Japanese Destroyers need some love

[ghostbuster_]

Wich brings the DD exactly what? I dont Play a ship that brings other Players exp and credits in a game that requires myself to grind to reach higher Level ships. To many of the Things you descibe do not reward the DD Player and at T10 you can do the same Thing in a Gearing and not be Auto outguned at Close range when detected and outperformed whith Torpedos when they are suposed to be your main perc. If i wanted to Play suicide Torpedo boats i would have Chosen to Keep playing low Tir RU DDs. WG changing the playstyle of ships hit me twice on T9 with Taiho and Kagaro and i tell you ist no Fun reselecting your target 1st T10 ship 3times in a Grind game.

 

 

Main goal is winning the battle. All of those things make your team to win the battle. So DDs have bigger impact on game than any other class.( execpt CVs)

Dont engage with IJP DDs at close range than. Shima is faster than geaeing. You can easly run away from him. RU DDs are detected miles away before they spot you. 

If you play right, there is no problem with shima.  About hakuryu i can talk about the cv players i know. When i div up with them, they perform amazing with hakuryu. So i suggest you to grind your tier 10s.

[Userext]

Main goal is winning the battle. 

 

I prefer a loss if i will receive 300 exp at win and 2000 exp at loss

 

So DDs have bigger impact on game than any other class.( execpt CVs)

 

Oh boy... thats true only if your team lets enemy teams' DDs be in charge. 

 

[ghostbuster_]

 

I prefer a loss if i will receive 300 exp at win and 2000 exp at loss

 

 

Oh boy... thats true only if your team lets enemy teams' DDs be in charge. 

 

What i told up there were DDs job. If a dd player does those, it means he does well. 

 

What is that "letting DDs be in charge". Than do the right thing as a DD and spot the enemy DDs. Put them under pressure. 

[Jethro_Grey]

 

1-Free exped bs could be said for any of the ships.

2-Players havent adjusted yet? Thats just a claim that you made up. At least i ahve a third party website to support my claim. Surely people have the adjusting issue but that doesnt mean the ship is ok. What will you say when ships' stats dont change much in 3-4 months?

3-Why are you blaming the ship in the torp wall case? You arent going to make it balanced if you make it UP for a while because it was OP

4-Well what do you think the guy that complains about torps with %41 win rate and 10k damage in tier 9 BB has to say? Oh right i forgot since WG thought like you(stats dont matter) they nerfed IJNDDs and now since they dont look at the stats they think its okay(torpedo whiners shut their mouth? it must be okay!- even though those torpedo whiners were complaining about low tier DDs)

5-minekaze to mutsuki? Despite the fact people dont like mutsuki and find it a degrade? Despite the fact that in IJNDD line where torpedoes(according to today's WG and you) isnt supposed to be the main case?

6-Devs have better stats than us? The devs that only now realised artillerity system in wot is broken has better stats than us? The Devs that buffed battleships turn radius and rudder shift time in CBT have better stats than us(they backed off of course their stats showed a decrase at DD,CV exp and damage)?

7- Wouldnt it be more logical if devs dont throw the playstyles of IJNDDs left and right? How hard is it to make a line aim for one thing? Japanese BBs for example have long range firing ability. Wouldnti t be stupid if they put a 18km ranged IJNBB there?

 

1. ugh, yes...obviously, as folks want their Yamatos, Montanas and Shimas

2. Made up? Nope.gif. Call it educated guess. ^^

    Right, the third party website.

    The world will end soon. ^TM  Bold claim? Made up? HA! I have pic of a dude with the truth written on a piece of cardboard to back up my claim! 

    Seriously though, pls don't rely too much on stats from a third party website. Whatever you see there, is at best an indicator.

4. Not sure what you are trying to tell with that 41% WR BB driver. Can you elaborate?

6. Yes, WG has access to ALL the data as they are running the servers, they don't have to rely on small sample sizes.

     How they interpret that data is an entirely different matter. But when it comes to WoWS, they did a fine job sofar - maybe with the exception of US Cvs from Tier 5-7, but the CV thing is just my personal opinion.

     I can't really comment on WoT, as i don't play it as much as i play WoWS. Personally, i don't like Arty much in WoT, but i consider it a necessary evil. Is it balanced? No idea, i lack the experience to comment on that.

 

  

[Userext]

What i told up there were DDs job. If a dd player does those, it means he does well. 

 

What is that "letting DDs be in charge". Than do the right thing as a DD and spot the enemy DDs. Put them under pressure. 

 

Well except the cap award the game doesnt award you for any of the things you listed. So yeah....

You do know spotting the enemy DD isnt going to do jack stuff if your TEAM lets them right? Oh i forgot you dont know these things....

 

2. Made up? Nope.gif. Call it educated guess. ^^

    Right, the third party website.

    The world will end soon. ^TM  Bold claim? Made up? HA! I have pic of a dude with the truth written on a piece of cardboard to back up my claim! 

    Seriously though, pls don't rely too much on stats from a third party website. Whatever you see there, is at best an indicator.

 

I hope you know those stats from "third part sites" are the stats at wows player stats. So yeah a third party websites that ses the information WG gives them is the most clear information.....

Also yes your claim is made up. Just because you used words to express your claim does not mean they are right.

 

4. Not sure what you are trying to tell with that 41% WR BB driver. Can you elaborate?

 

It was related to you hiding your stats. Do you really think a player can have not biased opinion if he has %25 win rate? nope. This is why stats do matter. Lets say you suck at IJNCVs(%30 win rate 300 average exp 3k average damage). -Pre CV nerf- Then you open a topic about how IJNCVs suck and requires a buff while ignoring you sck at this ship. Do you now understand why stats do matter at some occasions? 

 

6. Yes, WG has access to ALL the data as they are running the servers, they don't have to rely on small sample sizes.

     How they interpret that data is an entirely different matter. But when it comes to WoWS, they did a fine job sofar - maybe with the exception of US Cvs from Tier 5-7, but the CV thing is just my personal opinion.

     I can't really comment on WoT, as i don't play it as much as i play WoWS. Personally, i don't like Arty much in WoT, but i consider it a necessary evil. Is it balanced? No idea, i lack the experience to comment on that.

 

WG has acces to all data but they dont use it much.

Players at WoT have been complaining abot artillerity. The ones who use it and the ones victim of it. Till now they kept saying "git gud skrub" "arty is fine" "arty is balanced" Now they are sucking those up and trying to rebalance arty. I dont want IJNDDs to be the artillerity of WoWs. I dont want these ships to be wasted for years until developers realise they made a mistake. They said before that they dont like the way IJNDDs are implemented(true) and they dont want to give DDs more torpedo spam. Which is fine. But when you are taking something from a ship you have to give something in order for it to be balanced. This is going to end with community abondoning high tier IJNDDs to good players which would mean devs pulling a CV-like issue again* or community playing the ships until devs realise that there is something wrong which could take 5-6 years considering WoT artillerity

 

*You probably remember but it would be good to rephrase it. CVs werent populated as much as other ships. So Devs buffed them too much that CVs started doing a load of damage breaking the game. Then they nerfed the CVs hard and dont know how to deal with it.

 

You cant say that IJNDD line is stealth type with good torpedoes and then give gearing to USNDD line. Honestly gearing is a better stealthy japanese destroyer than shimakaze is.

The problem here is that they start with type 1(stealthy torpedo boat) on IJNDD line and then proceed to some weird configuration of gun boat and torpedo boat while ignoring stealth. 

It would be as if IJNBB line started with heavily armoured and heavily armed ships and then ending up with Zao.(which you probably dont know but at one point yamato had 65mm turret armour)

[ghostbuster_]

 

Well except the cap award the game doesnt award you for any of the things you listed. So yeah....

You do know spotting the enemy DD isnt going to do jack stuff if your TEAM lets them right? Oh i forgot you dont know these things....

 

 

well after 5k+ battles i believe i know enough about this game. what do you expect from your team to do if you dont spot them. do your job first and than expect the others to do their jobs. 

[AttiliusRex]

well after 5k+ battles i believe i know enough about this game. what do you expect from your team to do if you dont spot them. do your job first and than expect the others to do their jobs. 

 

Then at least give us spotting rewards as seen in WoT. Playing to win is not very attractive in a game such as WoWS if it puts you at an income loss.

[Userext]

well after 5k+ battles i believe i know enough about this game. what do you expect from your team to do if you dont spot them. do your job first and than expect the others to do their jobs. 

 

Hah 5k battles to know this game? You can play 100k and never know whats going on. You want DDs to spot enemies? Maybe dont camp back with BBs and actually help your DD no? Okay then no spotting for you.

 

Also those 5k battles surely have showed you the way an average CA/BB captain behaviour. That was sarcasm if you didnt notice. Dont tell me you had 5k sarcasms before aswell

[ghostbuster_]

 

Hah 5k battles to know this game? You can play 100k and never know whats going on. You want DDs to spot enemies? Maybe dont camp back with BBs and actually help your DD no? Okay then no spotting for you.

 

Also those 5k battles surely have showed you the way an average CA/BB captain behaviour. That was sarcasm if you didnt notice. Dont tell me you had 5k sarcasms before aswell

like i said, do your job first and than expect help from your team.

[Userext]

like i said, do your job first and than expect help from your team.

 

so i can get killed by the enemy team? You really have no idea do you?

[ghostbuster_]

 

so i can get killed by the enemy team? You really have no idea do you?

 

LOL! you are really funny. so i guess you are one of the IJP DD players which camps even behind BBs, launchs torps from max range and whines about not getting good results. 

[Krizmuz]

It would be fun if Fubuki and Kagero at least outran the cruisers in their respective tier

[S4h3L]

It would be fun if Fubuki and Kagero at least outran the cruisers in their respective tier

 

there is 9 T8 + T9 cruisers and 2 are faster: Atago by 0,5 kn and Donskoi by 1 kn. Ibuki has same max speed. So I think outrunning cruisers is pretty possible. Case closed

[Userext]

 

there is 9 T8 + T9 cruisers and 2 are faster: Atago by 0,5 kn and Donskoi by 1 kn. Ibuki has same max speed. So I think outrunning cruisers is pretty possible. Case closed

 

lets give you 1kn and see if you can run away from a cruiser standing still

Hint: you'll die

 

LOL! you are really funny. so i guess you are one of the IJP DD players which camps even behind BBs, launchs torps from max range and whines about not getting good results. 

 

Arent you a funny guy? No i dont hide behind BBs or CAs. I go out there and fight. Of course i dont expect you to understand this. You know you can still be usefull to your team and do damage without being the way you described, servant... 

[Spellfire40]

 

there is 9 T8 + T9 cruisers and 2 are faster: Atago by 0,5 kn and Donskoi by 1 kn. Ibuki has same max speed. So I think outrunning cruisers is pretty possible. Case closed

 Outruning also dont allow you to maneuver much p. I had a Cleaveland chasing my fubuki halfway across the map once sometimes spoting me with its anoy fighter before some BB finally forced him off.

[DominusEdwardius]

The speed drops to 29.6 knots during a hard turn and something like 31.5 knots in a half turn in the Fubuki/Kagero. I don't think Cruisers loose as much although not having a high tier cruiser I can't really say. I remember one game a spectator commenting that my Fubuki seemed rather slow, amusing thing was I was flat out with engine boost at the time! It is possible to outrun a cruiser yes but it takes a long time to effectively escape them and god only help you if round an corner and run into a cruiser at under 6km.

 

DDs affect the game by many aspects not just with the damage they do. spotting, smoking allies, capping, making enemy turn and show broadside to allies... but BBs can affect the game only by the damage they do. so it doesnt make any sense to compare DD and BB damage. 

Going back a little bit the problem is other nations DDs do all those things better than the IJN ones.

 

Spotting: The USN destroyers have basically for all intents and purposes have the same detection range ( the US is slightly more but the difference is negligible ), this means if the IJN destroyer is spotting up close he is at a much greater risk of accidentally bumping into a US destroyer. The problem then becomes they both detect each other at around 6km at which point the IJN will be evaporated by the USN DD while the IJN will probably try to smoke and run away or maybe attempt a feeble retaliation ( assuming the slow turning guns are even pointing in the right direction!). Overall the USN destroyer is the better scout.

 

Smoking Allies: All DDs can do this, however the USN destroyer smokescreens last longer and generates for a greater period of time hence it is just better at screening allied ships than the IJN DD.
http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?showtopic=66457

 

Capping: Here again the IJN comes off worse. They are the slowest of all DDs meaning it takes longer to react to needing to cap, both the USN and RU DDs are faster and able to reach the caps quicker. Assuming they have made it to the cap they again run into the problem of bumping into a USN destroyer or worse an RU destroyer. The IJN can't effectively contest the cap for this reason as they will flat out loose a gun fight at close quarters in a cap circle. Hence the USN or RU DDs are better here again.

 

Making enemy turn and show broadside to allies: Something all the high tier DDs can do, but again the likes of the Fletcher or Gearing are better at it because the torpedo tubes reloads quicker and hence can "force the enemy to turn" more often although given the torpedoes are arguably better and harder to detect its likely they will just end up killing the enemy.

 

So where does that leave the likes of the high tier IJN DDs most notably the Kagero... The torpedoes are arguably worse than USN DDs, the detectability is the approximately same, they are slower and less manoeuvrable. The IJN probably can win a gun fight against some USN DDs at 8+ km range but the problem there is the USN DDs are detected at around 6km so yeah... Exactly what is it that the IJN DDs do that the other nations don't do better!

 

[ghostbuster_]

 

Going back a little bit the problem is other nations DDs do all those things better than the IJN ones.

 

Spotting: The USN destroyers have basically for all intents and purposes have the same detection range ( the US is slightly more but the difference is negligible ), this means if the IJN destroyer is spotting up close he is at a much greater risk of accidentally bumping into a US destroyer. The problem then becomes they both detect each other at around 6km at which point the IJN will be evaporated by the USN DD while the IJN will probably try to smoke and run away or maybe attempt a feeble retaliation ( assuming the slow turning guns are even pointing in the right direction!). Overall the USN destroyer is the better scout.

kagero has 5.4 km detection range. so he can spot any USN or RU DDs. fubuki can also do that. shimakaze has the same detection with gearing, much better than khaba. hence shimakaze is faster than gearing its better at spotting.

 

Smoking Allies: All DDs can do this, however the USN destroyer smokescreens last longer and generates for a greater period of time hence it is just better at screening allied ships than the IJN DD. 

http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?showtopic=66457

yes USN and RU DDs have better smoke screens.

 

Capping: Here again the IJN comes off worse. They are the slowest of all DDs meaning it takes longer to react to needing to cap, both the USN and RU DDs are faster and able to reach the caps quicker. Assuming they have made it to the cap they again run into the problem of bumping into a USN destroyer or worse an RU destroyer. The IJN can't effectively contest the cap for this reason as they will flat out loose a gun fight at close quarters in a cap circle. Hence the USN or RU DDs are better here again. 

benson and fletcher are faster than fubuki and kagero yes. but they can spot them without being spotted. so that means team can shoot those DDs. shimakaze is way faster than gearing. RU DDs can be spotted from miles away so and USN DD or IJP DD can spot them and let their team shoot at those capping DDs.

 

Making enemy turn and show broadside to allies: Something all the high tier DDs can do, but again the likes of the Fletcher or Gearing are better at it because the torpedo tubes reloads quicker and hence can "force the enemy to turn" more often although given the torpedoes are arguably better and harder to detect its likely they will just end up killing the enemy.

shimakaze has more torpedos. so its the most effective one.

 

So where does that leave the likes of the high tier IJN DDs most notably the Kagero... The torpedoes are arguably worse than USN DDs, the detectability is the approximately same, they are slower and less manoeuvrable. The IJN probably can win a gun fight against some USN DDs at 8+ km range but the problem there is the USN DDs are detected at around 6km so yeah... Exactly what is it that the IJN DDs do that the other nations don't do better!

 

summing up, DDs affects the game more than CAs or BBs with all of those things that they do.

[AttiliusRex]

Outrunning a CA in a slow DD means you need to sail straight away from them, and pretty much have no chance to turn just for a few seconds to launch torps without getting caught broadside on within detection range.

 

Now this might actually be a decent gameplay mechanic, it slightly resembles a destroyer hutning down a submarine -and since IJN DDs kinda have taken the submarines spot and the cruisers are their hardcounters it might not be too wrong.

 

The issue must be that high tier american DDs out-torpedo boats the Kagero torpedo boat -hence making it completly pointless.

[AttiliusRex]

summing up, DDs affects the game more than CAs or BBs with all of those things that they do.

 

And high tier american DDs does all of these things better than IJN ones.

 

But Shimakaze got torpedo wall. Kagero got what?

[DominusEdwardius]

While I agree the Shimakaze is much better off thanks to its high speed and lethal 15x3 torpedo armament, it is also subject to the highest reload times of all the DDs. It is also less stealthy and really quite a big ship! The biggest problem ship though is the Kagero.

 

On the subject of stealth and detection ranges, the fact of the matter is that the difference in spotting is only a couple of hundred meters at most and depending on the crew setup its more than possible for an USN DD to out stealth a IJN DD if said Captain doesn't have the skill. The 500m or so between detection ranges is basically a ships length with the games scale and at most it provides you is a little bit more time to turn and try to get away. In all likelihood though you will still end up getting spotted thanks to the slow rudder shift and large turning radius. Plus if you are spotted at 5.4km you are even more likely to die a horrible and painful death! In addition having the concealment captain skill means using 5 points which could be spent improving other aspects of the ship in an attempt to make it more survivable if it is spotted by another DD or improve its offensive capability. 

 

list of spotting distances of the USN/IJN high tier DDs ( I think I've done the maths right).

Ship	Stock	Concealment System + Camo	Concealment System + Camo + Captain Skill
Fubuki	7	6.11	5.50
Benson	7.4	6.46	5.81
Kagero	6.8	5.93	5.34
Fletcher	7.4	6.46	5.81
Shimakaze	7.6	6.63	5.97
Gearing	7.6	6.63	5.97

[plammbeach]

For those people that cries out of buff to japs dd; You need to realise how easy it is to stealth fire with Jap dds..! - That not more people are using the perk "advance firing training" is out of my understanding.

 

People who say japs/shima has the lowest winrate;! i believe it has more to do with people "not" wanting to play objectives & is only in the game to do high damage numpers;- atleast, that is my observation when playing with and against shimakaze players.

[Takeda92]

For those people that cries out of buff to japs dd; You need to realise how easy it is to stealth fire with Jap dds..! - That not more people are using the perk "advance firing training" is out of my understanding.

 

People who say japs/shima has the lowest winrate;! i believe it has more to do with people "not" wanting to play objectives & is only in the game to do high damage numpers;- atleast, that is my observation when playing with and against shimakaze players.

 

And it is hard to stealth fire with Benson, Fletcher and Gearing with their stealthier torps?

 

The whole point of this thread is because WG made IJN DDs not suitable to play the objectives. Also saying they are easy to play? Every time I play Fubuki I feel like I'm busting my [edited]off compared to Amagi or Nagato.

 

I was fine when I heard IJN DDs are getting shorter torps for more aggressive, yet rewarding playstyle. The problem is: the new playstyle is not rewarding at all, and IJN DDs has nothing unique with no advantages over the other 2 DD lines.

[Userext]

People who say japs/shima has the lowest winrate;! i believe it has more to do with people "not" wanting to play objectives & is only in the game to do high damage numpers;- atleast, that is my observation when playing with and against shimakaze players.

 

Well people of course wouldnt want to play the objective in shima because it is according to devs supposed to be inferior against all ships except stealth torpedoing. hmmm yeah that doesnt make any sense does it?

[plammbeach]

 

Well people of course wouldnt want to play the objective in shima because it is according to devs supposed to be inferior against all ships except stealth torpedoing. hmmm yeah that doesnt make any sense does it?

 

i suppose japs dds is not for everyone... lol!

[plammbeach]

 

And it is hard to stealth fire with Benson, Fletcher and Gearing with their stealthier torps?

 

The whole point of this thread is because WG made IJN DDs not suitable to play the objectives. Also saying they are easy to play? Every time I play Fubuki I feel like I'm busting my [edited]off compared to Amagi or Nagato.

 

I was fine when I heard IJN DDs are getting shorter torps for more aggressive, yet rewarding playstyle. The problem is: the new playstyle is not rewarding at all, and IJN DDs has nothing unique with no advantages over the other 2 DD lines.

If you play a fubuki like an amagi or nagato, i guess you have a problem, and not the ship!.....