defensive AA cover.

[SaxonHoliday]

This game is all about positioning, trade efficiently and don't get overwhelmed, these judgements are impossible to make when there is a ship that can put torpedoes down on any broadside all over the map with literally seconds of warning. To counter a CV you have to group up to an impractical degree and hope you start close to an AA ship if you even have one in the first place. Hell the best tactic to not get hit by a cv is to sit next to the one on your team,  get his uber defensive buble and you can bet he'll protect his ship with his fighters. Not being able to shoot anything or contest points makes me a low priority target too for the CV.

 

There the perfect CV counter tactic, all I have to do is not you know do anything fun or useful. This is an exaggerated argument but the point applies on all levels. CVs force all players on the map to be less effective and have less fun because they have to position just in case they are next. It's like a whole platoon being pinned by machine gun fire, yes they can survive if they stay in cover and keep their heads down, but they ain't getting anything done until they deal with the MG. Problem in warships is you can't deal with the CV, you have to wait until he runs out of planes/bullets. The CV is nearly always the last ship to die, he is nearly always stealthed if he is in range at all and has the best AA defense in the match in most cases, just another CV privilege.

 

I don't know, I'm a DD main and I've found that CVs have one very, very glaring weakness: Fletcher (and by extension, Gearing). A good Fletcher on a CV hunt is a CV's worst nightmare: stealthy enough to get from one end of the map to the other without being spotted, fast enough to catch up with any fleeing carrier, dual-purpose guns that vomit HE shells and fires at a disturbing rate, excellent maneouvrability to weave through torpedo walls like a boss, Defensive Fire to make pretty much any attack run a guaranteed miss (up to 4 times) and very good torpedoes to keep you on your toes within 10km.

 

Though JP DDs pretty much get ****ed, I'll give you that. Especially poor Shimakaze with her brick-like turning radius... at least RU DDs still get reasonable AA to go with that.

[Thracen]

They have the longest lasting defensive fire, buffed to stop CV sniping. Because Losing a CV early while the enemy CV survives ruins games. God forbid they have a ship on the ocean that can attack them the same way they attack others. Just imagine a world where CVs had to sail with their fleets for defense like every other ship you say should.

 

The whole compositions of fleets was made up to protect CVs at their center for this very reason. USN BBs were often most useful in WW2 for defending carriers with their huge AA batteries.  The Des Moines has a 90% AA rating on ship comrade, well known as one of the most powerful AA ships in the game. T10 CVs have 85% and 86% ratings and a much, much longer lasting defensive fire.Throw in a couple of units of fighters and I think my argument stands.

[Thracen]

 

I don't know, I'm a DD main and I've found that CVs have one very, very glaring weakness: Fletcher (and by extension, Gearing). A good Fletcher on a CV hunt is a CV's worst nightmare: stealthy enough to get from one end of the map to the other without being spotted, fast enough to catch up with any fleeing carrier, dual-purpose guns that vomit HE shells and fires at a disturbing rate, excellent maneouvrability to weave through torpedo walls like a boss, Defensive Fire to make pretty much any attack run a guaranteed miss (up to 4 times) and very good torpedoes to keep you on your toes within 10km.

 

Though JP DDs pretty much get ****ed, I'll give you that. Especially poor Shimakaze with her brick-like turning radius... at least RU DDs still get reasonable AA to go with that.

 

No team likes seeing their DDs going on an random CV hunt, fletcher defensive fire has what a 90s cool down? more than enough time to drop. Closing on a CV is very hard if you get spotted, all the turning through the rapid strikes, (they come faster the closer you get) kills a fletcher's speed it's hard to keep up with 33knot ships while turning without the speed boost lost to the defensive fire. A T10 CV with armoured decks will shatter most shells a fletcher fires it can take a minutes to bring one down without torps, which would obviously be spotted as soon as they are launches.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

They have the longest lasting defensive fire, buffed to stop CV sniping. Because Losing a CV early while the enemy CV survives ruins games. God forbid they have a ship on the ocean that can attack them the same way they attack others. Just imagine a world where CVs had to sail with their fleets for defense like every other ship you say should.

 

The whole compositions of fleets was made up to protect CVs at their center for this very reason. USN BBs were often most useful in WW2 for defending carriers with their huge AA batteries. Check your facts. The Des Moines has a 90% AA rating on ship comrade, well known as one of the most powerful AA ships in the game. T10 CVs have 85% and 86% ratings and a much, much longer lasting defensive fire. I think my argument stands.

 

CV Defensive Fire is a fairly new addition, it was put in to stop sniping. Very different to Cruisers who are AA equipped and are expected to push.

 

The AA rating isn't the hard measure of AA power... 

 

You hate being farmed by CVs and either can't understand or don't want to counter it. 

 

 

I look forward to the salt when I get Hakaryu 

[Thracen]

I would love to counter CVs that's what I came here for if you look back. But short of strap myself to an AA CC and turn into torps nobody has come up with anything useful. I use full AA builds and CVs are my biggest problem in any match they appear with a even a mediocre player behind the wheel.

 

Defensive fire has been in the game for as long as I'v been playing, so I have no other reference. 

 

AA rating is what the game gives you to measure AA effectiveness, I think it's a fair metric to use if not perfectly accurate, when combined with the extended time of CV defensive fire and their own fighters its clear they have the most effective AA in the game. Just to hammer my point home and say that CVs have the best defensive against planes in the game, the top 15 ships for average plane kills are all CVs, the 16th is the Flint. I included the use of fighters in my air defense argument.

 

I appreciated your efforts but you are right, I don't understand how to deal with CV strikes effectively and you haven't offered any help beyond what I already know and implement. 

[RUSSIANBlAS]

Top plane kills are explained by a CV having fighters! You're not going to get loads of plane kills via AA on your CV. 

 

I run full spec AA on my USN BB and Manual AA on my German ones. I don't hugely fear CVs coming for me. As IJN BB it's a little more of an issue. Mid tires are also unpleasant with skilled CV pilots.

 

You should give higher tier CVs a try yourself. It isn't as easy as you might think.

[Thracen]

The Des Moines has a 90% AA rating on ship comrade, well known as one of the most powerful AA ships in the game. T10 CVs have 85% and 86% ratings and a much, much longer lasting defensive fire.Throw in a couple of units of fighters and I think my argument stands.

 

Did you read this? The idea that a CV will defend itself with it's own fighters shouldn't be an argument I have to make. I never once said CVs have an easy life farming ships left and right but even a bad game for a CV can be a terrible game for half a dozen ships. 2 Ships in the game with the highest average damage? 2 T10 cvs.

 

Anyway I don't want to argue, I want help countering CVs, your response has been to tell me it isn't a problem, it's easy, and tactics I already employ should be fine at keeping me safe. If this was the case I wouldn't be here going page for page looking for answers and telling people what I struggle with in terms of CVs

[Synth_FG]

Countering CV's is easy, stay together in a group of CA's and BB's, especially one with a few decent AA ships,

I'll go along way out of my way to avoid a groups containing montana's, minotaurs, des mes, balti or the high tier russian ca's 

 

don't be the battleship or cruiser out on it's own, your easy meat and will attract my planes like nothing else 

 

DD you may need to change playstyle go ahead of the group rather than cap on your own, retreat into them if I send planes your way, try and bait my aircraft into aa traps, 

[RUSSIANBlAS]

 

Did you read this? The idea that a CV will defend itself with it's own fighters shouldn't be an argument I have to make. I never once said CVs have an easy life farming ships left and right but even a bad game for a CV can be a terrible game for half a dozen ships. 2 Ships in the game with the highest average damage? 2 T10 cvs.

 

Anyway I don't want to argue, I want help countering CVs, your response has been to tell me it isn't a problem, it's easy, and tactics I already employ should be fine at keeping me safe. If this was the case I wouldn't be here going page for page looking for answers and telling people what I struggle with in terms of CVs

 

 

My average CV damage is only about the same as my BB average damage.

 

I tend to go for the smaller ships at the start. I only go for solo BBs later when they've hopefully had their AA HE spammed down. 

 

Which leads me to think that BB would be killed via other means anyway.

[SaxonHoliday]

 

Did you read this? The idea that a CV will defend itself with it's own fighters shouldn't be an argument I have to make. I never once said CVs have an easy life farming ships left and right but even a bad game for a CV can be a terrible game for half a dozen ships. 2 Ships in the game with the highest average damage? 2 T10 cvs.

 

Anyway I don't want to argue, I want help countering CVs, your response has been to tell me it isn't a problem, it's easy, and tactics I already employ should be fine at keeping me safe. If this was the case I wouldn't be here going page for page looking for answers and telling people what I struggle with in terms of CVs

 

Keep in mind that to protect themselves with their fighters, CVs are giving up the ability to provide cover against enemy strikes for their fleet and scouting with their fighters. And trying to sink a sneaky DD trying to flank them means they are wasting a lot of potential damage they could be doing to capital ships instead, especially against something as wiggly as the Fletcher who might take multiple full strikes to hit, let alone sink.

 

And if you sit in an AA monster like the Des Moines or Missouri, no sane carrier is going to let their planes near you. If you don't have one of those, well, stay with the group. You have other strengths to make up for your being an attractive snack for CVs (e.g. Zao vs Des Moines, shell speed, natch).

 

And if you're looking for the magic trick that'll allow you to ignore the existence of carriers in a match and play as if they weren't there, well, there isn't one. You'll just have to live with carriers being a thing. If the already-mentioned tricks aren't doing it for you, then you're gonna have a bad time.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

CVs are extremely powerful but I don't think it's their ability to slice up a full hp BB. It's their ability to kill solo DDs/other solo riders and spot for your ships. This quickly snowballs as the enemy can lose all it's spotters and your side cruises to victory.

[El2aZeR]

You know that a pack of ships made up of random players changing direction every 30 second doesn't stay a pack for any length of time. You know seeing torps and not getting hit by them isn't the same as countering them, it's the lost position, you even described this is your first post? Scattering the group for pick offs? good team play?

 

If people are unable to hold even just a loose formation for an extended period of time then it's their own fault. If you see torps early it is very easy to avoid them, it will not increase the distance between ships enough to give the CV an opportunity for an easy strike (as the perfect dodging route is usually the same for every ship in said formation). This is an issue that lies solely with the playerbase, not with how CVs are used or designed.

 

You know that the increase in shell time of 2km for a cc is life and death.

 

For some, yes, for others not so much. There are however several ways to not make yourself a juicy target regardless of what cruiser you're playing. Having a BB or two pushing in front of you will already alleviate most of the potential fire you're gonna take, after that it's just a matter of using cover, concealment and angling to mitigate damage. Especially on high tiers your AA goes far beyond just 4-5km, eliminating the need to hug your teammates. If a CV approaches with his planes all you need to do is pop Def AA and ruin his day (and, in some cruisers, not even that).

Ofc if the enemy is actually intelligent and decides to focus you down there is nothing much you can do.

 

This makes no sense, if planes are flying towards a group of ships the closest ship will be seen first by the planes.

 

It makes perfect sense if you understand how concealment works. A BB or even a cruiser behind you will be spotted long before you do, even if you're several km in front of them. That is ofc assuming you're not horribly overextending and have shut your AA guns off (as you should).

Assume the following scenario. You're in a full concealment build Fletcher, giving you an air detectability of 3.3km. You're ~6km in front of your team scouting for them, one of which is a full stealth Iowa, possessing an air detectability of 11.5km. So even if you're far in front of a teammate that captains one of the most stealthy BBs in the game, he's still gonna get spotted by approaching planes long before you.

 

I state this every match I have with a cv in it, it is difficult to coordinate via text at the best of times with a few ships. Let alone use the fleet tactics you propose, have you ever pulled this crapoff?

 

What I meant by that is that teamplay should be instinctual, not necessarily relying on much coordination on everyone's part. Everyone should know to stick together if there's a CV in the game even without communication. Likewise DDs should lay down smoke for their teammates without anyone specifically asking for it, BBs should focus on radar cruisers without DDs spamming F3 on them, etc. Even such simple displays of teamplay however are a rarity in WoWs nowadays.

 

Not only have I pulled this off, I have observed it several times. And it was extremely effective every time. Just recently I had a game in which the enemy did not even need to stick close together because a single, well positioned DM behind an island completely secured their air space. As a CV, there was nothing I could do but pick off the one foolish DD that attempted to sneak a cap on the other side of the map and protect my own team from enemy air strikes as best as I could. And despite shutting down the enemy CV, I was literally unable to damage the core enemy fleet because a single ship knew how to do his job (the one time I tried resulted in the loss of every single bomber). There is no other ship class in the game that can get shut down so hard so easily.

 

CVs suppress the designed playstyles of every ship making them less fun to play.

 

No, CVs suppress the playstyle imposed on them by the Meta, which in turn was formed primarily by solo playing scrubs. Obviously people will then believe that it's not fun to play this way because they have watered gameplay down already and thus are unwilling to commit to a higher standard of play. Scrubs are just too used and comfortable with their style of play even if it goes against the game's design.

Again, no ship in this game was designed to go off on their own, no matter the circumstances.

 

CVs skill range causes a disproportionate reliance on individual players for match outcomes.

 

I'm more than willing to admit that the skill gap is horrendously big between the average and skilled player. It shows how horribly WG has neglected teaching new players basic game mechanics. However, it' still holds true that CVs have great influence on a match because it is given to them by everyone else. CVs exploit mistakes which the majority of players are more than happy to make. If the average player skill was just a bit higher this wouldn't be nearly as big of an issue as it is now.

 

I have not accused you of being a scrub, but your arguments are largely in line of those scrubs love to use. It's nothing we haven't heard or refuted before.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

A short 5min video with how to Manual Drop with examples, advice on spotting and who to target first and lastly how to strafe and look after your planes might raise the general standard a bit.

[SaxonHoliday]

Think I'm getting better at this "being a carrier" thing.

 

Unfortunately, I lost all my fighters pretty early to bad luck - first 4 I sent into a straight fight against the enemy fighters - didn't want to risk missing a strafe. All 4 of my fighters lost while 1 of the enemy survived despite allied AA support. A bit later, I saw the enemy fighter squadron only having 3 fighters (he likely lost 1 to AA) and sent my 4 fighters in, sure that I had an advantage... but due to a combination of bad RNG and the allied V-170 underneath the dogfight not enabling his AA batteries, I lost all my fighters AGAIN. So all I had left was my strike squadrons (though plenty of them), and to my luck, the enemy Zuihou didn't know how to manual drop, giving me a big ol' advantage. Which really showed when I devastriked that poor Myougi attempting to cap our base.

Unfortunately, I'd decided to camp out in the southeast corner while most of the fleet went north, separating me from them... and the enemy Königsberg and Kuma moving in on our base to cut me off from them. I somehow survived that with about 2k HP, and from there, it was up to me to turn the match around - we were 1 kill and about 100 points behind. And turn it around I did. Sank another cruiser, weakened the König enough for her to be finished off by someone else, then in an absolutely grand strike, I flew a full assault on the enemy Zuihou... and got him from 100 to 0 in a single strike. Earned another devastrike, along with Confederate and High Caliber at that moment. Sadly, I missed the enemy Phoenix in the last strike before the match ended, so no Kraken for me... 

[Horin728]

The Zuiho has quite easy life, I have only recently started the IJN CVs, after getting to the Midway..

 

Well... the 1 day I got to her, she gave me two krakens and crazy damage...

 

Please continue playing CVs, we need them

[SaxonHoliday]

Please continue playing CVs, we need them

Hah! I'll definitely keep grinding out the line, but I doubt CVs will become my main thing, I'm too in love with my destroyers. They're fun though, I'll give you that... well, unless you have to fight AS Bogue...

[pra3y]

 

Once you are up to T8 CVs have more survivability than any other ships for the amount of attacks they can make, this survivability increases dramatically when their are no AA specialists, which is more common now than ever. Even the ships that do have defensive fire often switch it for hydro.

 

Oh dear, what a hardship, being able to attack the entire map from stealth, and people think stealth fire is a pain.

 

 

I think there lies the misconception most people have about CVs. People think that CVs can hit you from anywhere but stay safe, but forget that it's not the ship itself doing the damage but the planes. The more planes you shoot down the less damage a CV can do and the CV has a finite number of planes. Even a Midway or Hakuryu can run out of planes if a potato CV player just randomly pick targets to attack or attack without any plan. Also while tier 8/9 planes do indeed have better survivability (considering the Hiryu actually only get tier 6 torpedo bomber if you didn't know), against up tiered ships with better AA they'll still lose planes, just not as ridiculous as lower tiers.

 

 My question to you:  You can have matches with no CVs at all and the BBs all staying at max range lobbing infinite number of shells at each other while CAs and DDs have to move in to engage. Wouldn't it then be the same for those CAs and DDs? Those $^% BBs all stay stay at max range and can kill me in one shot when I close in while my own shells can't reach them or do as much damage as they can to me. Not fair as well right?

 

Again you are making a point of mine, they are very skill dependant so it's very unfair on a team that gets a potato CV when up against a unicum. This is not like any other ship because as has been stated many times in this thread, CVs have way more influence than other ship classes. I refer you too this statement of mine also:

 

"How can you balance a ship that commands up to 10 other ships armed with torps and bombs that are faster than any other ships on the map and can only be thinned by certain ships when they are in secondary ranges. They are as stealthy as destroyers and can respawn for 2/3rds of the match and if played well the enemy will never even see them let alone damage them since CVS at that level have some of the best AA in the game to stop them getting sniped and tasting their own medicine."

 

Being T8 against a T10 sucks even harder if it is a CV because they can very easily come find and attack you across the whole map, no other ship can do this. I spend about 10% of my games in my tirpitz turning from drops and trying to get to the 1 AA cc on the map that usually dies in 4 minutes anyway. I would rather be detonated, at least then I get 10 flags for my misery.

 

 

 

i) Influence

To a certain degree I can agree that CV do have some influence over games, but those influence will also depend on the rest of the team. Even if you have a super unicrum CV player on one side and a guy who started playing CV yesterday on the other, if the super unicrum's teammates all die in the first 5 min of the game his team will still lose. Sure he can damage targets or kill them but this game is not just about sinking ships. He can sink as many ships as he can but if the enemy has 4 domination points and his team has none do you think they can win?

 

ii) Thinned by certain ships

To be more accurate, its wiped out by certain ships, thinned by other ships.

 

iii) Stealthy as destroyers

I'm first going to assume you are referring to the planes. If you indeed are then I beg to differ strongly as I've never ever seen CV planes being a ninja unless some potato is trying to skirt around the border with his planes to try and snipe me, which only worked once or twice, and that's also because they were 2v2 CV matches. If you however are referring to the ships themselves I believe we had this conversation above before when I gave you the tier 10 example. Even you understood it and talked about moving forward somewhere mitigating the flight time. But that puts the CV nearer to detection and shooting range. So its high reward with high risk.

 

iv) Respawn for 2/3rds

Ignoring tier 10 for now, you yourself play CVs as well at low tier. Tell me if you lose your planes at the start to a CV player better than you or your planes get shot down by AA what can you do for the rest of the match? Do you have the reserve to one shot enemy ship? You can only do minor damage to them and even then at the risk of losing your remaining planes.

 

Thracen, on 16 March 2017 - 12:16 PM, said:

Anyway I don't want to argue, I want help countering CVs, your response has been to tell me it isn't a problem, it's easy, and tactics I already employ should be fine at keeping me safe. If this was the case I wouldn't be here going page for page looking for answers and telling people what I struggle with in terms of CVs

 

I think the best way for you to learn may be to play those tier 10 CVs yourself and get some experience, during the public test. All i can say is that the evasive maneuver and stuff works for me (in the other thread). If you however think it doesn't work for you, maybe the pov of a tier 10 CV may help in your understanding.

 

Apologies for the late reply.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tomasberkut]

Hi guys!

Long time since I posed anything. Or played WoWs.

 

Had a match in my Haku yesterday. Big mistake. While keeping track of all my units was easy after starcraft, the muscle memory kind of overlaps with the way I command my units in SC2 the interface is a ABSOLUTE DISASTER.

 

I am by no means a APM monster, I average at about 70-80 through the average SC match, this was enough to completely destroy WoWs and make me rage at the game hard. The game either does not register me selecting squads, does not register me clicking to do something, when box selecting squads - issues a move command. And theres attack locking long before the planes come near the locking zone.

 

Really ? I didnt notice it earlyer cause I was so used to the interface I did everything by mucle memory. I didnt feel how bad the interface was. After a brake I can tell its a mess.

 

Its like getting inside a car that turns different to the left than to the right depending on what we are doing, the brakes work with a random feel to the brake pedal, the engine sputters and stalls after adding throttle to either pull like mad or just die.

 

Really, the first thing to do is just make the game work.

[Viktor_Lima]

The interface is a disaster and will be reworked this year (soon [tm]). WG intend to change it to SC standards for left and right mouse button functionalities. Currently it's planning and anticipation over APM by far and I run maybe a quarter of the APM I would punch in SC2; maybe even less.

My final suggestion would be for you to start off with a Shokaku if you want to play WoWs again. It's a tremendous ship and manages a little less harshly than the Hakuryu. Also if you log Hakuryu into battle you're most likely going to get bitter vet as opponent who has stuck it out with carriers despite a sum of nerfs and the still awful UI. The class is still super powerful, but complex to play around the meta.

 

 

[pra3y]

New CV patch on the test server guys.

Hopefully they'll just restrict the no manual drop for tier 4 & 5 CVs to tier 4 when the patch hits the live server otherwise no more clubbing in my Bogue 

 

On the other hand the other changes look interesting, although what I really want is to be able to set groups for my squadrons so that they're easier to control and mass drop on the enemy ship.

[mcboernester]

I'm actually getting on the PTS for the first time since I'm very excited about the new Controls. As WG Stats they should be way more responsive. 

[RUSSIANBlAS]

I'm currently grinding out USN CVs as I want to taste the Lex and Essex one day...

 

Why does every single scrub and potato think it's viable to snipe a CV? It's starting to p 1$$ me off. I stats check enemy CVs prior to battle and even ones deep in the red Bad zone will try this.

 

Utter fail tactic if someone is even remotely prepared for it...

[mcboernester]

The PTS CV is Horrible. Its not about the manual drop stuff... I had a really hard time targeting dds, it just doesnt work. I clicked about 15 or 20 times before i finally got a drop indicator. And once again my Fear about a major cv bug brought to the live server rises..... 

 

 

Also, good luck with t6 cvs in a 2vs2 cv battle. Another guy already confirmed e will be able to outplay you with strafes and manual drops. Oh, and ijn is basically dead on t5 vs us cv (1 fightersquad) 

 

 

 

how do they manage to fail so hard every effin time...