smoke consumable -NEED- to change: rank 5+ discussion

[anonym_gxxGX7KaxQVa]

hi all, so as someone who plays a little bit of all classes, i was always of the opinion that the smoke screen consumable of DD is a little bit cheesy and annoying, but mostly fine as it is -in random battle that is...

however, in regards to the litteral spawn of satan that is the current rank 5+ meta in ranked season 4; i have changed my mind completely.

-in any type of competitive environnement where there is lot of communication and teamwork, the Smoke consumable is NOT fine. it is NOT fine at all. it is , in fact, so overpowered that the entire games revolves just around it.

the cruisers and battleships are just a token force, ltteraly the ONLY thing that decides the game is which team has the best destroyers, that can smoke friendly ships and kill ennemy DD. it does not matter how good or bad the Cruiser and BB players are. if nobody smoke them they WILL die without being able to do anything no matter how good they are. if somebody smokes them they WILL do good no matter how bad they are.

this leads to the detestable "smoke camping/ snipe an ennemy DD before the ennemy team do and you won" meta we are all suffering trough right now in ranked.

the invisifire from smoke is just WAYYYYYYYY too OP and thats all it is. it is cheesy but fine in random battle. it is a game breaker in ranked battles. anyone who is at rank 5+ will, i'm sure, agree with me.

 

but how to nerf smokescreen without overnerfing DD who need it to be competitive you ask?

 

-my proposal is simple: make the smokescreen basically a portable Hurricane instead: ships inside the smoke can only be seen at the minimum assured spot range (base 2km) just like right now; BUT: they can see outside the smoke just like 5km (maybe even reduce to the assured spot range of 2km if you really want to go hard on it).

just like in the hurricane, they can know where ennemy ships are cause they see them on the minimap, but they wont see them in game and wont be able to fire on them unless they area bout 5km away or even closer.

 

why is my idea good: the smoke now becomes the purely -DEFENSIVE- tool that it should be: DD can still use it to escape a bad situation just like before, and they can smoke friendly ships who are trapped in a bad spot or low on HP, but this curbs stomp hard on the long range smoke sniping /smoke camping meta that we all hate. if a ship want to sit 100% safe in smoke fine; but then he can't participate in the fight either. sounds much more fair doesn't it ?  what do you guys think ?

[Userext]

no

[KaraMon]

fair ? what? you are playing game made by Wargaming, by definition word "fair" doeas not exist

[ColonelPete]

DDs in smoke are an easy kill.

If you cannot kill it, you are probably too far away. Then it is easier to turn away and ignore the DD.

[anonym_gxxGX7KaxQVa]

@usertext:

what an insightful and interesting contribution to the conversation, thank you a lot for your effort.

 

@ColonelPete

this is the appropriate answer in random battle. NOT in ranked: their entire fleet is camping in smoke, on the capture point . you cannot really ignore it. you Have to attack it or you lose.

[Userext]

@usertext:

 

What an incredible way of reading. Thanks for writing my name wrong. I dont play ranked but judging from random battles smoke is okay unless its OP against you(the way a spear would be against the guy falling on it)

[159Hunter]

I agree that the current smoke is not ideal ( but there are far more pressing issues to tackle ). But your solution is just crap, you want to change spotting mechanics for ships inside smoke, and only for them? What about people camping behind an island you can't see, will you also negate their view on the enemy fleet?

[anonym_gxxGX7KaxQVa]

@Userext

if you do not play ranked at rank 5+ i have no trouble seeing why you think that way, as i say in the post, i whould have agreed with you just a couple weeks ago. if you reach rank 5+ then trust me you will change your mind very very quick, i was shocked myself to discover just how badly this game can be broken by smoke when used wth more templay than in random.

 

PS:sorry for misreading your name

 

@159Hunter

yes, the behind-island camping to exploit higher fire arc with DD and cruiser is also a problem.

your point being ?

are you trying to say because island camping is another problem that exists we shouldn't fix smoke camping ? i don't understand your logic ?

also, at least island camping can be done only at certain spots and can be fixed partially via map tweaking. smoke camping can happen anywhere including on a cap point

 

[Userext]

@Userext

if you do not play ranked at rank 5+ i have no trouble seeing why you think that way, as i say in the post, i whould have agreed with you just a couple weeks ago. if you reach rank 5+ then trust me you will change your mind very very quick, i was shocked myself to discover just how badly this game can be broken by smoke when used wth more templay than in random.

 

So basically you are complaining about people using game mechanic for team play. Right?

[daki]

 

So basically you are complaining about people using game mechanic for team play. Right?

 

Indeed he is. To be honest this is one of the most surprising threads and opening comments I have seen here.

I cannot remember anyone else complaining about teamplay when it is finally there.

 

A few comments to OP:

1. If your team gets roflstomped by a well coordinated and cooperating enemy team, just write GG WP instead of coming here on forums whining about "OMG OP smoke, nerf NOW!!"

2. BB and CA players who know how to use smoke from friendly DDs (or enemy) to their advantage are not bad players no matter what you say.

3. Ranks 5 or lower are not supposed to be "easy" mode. I understand that you got frustrated by a slower progression compared to previous ranks, but that is a rather egoistic and poor argument to ask for mechanics change.

4. Your "simple" proposal of having 2 different smoke mechanics depending on random / ranked beyond a certain level, which also requires 2 different spotting mechanics is neither simple nor really feasible

5. "anyone who is at rank 5+ will, i'm sure, agree with me" - hahaha one of the most epic statements . You could have very well written "anyone who disagrees with me is a noob/idiot..."

Again a very egoistic and elitist statement with 0 substance. Also please always remember that you are stating here only your personal opinions and in no way are you the representative of the entire community (or 5+ rank players in this case).

 

If a bit more teamplay and coordination upsets you so much, then I would suggest you quit ranked. Your proposal is just plain silly, unfeasible and will never happen.

[ColonelPete]

@ColonelPete

this is the appropriate answer in random battle. NOT in ranked: their entire fleet is camping in smoke, on the capture point . you cannot really ignore it. you Have to attack it or you lose.

If all enemy ships are in smoke, nobody can shoot at you and you can torpedo blindly into smoke and hit with most torpedos.

Your story does not add up.

[159Hunter]

@159Hunter

yes, the behind-island camping to exploit higher fire arc with DD and cruiser is also a problem.

your point being ?

are you trying to say because island camping is another problem that exists we shouldn't fix smoke camping ? i don't understand your logic ?

also, at least island camping can be done only at certain spots and can be fixed partially via map tweaking. smoke camping can happen anywhere including on a cap point

 

Yep, you come up with a fix tied to one problem.

You don't look at the mechanic that's causing it: one ship on a team sees an enemy ship, the entire team sees it ( when in rendering range ).

Now the only problem to fix the smoke isssue is to fix the mechanic mentioned above. No need to go get a fix that only works for one 'problem' and not fix it for another ( aka your solution ).

 

And because the mechanic is actually needed to make the game playable, I don't really see a fix. Plus, this 'problem' can also be countered...

[anonym_gxxGX7KaxQVa]

@ColonelPete:

this is the current meta in ranked 5+: everyone sits in smoke and 1 or 2 DD with the concealment expert skill go outside to scout, the entire games revolves around who can snipe those scouting DD first.

or sometimes, not enough DD on the team or they don't want to scout: then yes: exactly as you described: both team cam in smoke and wait for the otehr to make a move.

in rank 5+ this season it's not exceptionnal to see games where the timer is down to 12 mins and nobody got killed.

see the problem yet ?

 

@Daki

1: teamwork being important is fine; but when the game at rank 5+ revolves 100% around smoke camping and DD scouting everytime, and no other tactics or maneuvers are viable, how is that somehow not OP ?

2: you're being disingenuous or don't know how to read. that is not what i think, and that is 100% not what i said. what i said is "even good players will do bad if no smoke, and even bad players will do good if in smoke".

3: i'm not proposing a change because of rank 5 per se. i'm using it as an exemple because it's a situation wher teamwork is more proeminent and it really shows in this conditions how smoke can become OP

4: see point 3: you misunderstood me: i'm proposing the new smoke mechanic for all gamemodes, not just for ranked. i think if smoke is still used for hiding it remains viable for DD in random battle

5: look, you think i'm an idiot and that's fine. then, i humbly suggest you to go ask to your friend or other players that are rank 5+ that you trust more and you don't think are idiots what they think of the current gameplay, because as far as i can see every game in game chat. Everybody hates it and Everybody thinks the smoke canping is stupid. even the DD players do.

 

 

fine.

 

let smoke as it is then.

i'm an idiot who has no idea what he's talking about.

[Seaman_Staines1]

why is my idea good: the smoke now becomes the purely -DEFENSIVE- tool that it should be

 

Smoke by definition is a Defensive tool, like camo. Or would like a bit of real world smoke like this, then you would have something to cry over.

[ColonelPete]

@ColonelPete:

this is the current meta in ranked 5+: everyone sits in smoke and 1 or 2 DD with the concealment expert skill go outside to scout, the entire games revolves around who can snipe those scouting DD first.

or sometimes, not enough DD on the team or they don't want to scout: then yes: exactly as you described: both team cam in smoke and wait for the otehr to make a move.

in rank 5+ this season it's not exceptionnal to see games where the timer is down to 12 mins and nobody got killed.

see the problem yet ?

Ok, that means not everyone sits in smoke. The enemy DD are outside of smoke

If your DD cannot scout the enemy DDs or you do not manage to shoot the enemy DDs, then that is not the fault of the smoke, but the fault of your team.

The enemy is just better.

And in two cap games this should not really matter and if that happens in a three cap game, the enemy was obviously faster in the middle cap than your team. One again not the fault of the smoke, but the fault of your team.

[daki]

 

@Daki

 

5: look, you think i'm an idiot and that's fine. then, i humbly suggest you to go ask to your friend or other players that are rank 5+ that you trust more and you don't think are idiots what they think of the current gameplay, because as far as i can see every game in game chat. Everybody hates it and Everybody thinks the smoke canping is stupid. even the DD players do.

 

 

So you assume that anyone who disagrees with you is a clueless bob not playing ranked?

At least make the minimal effort of checking your facts instead of trying hard to belittle other players...

The reason why you see it so often in chat is not because "everybody" is hating it and writing about it, but because you are whining about it in chat.

That is the only thing I remember from the few games we met - you making "smartass" comments in chat...

 

Really mate, this is getting embarrassing...

[Francois424]

Ranked sucks for a lot of things other than smoke.

Take the BB repair ability for example.

 

BB has 3 fires on deck, and uses his fire extinguish ability

3 players on the other team go in TeamSpeak: so-and-so just used it's repair, quick set it on fire again

BB burns to a crisp very quickly...

 

Some abilities/mechanics in the game aren't good in Ranked, others are severely OP.

 

[159Hunter]

fine.

 

let smoke as it is then.

i'm an idiot who has no idea what he's talking about.

 

Nobody is saying you don't know what you're talking about. Don't act like a drama queen.

[AttiliusRex]

There is one huge threat to campers inside smoke. Random and long range torpedos. You are stationary. And for a cruiser or BB there is no way you can dodge torpedos if you spot them while stationary.

[loppantorkel]

-my proposal is simple: make the smokescreen basically a portable Hurricane instead: ships inside the smoke can only be seen at the minimum assured spot range (base 2km) just like right now; BUT: they can see outside the smoke just like 5km (maybe even reduce to the assured spot range of 2km if you really want to go hard on it).

just like in the hurricane, they can know where ennemy ships are cause they see them on the minimap, but they wont see them in game and wont be able to fire on them unless they area bout 5km away or even closer.

 

 

why is my idea good: the smoke now becomes the purely -DEFENSIVE- tool that it should be: DD can still use it to escape a bad situation just like before, and they can smoke friendly ships who are trapped in a bad spot or low on HP, but this curbs stomp hard on the long range smoke sniping /smoke camping meta that we all hate. if a ship want to sit 100% safe in smoke fine; but then he can't participate in the fight either. sounds much more fair doesn't it ?  what do you guys think ?

I made a topic about this recently. I'm not too fond about the invisi-firing from inside the smoke, which seems to be what you're arguing against too. It's a mechanic that could be better. Smoke should be mainly defensive and if you use it offensively, using your guns, some penalty should come with it - visibility of your ship should increase or something. People got really upset that someone thinks some mechanics could be improved though, so don't expect much.

[Shaka_D]

@Userext

if you do not play ranked at rank 5+ i have no trouble seeing why you think that way, as i say in the post, i whould have agreed with you just a couple weeks ago. if you reach rank 5+ then trust me you will change your mind very very quick, i was shocked myself to discover just how badly this game can be broken by smoke when used wth more templay than in random.

 

PS:sorry for misreading your name

I'm sorry to say this, but why exactly do you think only a rank 5 player will understand you or know what you're talking about? Why not rank 6, 7, 8 or 9?

 

Smoke used by a clueless player is pointless, but I've seen the extremely clever use of smoke by dd players on my journey to rank 7, to the point where it can give a team an optimal advantage at some point in the game, but what you fail to realise is that the opposite team most likely also has dd's and they can do the same to shield their ships.

 

I use my smoke to quite often conceal a bb or cruiser in games when cap circles are close and being contested. It sounds to me like your argument is one in which the enemy team dd's were better than your own teams dd's and you got suckerpunched.

 

I complained bitterly last night because a bb landed perfect shots on me from around 15km and decimated my dd while I was hiding in smoke, was not even spotted when he did this. You're arguing about nerfing certain aspects of ships because your team got outplayed. This is not the way it works.

[mtm78]

I made a topic about this recently. I'm not too fond about the invisi-firing from inside the smoke, which seems to be what you're arguing against too. It's a mechanic that could be better. Smoke should be mainly defensive and if you use it offensively, using your guns, some penalty should come with it - visibility of your ship should increase or something. People got really upset that someone thinks some mechanics could be improved though, so don't expect much.

 

Iirc you were the battleship captain who complained about DD's in smoke burning you down, you wanted smoke / invisi firing removed entirely right? Or was that some other guy.... because if it's you, stop acting surprised people laughed at the proposition

[T0byJug]

 

Iirc you were the battleship captain who complained about DD's in smoke burning you down, you wanted smoke / invisi firing removed entirely right? Or was that some other guy.... because if it's you, stop acting surprised people laughed at the proposition

 

unusually loppantorkel is a DD player. He made a post about Gun DD's.. For the most part the discussion  was quit sensible! loppantorkel is however just remembering the Fools that added nothing to his thread.  funnily enough the same ones that are not adding to this thread.. Yes KaraMon looking at you

[mtm78]

 

unusually loppantorkel is a DD player. He made a post about Gun DD's.. For the most part the discussion  was quit sensible! loppantorkel is however just remembering the Fools that added nothing to his thread.  funnily enough the same ones that are not adding to this thread.. Yes KaraMon looking at you

 

My apologies towards loppantorkel in that case

 

And yes, it is very surprising that certain mechanics seem to work 'different' when used in proper team play ( aka NOT randoms ). But you can't go around splitting mechanics up based on game mode, nor rank. 

[GulvkluderGuld]

I think the OP is bringing up two seperate problems.

 

1) smoke is OP

2) ranked gameplay at ranks > 5 are stale and repetitive (due to smoke)

 

Would love to see variation in the gameplay, so I will agree #2 is problematic.

 

For #1 I personally do not like the offensive use of smoke, eg. using it aggressively to invisifire. If this is indeed the problem OP is describing, changes are in order.

On the other hand, what I read is that each team rush the cap, smoke up and use it defensively to protect their capital ships and CAs. This represents intelligent use of smoke.