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Alright, straight to the point.

Just sailed to battle with my Kagero (IJN DD IX) and encountered an enemy Mahan (US DD VII), a DD two tiers lower.
As you all know, IJN Torps are way better then US Torps, where US Guns obliterate every IJN DD in a DD vs DD battle.

So I naturally torped him, turned away and smoked so he couldnt use his guns to destroy me.


Even though he tried to dodge I managed to score two hits with my Type 93 Mod. 2 torpedos (20,967dmg each -> 41,934 damage)
TWO HITS with tier IX IJN torpedos on a tier VII US DD. 

Here is the result:

 Kagero.jpg


Verursachter Schaden = Damage Caused (why yes, I am from Germany)

12,904 out of 41,934 means just 30% of the possible damage on a ship with 0% torpedo protection.

Alright, now please don't explain me how this works with torpedoes hitting the same spot bla bla bla. I know the game mechanics.

But I'm not saying this is a bug in the game mechanics, I say this is unfair for IJN DDs.
Why? Because IJN DDs are not able to fight US or Russian DDs head on because of their weak guns. In exchange for the torps.
The only chance for a IJN DD to win a 1vs1 DD fight is to land torp hits.

But lets face it, hitting a enemy DD that KNOWS you threw torps at him is hard enough, they will be able to dodge most of the time.
And then... a IX DD does indeed manage to hit a VII DD twice, thus finally winning a 1vs1, and what happens?
NOTHING. Two torpedoes are not enough to kill him, because they did not hit him the proper way. WHY, WARGAMING :C 

I desperately do hope you understand why I as a IJN DD Captain feel totally underpowered.
You know how long it took me to grind to Kagero? And it can't even destroy a Mahan in a 1vs1?

This should not be possible.

The Compartmentalization should not work for torpedos on DDs

Please, I beg you.

I'm going to sit in a corner now and cry, a lot...


EDIT: Thanks to users LilJumpa and creamgravy I was able to find much better words for the topic.

Kagero.jpg

Edited by Quaekenbirdt

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OK so you know why this is happening. So this post is more about IJN DDs than game mechanics.

 

IJN DD torpedoes are no longer the best in the game. The Fletcher outclasses the Kagero in everything barr stealth. Shimakaze doesnt fare much better against the Gearing. Fubuki is the last decent IJN DD.

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It's not torpedo reduction but Compartmentalization. http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration

 

Both torpedoes hit the same compartment (mid section) and its HP pool was completely depleted (12,745) which isn't enough to sink the ship (14,100 or more)

 

If the Mahan had already taken ~2000 damage from somewhere (i.e. 1-2 salvos from Kagero guns) just one torpedo would've sunk him. 

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It's not torpedo reduction but Compartmentalization. http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration

 

Both torpedoes hit the same compartment (mid section) and its HP pool was completely depleted (12,745) which isn't enough to sink the ship (14,100 or more)

 

Did you even read my post?

I thought I clearly said that I KNOW ABOUT THE GAME MECHANICS. 

I may have used the therm "torpedo recuction" because I didnt know it was called Compartmentalizatzion, yet I WAS TALKING ABOUT THE REDUCTION BEING CAUSED BY HITTING THE SAME SPOT TWICE.

 

This post is NOT about explaining how this worked, its about that it looks unfair to me how it works.

 

Please read and understand the topic before replying.

 

 

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The salt is real.

 

Kagero can easily sink a Mahan 1 v 1 with guns.

 

No? DPM For Mahan is 135k for HE and DPM for kagero is 84k

http://wows-numbers.com/ship/4288559088,Mahan/

http://wows-numbers.com/ship/4284364496,Kagero/

 

Selected B hull for both

If we include the dodging kagero in a fair fight has no chance against mahan theoratically

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bla bla unfair bla bla

 

Try to repeat it. Since you are talking like it would happen every other game that an enemy DD survives two Torpedo hits.

I actually think I have seen more ships get detonated at full health and oneshot by a single shell than I have seen DDs survive two torp hits.

 

You might want to rephrase your post since your wording does not indicate you knowing about the game mechanics. (Torpedo protection, 70% damage reduction, comparison to a torpedo belt of the Yamato.......)

Last hint: signature

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The salt is real.

 

Kagero can easily sink a Mahan 1 v 1 with guns.

 

I'm not sure if you're a troll.

Let me show you the stats, taken from wows-numbers.com

 

 MahanvsKagero.png

 

Mahan got over 200% the DPM then Kagero AND doesnt have to struggle with the outrageously slow turret traverse of the Kagero.

 

Even if Kagero does not use the C Hull and keeps its third turret, its still 88k DPM vs 126k DPM

 

And you want to tell me a Kagero can easily sink a Mahan 1vs1 with guns?

 

SHAME

ON 

YOU

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Try to repeat it. Since you are talking like it would happen every other game that an enemy DD survives two Torpedo hits.

I actually think I have seen more ships get detonated at full health and oneshot by a single shell than I have seen DDs survive two torp hits.

 

You might want to rephrase your post since your wording does not indicate you knowing about the game mechanics. (Torpedo protection, 70% damage reduction, comparison to a torpedo belt of the Yamato.......)

Last hint: signature

 

Yeah you are indeed right. Thanks for the hints.

As one can see, I am all new to the forum.

 

But not to the game :P

 

EDIT: Thanks to you I found out how a signature works AND I did rephrase the topic. Thanks mate!

Edited by Quaekenbirdt

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And you want to tell me a Kagero can easily sink a Mahan 1vs1 with guns?

 

SHAME

ON 

YOU

 

US destroyers struggle to hit a small ship at 8km. Seriously, learn to use the guns effectively.

 

 

 

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US destroyers struggle to hit a small ship at 8km. Seriously, learn to use the guns effectively.

 

Do i have to put a video up too where IJNDD captains suck at shooting and a tier lower USNDD wrecks them or will you understand showing gameplay is the worst type of making an arguement? Theoratically A mahan has 1.5X a kagero's fire power so... 

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@Quaekenbirdt I just want to let you know creamgravy is correct. If used correctly a Kagero can and will destroy a Mahan in a gun fight but you must not go under 7-8 kms and just use your rear gun turrets while dodging and I am speaking from experience. It can even score citadels on Ibuki for example but only close up (also from experience). IJN DD guns do a heck of a lot more module damage than any other DD guns.

With this said I do agree with you that 2 torp hits of any kind on a DD should obliterate it let alone leave it standing alive but unfortunately this is the game mechanic we have to live with even though it does not seem correct.

 

All the best,

Barky

Edited by Barkyro
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You actually do have a pretty good chance at fighting US DDs with your guns in an IJN DD, as long as you stay at around 8 kms or more. It has been done to me while I was in a US DD, and I've done it while I was in IJN DD. The guns do really good damage, and knock out engines and guns left and right. SE also gives you more of a fighting chance, bringing the lackluster HP of IJN DDs to similar levels with the competition.

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Do i have to put a video up too where IJNDD captains suck at shooting and a tier lower USNDD wrecks them or will you understand showing gameplay is the worst type of making an arguement? Theoratically A mahan has 1.5X a kagero's fire power so... 

 

And theoretically a DM has twice the dpm of a Zao, but go compare actual game performance. Flatter shell curves and higher alpha makes a huge difference in a DD v DD knife fights.

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And theoretically a DM has twice the dpm of a Zao, but go compare actual game performance. Flatter shell curves and higher alpha makes a huge difference in a DD v DD knife fights.

 

did you seriously compare the situation DM and Zao in against DDs?

This isnt your average Ca vs CA fight. USNDDs have a lot more maneuverability and RoF. Alpha doesnt mean anything after the DD engine nerf. For a kagero win against mahan it has to stay away from it as much as possible as others pointed out. So take your obsolete arguement somewhere else

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The other DD should be cut in half by two massive hits like that in the same place.

 

But I'm sure the compartmentalization is there to protection against some other, more common, scenario, so we have to pick which case is more important.

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did you seriously compare the situation DM and Zao in against DDs?

This isnt your average Ca vs CA fight. USNDDs have a lot more maneuverability and RoF. Alpha doesnt mean anything after the DD engine nerf. For a kagero win against mahan it has to stay away from it as much as possible as others pointed out. So take your obsolete arguement somewhere else

 

No, I compare accuracy vs. accuracy, which is the exact thing up for discussion here. And alpha means a lot when the first salvo is likely to take out modules and turrets.

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No, I compare accuracy vs. accuracy, which is the exact thing up for discussion here. And alpha means a lot when the first salvo is likely to take out modules and turrets.

 

No? Accuracy means the % of your ship hitting the target out of the shells fired. I pointed out raw DPM of these DDs and you pointed out raw dpm of CAs. There is no accuracy taking role here. Also did you not read the part i said maneuverability? You know DDs do dodge shells right? If they would calculate the amount of shells you dodged USNDDs would top it by i dont know 900 shells? USNDDs like mahan have tighter turning radius(560 mahan 640 kagero) it will be able to dodge the shells kagero puts out. This is a problem for the high alpha low RoF ship. And since there is no armour included a kagero will lose the fight. But of course the close range gun fight requires a lot more skill than long or medium range so it shouldnt suprise you that some can beat USNDDs

 

At 7-8km range? Well there is possibility but both of you will miss a lot so there is no reason to engage a DD at 7-8 km unless you are a CA

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No? Accuracy means the % of your ship hitting the target out of the shells fired. I pointed out raw DPM of these DDs and you pointed out raw dpm of CAs. There is no accuracy taking role here. Also did you not read the part i said maneuverability? You know DDs do dodge shells right? If they would calculate the amount of shells you dodged USNDDs would top it by i dont know 900 shells? USNDDs like mahan have tighter turning radius(560 mahan 640 kagero) it will be able to dodge the shells kagero puts out. This is a problem for the high alpha low RoF ship. And since there is no armour included a kagero will lose the fight. But of course the close range gun fight requires a lot more skill than long or medium range so it shouldnt suprise you that some can beat USNDDs

 

At 7-8km range? Well there is possibility but both of you will miss a lot so there is no reason to engage a DD at 7-8 km unless you are a CA

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous, unless you don't know how to aim or predict any kind of movement at all. How is there no reason to engage a DD at 7-8 kms? Russian DDs are actually built to engage at those distances, and IJN DDs's guns are only slightly worse as far as shell arc goes. 7-8 kms is the perfect range at which US DDs will miss a lot due to their slow shells, but IJN DDs (provided the captain knows how to aim) will do 1-2k damage per salvo.

 

And I'm just gonna assume that the "close range fights require more skill" line was sarcasm or a joke.

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No? Accuracy means the % of your ship hitting the target out of the shells fired. I pointed out raw DPM of these DDs and you pointed out raw dpm of CAs. There is no accuracy taking role here. Also did you not read the part i said maneuverability? You know DDs do dodge shells right? If they would calculate the amount of shells you dodged USNDDs would top it by i dont know 900 shells? USNDDs like mahan have tighter turning radius(560 mahan 640 kagero) it will be able to dodge the shells kagero puts out. This is a problem for the high alpha low RoF ship. And since there is no armour included a kagero will lose the fight. But of course the close range gun fight requires a lot more skill than long or medium range so it shouldnt suprise you that some can beat USNDDs

 

At 7-8km range? Well there is possibility but both of you will miss a lot so there is no reason to engage a DD at 7-8 km unless you are a CA

 

Wow.. just wow.

 

The entire point of that comparison is that just raw DPM only tells one part of the story, and does in no way by itself dictate which ships will outdamage (or outfight) another. Was that really so hard for you to understand? As for dodging, IJN DDs have lower profiles and are thus harder to hit beyond the fact that IJN DD guns have far better ballistics.

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Alright, straight to the point.

 

Just sailed to battle with my Kagero (IJN DD IX) and encountered an enemy Mahan (US DD VII), a DD two tiers lower.

As you all know, IJN Torps are way better then US Torps, where US Guns obliterate every IJN DD in a DD vs DD battle.

 

So I naturally torped him, turned away and smoked so he couldnt use his guns to destroy me.

 

 

Even though he tried to dodge I managed to score two hits with my Type 93 Mod. 2 torpedos (20,967dmg each -> 41,934 damage)

TWO HITS with tier IX IJN torpedos on a tier VII US DD. 

Simple game mechanics.

A Ship is divided into several sections with own HP-Pools.

Plus Torps dont do max Damage when hit on the bow or stern. Try this in a training room: Torp hit in the middle of the ship = max Damage (middle section has more HP than the total ship XP, which just means you can destroy a ship by constant fire into that section) and a dead DD in most cases.

 

Torp hit at the bow or stern: lower damage because this section has lower HP than the Ship, so the DD survives, the second Torp hits a "empty" HP-Box so it doesnt deal any damage at all.

 

This is weird sometimes but intentional and usefull in a lot of cases. It not only comes into account when torps hit ships like DDs but also when you constantly spam HE on a ship that is almost burned to death: the upper structure has no HP left so your HE shells dont do damage anymore.

 

 

A good example for the issue is this video:

Here you can clearly see what I explained: first torp did damage, Hitbox is emtpy so the other Torps cant do the kill

 

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No? Accuracy means the % of your ship hitting the target out of the shells fired. I pointed out raw DPM of these DDs and you pointed out raw dpm of CAs. There is no accuracy taking role here. Also did you not read the part i said maneuverability? You know DDs do dodge shells right? If they would calculate the amount of shells you dodged USNDDs would top it by i dont know 900 shells? USNDDs like mahan have tighter turning radius(560 mahan 640 kagero) it will be able to dodge the shells kagero puts out. This is a problem for the high alpha low RoF ship. And since there is no armour included a kagero will lose the fight. But of course the close range gun fight requires a lot more skill than long or medium range so it shouldnt suprise you that some can beat USNDDs

 

At 7-8km range? Well there is possibility but both of you will miss a lot so there is no reason to engage a DD at 7-8 km unless you are a CA

 

US DDs have much slower shells which makes it rather easy for IJN DDs to dodge them at 6km+.

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Mahan got over 200% the DPM then Kagero AND doesnt have to struggle with the outrageously slow turret traverse of the Kagero.

 

 

Even if Kagero does not use the C Hull and keeps its third turret, its still 88k DPM vs 126k DPM

 

And you want to tell me a Kagero can easily sink a Mahan 1vs1 with guns?

 

SHAME

ON 

YOU

So what's the detectability of Mahan?

Awesomely short 7,9km so Kagero has all the chances for controlling engagement!

 

So how well could Mahan's mortars hit away running destroyer from that range?

Not so well, while IJN's flat trajectory would give lot higher hit rate even without target "coming closer to meet shells".

 

And how many guns of Mahan can fire forward?

Straight forward only two.

And how many guns can Kagero have firing backwards?

Four, firing high damage, high fire chance shells.

That alone basically evens Mahan's ROF advantage.

 

So it's the Mahan which draws way shorter stick in such chase fight.

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I'm sorry but this is ridiculous, unless you don't know how to aim or predict any kind of movement at all. How is there no reason to engage a DD at 7-8 kms? Russian DDs are actually built to engage at those distances, and IJN DDs's guns are only slightly worse as far as shell arc goes. 7-8 kms is the perfect range at which US DDs will miss a lot due to their slow shells, but IJN DDs (provided the captain knows how to aim) will do 1-2k damage per salvo.

 

And I'm just gonna assume that the "close range fights require more skill" line was sarcasm or a joke.

 

Are we talking about the game or just a duel? It is risky to engage a DD with a DD at 7-8 km if you are not at the clear. Also it does require more skill at close range because it is a more fast phase fight. Shells have up to 12-16 secs at long range for battleships for example you can dodge most of them at long range but not at close range

 

As for dodging, IJN DDs have lower profiles and are thus harder to hit beyond the fact that IJN DD guns have far better ballistics.

 

Why would low profile matter when the shells have a higher arc? IJNDDs are also longer than USNDDs

Yes IJNDDs have better firing arc everyone knows that even the kid who just saw the trailer knows that

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So it's the Mahan which draws way shorter stick in such chase fight.

It seems as if i m the only one realising HE IS NOT At 8 KM. I dont care if he went straight into fight or he just poped around the corner he was close enough to put torps in the water. You dont put torps in the water if your enemy DD is 8 km away because its nearly impossible to hit a DD with torps at 8km if he isnt afk.

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