dillydoe Players 22 posts 5,344 battles Report post #76 Posted July 4, 2016 T5 : Zuiho sealclubber at T5 ? With the bazillion of AS bogues running around ?? T6 : No !! T7 : 1/1/2 on Ranger could do the trick, rest is stupid. T8 : No !! T9 : No !! T10 : No of course !! If you want to remove squadrons from japanese CV, give them 6 planes per squad !! IJN CV are all about management of lots of weaker squads, USN CV are easier to play and have fewer stronger squads. If you remove between 1/4 and 1/3 of their squads you break the balance. People play Zuiho to cross torp everything, bogues cannot win! Because they cannot do any damage, that's why people seal club in Zuiho. Langley has got a set up. I'm not going into how god aweful the bogue is. After the novelty of having super strong fighters wears off, you realise you are actually not benefitting your team at all lol. Second thing. Japanese planes are much stronger than you think. Tier 9 taiho. 10 fighters. <- they will double team US fighters all day and then engage their TB. 12 torpedo bombers. Average damage (for 3 torpedo hits per squadron) 59,850 10 dive bombers. Idk? They're just there to set fires. And are very accurate... Tier 9 Essex 7 fighters. will be killed by the double team 6 torpedo bombers. Average damage (for 4 torpedo hits) 26,600. These torpedo bombers are very inaccurate and cannot cross torp and are ENGAGED by IJN fighters after the IJN fighters have double teamed and killed the US fighters. 21 dive bombers. Average damage (for about 1 to x5 hits) about 30,000 damage So let's assume, that the 6 torpedoes that US have are always being engaged, because the IJN fighters have double teamed the US fighters and won, with 5 fighters left. US with its 21 DB are doing 30,000 damage, whilst IJN TB are are doing 59,850 damage. That is 100% increase in damage!!! Here again let me show you, flamu's Midway and his Hakuyru. Watch these videos and tell me again how US CV have stronger planes and are easier to play? Flamu's Midway 244k: Flamus Hakuryu 358k (almost 70% increase!! And he did sloppy torpedo drops): Another note: The IJN planes are very fast, rearm fast, and if the IJN planes are shot down they appear on the battlefield again very quickly. The difference in WR is by 4%, US always at the bottom for all ships of each tier, IJN near the top. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pra3y Players 3,021 posts 11,390 battles Report post #77 Posted July 5, 2016 Bogue is certainly not the strongest Cv for its tier, not by a long shot. Langley has the much superiour 1/1/1, Hosho has 1/2/0, both can dish out more raw damage and still retain a fighter to intercept or tie down yours. Stock loadout Bogue with 1/1/0 holds no candle to a Zuiho with its 1/2/1 and the ubiquitious AS Bogues with their 2/0/1 will just wreck your planes (whilst hardly doing any damage on their own, which makes the AS loadout boring as hell to play). Nevermind if you get into a 2vs2 CV game with a t6 CV, both the Independence with its 1/1/1 (not even talking about its AS loadout) and the Ryuujou with its 1/2/2 will roll you over just by sheer numbers of attack aircraft they can throw the enemy. Only way to get a good game in the Bogue damage wise is if you run into an incapable newbie, another strike US CV so he doesn't have fighters to intercept or if the enemy CV is AFK/bot. But anything that isn't a Bogue can just steamroll it if you don't play AS. At later tiers the US CVs can somehow deal with due to the damage potential of the higher tier DBs and the sheer survivability of their planes, but any Strike loadout below tier VIII is just food for any enemy CV with fighters provided they are even remotely competent. If shooting down airplanes was more rewarding with XP and credits, maybe US CVs might have their niche with AS loadouts, but as it stands right now, IJN Cvs are superiour due to the added versatility and strike capacities. People play Zuiho to cross torp everything, bogues cannot win! Because they cannot do any damage, that's why people seal club in Zuiho. Langley has got a set up. I'm not going into how god aweful the bogue is. After the novelty of having super strong fighters wears off, you realise you are actually not benefitting your team at all lol. See all of this is the problem. People have no idea how to actually play a ship to its advantage. No one actually considered how powerful the Bogue actually is in a 1/1/0 setup.Sure Langley may have a seemingly better loadout, yet with its equally slow speed as well slow biplanes and a low hanger capacity its combat eftectiveness is extremely limited. Compared to the Bogue, Zuiho has paper planes. Calling the Zuiho strong is a joke. I've shot down 2,164 planes in my Bogue and it isn't even because I used the AS loadout. I only used that 1 fighter squadron from balance. Then i just wreck damage with the TB squad. Not only do I often get clear sky with 1 fighter squad, I do ton of damage to the enemy ships and get pretty good xp and credit. I steamroll everything that is not an AS Bogue and there have been occasions where i deplane AS Bogues with the balanced loadout. Bogue and Inde are very strong against their IJN counterparts.If people can't use them well enough to do so then that is their inability to play those ship well enough. PS: if you really think the Bogue is bad and can't do crap go look at my Bogue stats. Those results come from soley using the 1/1/0 loadout. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[CPC] NoirLotus [CPC] Quality Poster 2,545 posts 13,085 battles Report post #78 Posted July 5, 2016 People play Zuiho to cross torp everything, bogues cannot win! Because they cannot do any damage, that's why people seal club in Zuiho. Langley has got a set up. I'm not going into how god aweful the bogue is. After the novelty of having super strong fighters wears off, you realise you are actually not benefitting your team at all lol. [snip] Another note: The IJN planes are very fast, rearm fast, and if the IJN planes are shot down they appear on the battlefield again very quickly. The difference in WR is by 4%, US always at the bottom for all ships of each tier, IJN near the top. You complain that high tier USN CV suffer because IJN CV have more fighter squadrons, but Zuiho is OP when it has only 1 fighter squadron to deal with AS Bogues (or 1/2/2 Ruyjo vs AS Independence) ? And I notice that you talk a lot about cross dropping with Japanese CV, but forget to mention that their torp drop pattern is sol loose that the only way to get effective with it. USN TB have a much efficient drop pattern so it's easy to hit with 4 or 5 torps with a single squadron ... IJN planes reload faster because squadron size is lower. It's the same reason Saipan can reload so fast. CV have different gameplays : USN are easy to handle, with monotask flight deck (air superiority or strike). IJN CV have polyvalent flight decks, but they require much more work as you have to deal with more squadrons. In the current metagame, skilled players have a preference for IJN CV, as their skill is always more rewarded with a polyvalent ship. Except for the Ranger, I'm not sure that USN CV need to get buffed, and your proposal to give IJN CV almost the same number of squadrons than the US CV without changing the number of planes per squadron is just ridiculous ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dillydoe Players 22 posts 5,344 battles Report post #79 Posted July 5, 2016 See all of this is the problem. People have no idea how to actually play a ship to its advantage. No one actually considered how powerful the Bogue actually is in a 1/1/0 setup.Sure Langley may have a seemingly better loadout, yet with its equally slow speed as well slow biplanes and a low hanger capacity its combat eftectiveness is extremely limited. Compared to the Bogue, Zuiho has paper planes. Calling the Zuiho strong is a joke. I've shot down 2,164 planes in my Bogue and it isn't even because I used the AS loadout. I only used that 1 fighter squadron from balance. Then i just wreck damage with the TB squad. Not only do I often get clear sky with 1 fighter squad, I do ton of damage to the enemy ships and get pretty good xp and credit. I steamroll everything that is not an AS Bogue and there have been occasions where i deplane AS Bogues with the balanced loadout. Bogue and Inde are very strong against their IJN counterparts.If people can't use them well enough to do so then that is their inability to play those ship well enough. PS: if you really think the Bogue is bad and can't do crap go look at my Bogue stats. Those results come from soley using the 1/1/0 loadout. You complain that high tier USN CV suffer because IJN CV have more fighter squadrons, but Zuiho is OP when it has only 1 fighter squadron to deal with AS Bogues (or 1/2/2 Ruyjo vs AS Independence) ? And I notice that you talk a lot about cross dropping with Japanese CV, but forget to mention that their torp drop pattern is sol loose that the only way to get effective with it. USN TB have a much efficient drop pattern so it's easy to hit with 4 or 5 torps with a single squadron ... IJN planes reload faster because squadron size is lower. It's the same reason Saipan can reload so fast. CV have different gameplays : USN are easy to handle, with monotask flight deck (air superiority or strike). IJN CV have polyvalent flight decks, but they require much more work as you have to deal with more squadrons. In the current metagame, skilled players have a preference for IJN CV, as their skill is always more rewarded with a polyvalent ship. Except for the Ranger, I'm not sure that USN CV need to get buffed, and your proposal to give IJN CV almost the same number of squadrons than the US CV without changing the number of planes per squadron is just ridiculous ... I'm going to answer both of your questions at once. First off you both should play US carriers a bit more to understand that AS set up can shoot down a lot of the enemy planes, but cannot do a lot of damage. Zuiho can shoot down some of your planes and do a lot of damage. To fix this, simply give bogue the 1/1/1 set up. I'm going to explain why Zuiho is one of the seal clubbers of tier 5. 1. Cruisers at low tier do not get the AA cooldown and it is easier to hit cruisers with torpedoes, especially since some cruisers do not have a very good turning radius (such as konigsburg and furutaka) and they cannot equip the module that decreases their rudder shift time. I think this is the main reason... 2. They can cross torp doing 27k damage and one shot most tier 4 and 3. 3. Most players run AS bogue, the damage out put of that ship is pitiful. Your like scratching the paint of any ship you hit and doing around 6,743 on a good hit (x3 Dive bomb hits), whilst the zuiho can one shot all tier 3, most tier 4 (Except for BB) and most tier 5 (except for BB) and finish off anything with dive bombers(the battleships on low health). Zuiho can do 40,000 damage with x6 hits. With torpedo planes of tier 7 speeds(129 knots). US CV can hit with torpedoes, but the US CVs had an accuracy nerf back in November and the Bogue can't set anything on fire after hitting the enemy with a torpedo hit. The independence gets the 1/1/1 and your going to love it! But still out performed by the Ryujo lol (not by much ). 4. THE HIGH TIERS. Higher tier ships get monstrous AA. The upgraded hull on the Pensacola alone, will eat all of the planes for breakfast. Even the Colorado will also Eat planes alive when it has the fully upgraded hull. And North Carolina, Iowa, Montana are very scary ships to bomb. USSR cruisers..... Yeah. It appears that people tend to go back down to tier five Zuiho... US CVs have nothing to go back down to (except I'm going to buy independence again). The only ships that you don't have to worry about are the German cruisers, because they will use the Hydraustic consumable(And IJN battleships, cause they are the targets)... 5. More noobs... 6. Appears top in damage, with very high success rate in winning according to wows.today so I'm making assumptions why it is widely known as the seal clubber of tier 5. Finally. With point number 4 being said, The US CVs do face the same monstrous AA, but there is no ship to go back on to enjoy using strike aircraft (maybe Langley), so US CV carry on... PS: PLEASE READ THIS!!! (I'm using Lexington as the example) High tier US CV is very ugly. The 10,000lbs dive bomb squads do on average, 3,500 to 14,000 dmg (3,500 per Bomb hit!)(10,000 average damage) with 3 dive bomber squadrons that is 30,000 damage. The torpedoes do about 26,000 when you hit 4 torpedoes. Some of the planes are shot down as targeting the lone plane squadron shoots down more of them (Hold control on the Keyboard and multiplies your effective AA by I think 20%, 100% if u have captain skill). The rearm time on the flight deck is long and the planes are slower than the Japanese. Worth mentioning, the US torpedo squadron received a nerf to the accuracy of the torpedo bombers from November. (I'm now using Shokaku as the example) Ok a torpedo plane squadron does 20,000 damage per plane squadron (x3 torpedo hits). There are 2 squadrons, so times 20,000 by 2 = 40,000 damage. A flooding should occur and the Dive bombers come in and do 2,000 damage each (4,000 for the 2 squads), but cause multiple fires.... In theory Lexington should win the damage race with its strike set up, but let me explain why it is losing so bad! Let's start with plane speed. Shokaku's torpedo bombers are 12 knots faster, this means that they strike faster, return faster and flank the enemy ship faster. The Lexington torpedo planes will struggle to get around the enemy ship, allowing the enemy ship to shoot more down. Second off, the Shokaku has 2 fighter squadrons. A fighter squadron can engage your torpedo squadron messing up the attack (You may hit one or if very, very lucky: 2 torpedoes) The second fighter squadron engages your second dive bomber squad. With both the torpedo bomber and a dive bomber being engaged, the US CV does around 20,000 damage while all this happens. The shokaku has shot down all of your planes from the 2 squadrons, done 36,000 or more damage (plus he has set fires, and that will do even more! (600/900 per second on a battleship with 2/3 fires)) is going on the offence again, with the torpedoes because of the short 20 second rearming time on the flight deck (US torp bombers take 40 seconds to reload) and this number can be brought down even further with captain skills and modules, whilst the 2 remaining dive bombers are returning to the ship and the US CV's other plane squadrons (torpedo bomber and dive bomber squadron) are on a 1 minute and 30 second penalty for dying. I MEAN HOW THE HELL DOES EVERYONE THINK THAT THE US CVs ARE MORE SUPERIOR?! SOMEONE EXPLAIN THIS TO ME?! I can explain what happens when you are a fighter Lexington, and the story is thankfully... better, but only if you are good at strafing and manual bombing! This can easily be outdone however. I can also explain the story with Essex and Taiho. That is very ugly and a total mess. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[CPC] NoirLotus [CPC] Quality Poster 2,545 posts 13,085 battles Report post #80 Posted July 6, 2016 Seriously you have no idée of what you are talking about ... Why don't you try to play japanese CV if they are so strong ? Go play Zuiho, you will see how "easy" it is to cover your bombers from an AS Bogue with only 1 fighter squadron, or how many torps hits you can get with japanese TB. Try it !! See how "easy" it is to hit with a bomb when your DB are panicked ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pra3y Players 3,021 posts 11,390 battles Report post #81 Posted July 6, 2016 Your inability to understand how powerful lower tier USN CVs are compared to their IJN counterpart is incredible. I really suggest you go play a couple more games in them before you comment. I don't disagree that USN CVs from the Ranger onwards need some boost. I just diagree with the fact that you find lower tier USN CVs like the Bogue is weak. You don't even need an AS built to suppress a Zuiho. 1 Bogue fighter squadron is more than sufficient to supress and deplane a Zuiho. A Zuiho only had 1 weak fighter squadron that is ok against another Zuiho but cannot fight against USN fighters 1v1. If you understand how to use your fighter dquad with positioning and the strafing ability its not even difficult. Then you get that sweet USN TB. I don't even really understand your part on it being inaccurate. In general, it is not difficult to land 5 out of 6 torp on larger ships.Tier for tier a DD needs only 2 torp to sink. A cruiser 3. Since they have a very tight spread with 6 torps, its is hard to dodge at the last min compared IJN's, which is looser.Do u even know why the Midway ended up with only 1 TB? Cross torping isnt even some almighty instant kill move and can also be dodged. It just gives you a higher chance of hitting stuff. But when you consider that there is actually something called AA in this game and group dropping torps is better than cross droping to keep your planes alive how is that better? If we go back and you say yeah its easier at lower tiers since they have bad AA then i say to you my fighters will just eat them. You think a Zuiho have enough planes to fight with me? Also having an extra DB squad would be nice, but not having it on the Bogue makes no difference for me, at least at that tier. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dillydoe Players 22 posts 5,344 battles Report post #82 Posted July 6, 2016 Yes apologies I went on a bit strong... I just thought how can the US CVs be down at 48% win rate at every tier whilst IJN CVs are 52% win rate at every tier. Those were terrible ideas, and the results I found were a bit of a shock to me - I have completely scraped those ideas, please give this a second chance and review these new ideas: tier 4: no change tier 5: Bogue should get 1/1/1 tier 6: No change tier 7: (need help with this one, just a suggestion) Ranger should get 1/1/3 (add a fighter to the strike) tier 8: Lexington should get back it's 2/1/1 ( there was nothing wrong with it, and if anything, it needed a buff anyway.) tier 9: Essex should get the same loadout as Midway 2/1/2 tier 10: no change With that, remove the US torpedo Accuracy nerf from all US CVs that they put in place in November, so that the US torpedo planes can be more accurate and keep up with the damage race against the IJN CVs. I've created another topic called new CV ideas. Again I hope everyone is not mad, I was shocked at the figures I calculated with US DB and was really disappointed... I hope you can forgive me and consider these changes to the US CVs as viable options Thank you Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gefreiter_Fritz Players 617 posts 5,483 battles Report post #83 Posted July 7, 2016 I would vote for: 1.) An additional 1-1-2 Setup for Lexi and Ranger, 1-1-1 additional for Bogue. As my Essex is barely more than stock, I have no Idea for her and Midway. 2.) The drop for DBs on US CVs manuall and manuall under panic should be buffed by 10%-20% or something like that. 3.) AA consumable should be removed from ALL CVs, that is what teamplay and CAs are for. They could maybe get a fighterplane compareable to CAs/BBs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dillydoe Players 22 posts 5,344 battles Report post #84 Posted July 8, 2016 (edited) All you're doing is giving the IJN carriers useless fighters, meaning now that around 66% of their deck is filled with annoyingly useless planes. All you'll do is ignore the fundamental carrier problem and it'll result in average players quitting the game. Powerful players like Reyte or Aeroon couldn't care less about direct fighter fights because they always strafe anyways so you'll either change nothing and drive USN carrier win rates even lower than before as only the best IJN carrier players remain in the game or you'll have to nerf the already weak IJN strafe below useless. The win rates of carriers right now aren't dictated by the relative strength of the fighters, they're dictated by the strength of the strike aircraft and the USN strike aircraft are rather unreliable which leads to the overall poor performance. What you're suggesting is making it so that 7 fighters will win against 10 fighters of the exact same tier, which is quite frankly a terrible idea. The Lexington is more powerful than the Shokaku, the unwillingness of most players to use manual drops will not change this fact. The problem with the USN carriers is that they're always more powerful than the IJN counterparts, but they're far less consistent. Good players want their skills to matter as much as possible, so they pick the class where their skills dictates the victory or defeat. This is why Shokaku is the carrier of choice in team battles and why she has a significantly higher number of more talented players. USN carriers aren't weak, they're impractical. Right now, I think the best thing that can be done to the carriers is to lower the USN dive bomber damage on all tiers apart from the lowest tiers then significantly buff their accuracy so they can actually hit ships. Whilst the carriers will lose their power, they'll gain consistency which might attract better players to the USN carriers and raise their win rate again. Changing the relative effectiveness of the fighters is just a useless fix that will only serve to globally lower carrier damage and appeal across the board. Just saying that I have just played against Aerroon and he has complimented on how I play my Essex.... Cause to be honest I did tie him down at B ;) My team got picked off one by one.... I would say the reason why he wouldn't care about how the fighters are balanced is cause he enjoys the striking ships more and is unchallenged in what he can do in his Taiho....Here is the video, I do 163K damage, he does 60K damage, but plays very well! and he agrees 2/1/2 for Essex is good, cause Taiho is much, much better! (His words!) My other suggestions are good too! Here is the youtube video: And here are my results for that match: http://wowreplays.com/Replay/11143-Christopher_Dilworth-Trap Seriously you have no idée of what you are talking about ... Why don't you try to play japanese CV if they are so strong ? Go play Zuiho, you will see how "easy" it is to cover your bombers from an AS Bogue with only 1 fighter squadron, or how many torps hits you can get with japanese TB. Try it !! See how "easy" it is to hit with a bomb when your DB are panicked ... Oh yeah? I bet I would be able to screw over an AS Bogue in a Zuiho, but then again I could screw over a Zuiho in a AS bogue as well as they would be noobs. I'm a very good CV captain and know what I'm doing! Proof? Just played Aerroon who is a notorious CV captain, and he complimented me haha! Here is the youtube video: CV And here are my results... http://wowreplays.com/Replay/11143-Christopher_Dilworth-Trap I'm just trying to balance out the tiers. My suggestions were a bit off, but my latest suggestions are golden now! The: tier 4: no change tier 5: bogue should get 1/1/1 tier 6: no cha........ That list on page 5 Edited July 8, 2016 by Christopher_Dilworth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[CPC] NoirLotus [CPC] Quality Poster 2,545 posts 13,085 battles Report post #85 Posted July 8, 2016 Oh yeah? I bet I would be able to screw over an AS Bogue in a Zuiho, but then again I could screw over a Zuiho in a AS bogue as well as they would be noobs. I'm a very good CV captain and know what I'm doing! Proof? Just played Aerroon who is a notorious CV captain, and he complimented me haha! Here is the youtube video: And here are my results... http://wowreplays.com/Replay/11143-Christopher_Dilworth-Trap Doing well with a CV in 1 game doesn't make you a good CV captain. You have around 50% win in all your CV games and only 37% with Bogue so I highly doubt that you could screw over anyone in Zuiho. You are an average CV player and you never tried the japanese CVs. So you really have no idea on what is their strength and what could be changed to give a little boost to US CV ... I'm myself an average CV player but I tried both lines to make my opinion. And Defensive AA consumable will not be removed. Devs want ot give some consumables to CV and CV sniping has too much influence on the result of the game to be kept in game ... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pra3y Players 3,021 posts 11,390 battles Report post #86 Posted July 9, 2016 (edited) @ Christopher_Dilworth Ok I'm kinda reposting this image from another post. Sorry for the glaring photo images. It was a 2v2 CV match with 2 Zuihos from the opposing side against an ally Zuiho and me in a Bogue. I have the balance loadout while all the Zuihos ran the 1/2/1 load out. Even though it was a lost, I manage to take down 34 enemy planes and also did at least a 100,000 in damage from the TBs. Enemy CVs manage to only sink 2 ships in total, while between me and the ally Zuiho we sank 6. The moral of this story is there are quite a few people who assume that at low tier like the Bogue (tier 5+6 USN CVs. Maybe even 7 and 8) you have to either play AS and sacrifice damage to fight off enemy planes and control the skies or sacrifice any fighter capability and go full on strike to get a lot of damage. They discard away that 3rd option, as seen in quite a few post on this topic. The fact of the matter is tier for tier the Bogue is pretty powerful running the balance load out. I only needed 1 fighter squad to get clear sky and I was going up against 8 enemy CV squads. At the same time I can still land 15 torp hits doing about 100106 damage. Can an AS Bogue or Strike Bouge do this? Sure an AS Bogue can probably shoot down even more planes and a Strike Bouge could do more damage but I can do both jobs with a decent result. While it would be great to get a DB for the 1/1/0 load out I think balance wise it'll be tough, since you also have to consider the amount of planes a Bogue can carry. Right now with the 1/1/0 the Bogue has spare for 8 planes each (total is 28 planes, including those "on duty). Adding the DB will just give you lesser spare planes for your other squadrons, with 10 planes in reserve and probably 3 planes for each squadron with 1 squadron getting an extra spare plane. So no Thank you I rather not have that DB. Having 6 spare fighters and TBs does wonder at that tier. Also note above that a Bogue used well can crush a Zuiho. 1v1 unless the Zuiho Captain is very good it is near impossible to do a lot of damage in a game against even a 1/1/0 Bogue. I'll leave you with better quality images. Tell me if the Bogue is really that under performing. Remember, 1 fighter and 1 TB squad. On a side note an AS Bogue will screw you over if you play a Zuiho. So hard to play IJN against AS USN CVs at low tier. Edited July 9, 2016 by pra3y Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dillydoe Players 22 posts 5,344 battles Report post #87 Posted July 13, 2016 pra3y, you are right. The bogue does not have a lot of replacements. So, sounds to me that if you're finding it great to work with and a very good point of that if bogue had 1/1/1, it would probably run out of planes. So keeping 1/1/0 is actually a good idea to stay as it is! I'm leaving tier 5 alone, but tier 7, 8 and 9.... Ranger, Lexington and Essex need work. How do you post pictures on the forum? I can prove that I'm good in Ranger, Lexington, and Essex. 284K damage in Essex and we lost lol. 150K damage in Ranger and we lost lol. Don't have any games on Lexington, but have managed clear sky and witherer with fighter set up a couple of times. I can show these results, but don't know how to upload images, can someone let me know how? And also, this is for NoirLotus. I have looked at your stats. You have 60% wr with most of your IJN CV(Except Hosho...). With your American CV, and you only have 2, but your Independence is 39% and your Langley is around 53%. I'm assuming you skipped bogue... I played Langley when it was 1/1/0, which is the reason for my wr in that.... But this is the point I am trying to prove, its easier to win in an IJN CV than in a US CV and your stats actually show that you are doing significantly better in the IJN CVs than the US CVs. And I never said anything about removing the AA defense for carriers, I think this is a great change, but not sure if this would be a good idea for lower tiers as the CVs have low amount of planes in the hanger, but never said anything about AA CV defense cooldown and actually am in favour of that for high tier, just need to improve US CVs a bit for high tier.... (I believe you intended to answer another person for the AA cooldown bit) Anyway NoirLotus, you are only on hiryu and independence. I can say stuff like I do 20k+ more average damage in my ranger than your hiryu, but you have 66% wr and I have 52% wr, blah blah blah.... It is very long what I have to say about that. This also kindof proves that the US CVs are suffering, but I am basing my experience with saipan to compare on how IJN CVs are. Weak squadrons, torp bombers + fighters, fast rearms, fast planes (hiryu received the torp bomber speed nerf, this doesn't continue so don't worry....) and decent performing fighters.... The rearm on the saipan is blisteringly fast! So with eliminating the bogue suggestion, here are my suggestions: Ranger: 1/1/2 or 1/1/3 (Ranger's hangar capacity will balance damage output in a way, ok with either, ranger is a mess) Lexington: 2/1/1 like it was before. Essex: 2/1/2 (Aeroon agrees with this. He hasn't read my other suggestions.) And of course, buff the US CV's torpedo accuracy. (Reverse the nerf they put on from November) So for pra3y, both games look amazing for your bogue! I've not been in bogue in a while, nor am I touching that lol. Have bought my independence back tho. When I've bought everything, I'll seal club lol. I mean 1/1/1 for independence was the highlight for me: and ranger even tho its pretty bad, I used strike ranger (terrified whenever I saw a hiryu, so personal opinion there). Leaving low tier for now. It was only bogue that I thought could be changed anyway (with torpedo accuracy buffs), but the point of the bogue you made of having not enough planes in the hangar is enough to make me back off and focus more on the CVs that I definitely know that need an improvement! These are Ranger, Lexington and Essex. Now how can I put photos up on the blog? Do this so that I can prove that I am a decent player and to show the win rates over the past month (the photos at the beginning are actually for all time.... My mistake....) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[CLADS] olmedreca Players 226 posts 5,719 battles Report post #88 Posted July 14, 2016 I wish there was a way to view CV stats per loadout. CV is all about its planes so each loadout is practically a completely different ship, especially in US line. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dillydoe Players 22 posts 5,344 battles Report post #89 Posted July 14, 2016 (edited) For the people of WG if they read this, here are my final suggestions: (Ranger is difficult to cure, but this is what I think should happen with Ranger...) Ranger should get 1/1/2 or 1/1/3 this will replace the 1/1/1 Lexington should get 2/1/1 this will replace the 1/1/1 Essex should get 2/1/2 this will replace the 2/1/1 Reverse/Remove patch affecting US torpedo bombers from patch 0.5.1. (Ie. make them accurate again) (KEY: Essex 2/1/1 means: 2 fighter squadrons, 1 torpedo bomber squadron and 1 dive bomber squadron) The nerf imposed from November should be reversed or removed as higher tier ships have very good AA now and planes are being shot down pretty quickly at the minute... It is very difficult to get US CV's torpedoes off as they have to go around the ship to launch a successful torpedo run on a broadside of a ship.... Ie. the planes are slower than IJN, they can be targeted as there is only one squadron, and that launch zone increase causes the planes to have to fly around again and attack where the ship was, not where it is going and I'm hoping to deter IJN CV captains from saying this is fine, because it isn't. Of course the captain can adjust the course of aim, but the planes can fly around again if miscalculated again and this can happen fairly often... Here is the nerf description from the patch notes, I have copied and pasted from patch notes of 0.5.1. Please reverse/remove this change: "Changes have been made to US carriers. For US torpedo planes, the launch zone for torpedoes in manual mode has been moved further from the attack circle, and this distance increases with the carrier's tier and planes speed. Due to this change, torpedo spreads are now a bit wider, and it will be harder to attack the enemy by dropping torpedoes right under the broadside of his ship. This means that the effectiveness of manual launch for US torpedo planes will decrease, and this change will most noticeably affect higher tiers vehicles." If this nerf is reversed/removed, the US carriers will have more accurate torpedo drops (how it was before November for all of the US Carrier tiers) and the US CVs need this to keep up the damage race against the IJN CVs. And also the change with patch 0.5.1 to the accuracy of the US carrier's torpedoes is currently not needed as the 2 very strong torpedo bomber squadrons that the US Carriers had at tier 9 and at tier 10 have been reduced to 1 squadron of fighters, 1 squadron of torpedo bombers and 3 squadrons of dive bombers. With the AA buff to all ships, the US CV's torpedo bombers need the accuracy. WG I am hoping your familiar with this website: https://warships.today/vehicles/eu When looking at this website you will see the imbalance of win rate between IJN and US CVs for the past 2 weeks(There's a drop down list to switch from all time to 2 weeks). The website shows that the US CVs are always at the bottom for the past 2 weeks in terms of win rate. The US CVs have been at the absolute bottom in terms of win rate for at least a month(exceptions Langley, Bogue and to an extent Independence). I don't want to carry on too much about this... Just letting you know why this needs to be done. I will provide a ticket fairly soon, but the above suggestion is my final suggestion. Other suggestions will be small tweaks, but pretty sure most players will be happy to let this change happen. YouTube star Aerroon agreed with the Essex change I proposed, and I am sure he would agree with my suggestion for the Lexington, the US torpedoes nerf to be reverse/removed from patch 0.5.1 and maybe the ranger change, but this is a tough one and I believe my suggestion for this is good enough. Here is the video for proof of the match I had against Aerroon: finally this change will most likely prevent US CV captains from quitting the game. Again the changes I'm requesting in short are to the: Ranger gets 1/1/2 or 1/1/3 instead of 1/1/1 Lexington gets 2/1/1 instead of 1/1/1 Essex gets 2/1/2 instead of 2/1/1 Reverse/Remove patch affecting US torpedo bombers from patch 0.5.1. (Ie. make them accurate again) (KEY: Essex 2/1/1 means: 2 fighter squadrons, 1 torpedo bomber squadron and 1 dive bomber squadron) That is all. I am sure that this is the answer. this is from an experienced US CV captain that has been playing the game since September. (I'm currently on Essex and I wasn't even using premium anything to get there, now I am using premium products from the premium shop. I have an Atago, Saipan and premium time as things that I have bought as well as a few doubloons...), all the best and I hope that you guys can implement these changes. Thanks. Edited July 14, 2016 by Christopher_Dilworth Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pra3y Players 3,021 posts 11,390 battles Report post #90 Posted July 14, 2016 I wish there was a way to view CV stats per loadout. CV is all about its planes so each loadout is practically a completely different ship, especially in US line. Actually there is. Its kinda difficult to remember for every CV and load out but if you take note of what load out has what number on the aircraft stat you can tell. For example when I play my Bogue (1/1/0) I know that when I compare it to an opposing Bogue (Both of us have upgraded hulls and planes. Un-upgraded will show a different number) if his aircraft stat has +4 it is an AS load out. +3 would tell me that it is a strike load out. For IJN CVs usually its kinda fixed since most people will usually use the IJN strike load out and occasionally the IJN AS build. To be honest even if you send a ticket to WG I doubt much will even change. CVs are one of the class that receive the least love apart from CAs (I feel). Also you don't really have to post your personal stats on the forum. Pretty sure people will actually look at it when you post stuff unless you make it private. In any case here is a short guide from the American forum: http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/4693-how-to-post-images-on-our-forum/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Syrchalis Players 1,401 posts 3,820 battles Report post #91 Posted July 15, 2016 What you all need to do is just stop playing US CVs. WG only cares for statistics, nothing of what you say here matters to them, even if it's true. If they see that noone plays US CVs anymore they will start doing something. It's the same as with the bundles. Noone buys overpriced bundles with useless crap just to get a ship that doesn't even cost half of the bundle price. What happened? WG now sells ships outside of bundles. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheIdesOfMarch93 Players 214 posts 11,481 battles Report post #92 Posted July 25, 2016 I just rage sold my Essex because it was simply disgusting how bad the imbalance between US carriers and IJN ones were at high tiers, before I even get to the fact that high-tier AA is simply OP. Bought my Bogue back, probably going to bring her out for a spin only once in a while when I feel like it. Totally given up on CV gameplay now, I thought my patience had run thin with Lexington and getting placed into T10 matches with her but Essex takes the cake for me. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[SCRUB] lup3s Players 5,744 posts 32,730 battles Report post #93 Posted July 25, 2016 I cringe every time I see a CV player using the AS loadout in either Bogue or Independence. I don't get why you would prefer slightly more plane kills over a shitload more damage. But I'm always happy to see an enemy Bogue / Independence using the AS loadout I don't need to care about TBs and most CV captains don't bother to use their planes to spot ships. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
khazz_1 Players 50 posts 2,833 battles Report post #94 Posted July 26, 2016 Intro: US CV is impractical because carriers are always against each other for a start. Which means that they are put up against IJN carriers. When looking at the player statistics, IJN carriers perform significantly better throughout the tiers regarding win rates and damage (look at screenshots attached). Main Problem: I reckon the difference is due to IJN's above average performing fighters. Now why I say above average is because they're small squads that can challenge a US air superiority set up, but most cases get destroyed after engaging for a while(wait for it). However, IJN have a really good strike set up. So after US cv has killed the fighters, the IJN bombers have already accomplished their run with their torp bombers causing a fair amount of damage and the IJN cv rinses and repeats against an air superiority US cv. The air superiority US CV's bombers are not nearly as effective and simply cannot compete. Against a strike US cv (which in some cases have no fighters), the IJN fighters attack the multiple bomber squadrons, disrupting the US CV run, whilst the IJN CV is carrying out a strike with their torp bombers that once again causes massive amounts of damage. Solution: So, with the IJN having great torp bombers that deal a large amount of damage, and above average fighters (cause some US CV don't have fighters at all with strike set up) My suggestion is to nerf the IJN Fighter's HP to oblivion! As an example I will use the Taiho ship characteristics, nerf the IJN fighter HP from 1,860 to somewhere down to 1,400 or even 1,300! IJN cv captains will be forced to utilize the strafe ability(I use that all the time anyway and is very effective!). So that 2 squadrons of IJN fighters can still take on a US fighter squadron, but the IJN fighters will suffer significant loses if not all, so that the US fighter squadron when strike set up (Essex) can continue to try and harass the 3 torp bombers the taiho receives whilst the US cv can do its damage with its "buffed(lol)" dive bombers and the one torp bomber squad (stupidly inaccurate anyway x'D). I thought about nerfing the IJN fighters loadout, but they'll still be a bit too strong, they'll kill most of US CV fighters and still carry out the bombing run. The IJN CV bias, is just too extreme! So with that, I welcome ideas... (you must have independence to have valuable input, as this is when the trend really becomes apparent) This occurs throughout the tiers, particularly tier 5 to now 10(midway actually looks decent, but not worth the grind...). I am also attaching a respectably ship, the Tirpitz showing how badly the IJN CVs needs nerfing! (all this excludes Saipan which is a great CV!) The screenshots are from: https://warships.today/vehicles/eu WOW hold on a second, CV's actually run fighters ? Since when , most every battle I ahve seen it is all bombers on both sides and half of those bombers only on my team lol. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aleksandrov2 Players 147 posts 3,529 battles Report post #95 Posted August 26, 2016 (edited) I don't think they should nerf IJN fighters. The reality is as said before: fighter US loadout do very little damage and can't stop IJN bombers doing tons of damage because IJN carrier just lock your planes with his. But if you have strike loadout as US carrier then his fighters will destroy you. Main solution in my opinion is to buff the US dive bombers. I am talking from my own experience althought I don't know about tier 8,9,10 US CV (I don't have them). But on lower and middle tier US CV they should definately buff DB damage and maybe make them little more accurate too, since IJN DB are sooo accurate. Another suggestion is to change horrible setups in Ranger and Lexington. Make option of using 1/1/2 setup. This is kind of balanced US setup. Right now you have strike 0/1/3 and fighter 2/0/2. By giving 1/1/2 setup Ranger and Lexington would have somethink to counter the IJN. I would suggest buffing US fighters so that 6 US fighters vs 8 IJN fighters would be kind of fair and the 1 TB and 2 DB could be enought strike power to compete with IJN CV (assuming US dive bombers are buffed and do more damage) This should not be hard and would solve the middle tier carrier problem in my opinion. Edited August 26, 2016 by aleksandrov2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dillydoe Players 22 posts 5,344 battles Report post #96 Posted August 29, 2016 I don't think they should nerf IJN fighters. The reality is as said before: fighter US loadout do very little damage and can't stop IJN bombers doing tons of damage because IJN carrier just lock your planes with his. But if you have strike loadout as US carrier then his fighters will destroy you. Main solution in my opinion is to buff the US dive bombers. I am talking from my own experience althought I don't know about tier 8,9,10 US CV (I don't have them). But on lower and middle tier US CV they should definately buff DB damage and maybe make them little more accurate too, since IJN DB are sooo accurate. Another suggestion is to change horrible setups in Ranger and Lexington. Make option of using 1/1/2 setup. This is kind of balanced US setup. Right now you have strike 0/1/3 and fighter 2/0/2. By giving 1/1/2 setup Ranger and Lexington would have somethink to counter the IJN. I would suggest buffing US fighters so that 6 US fighters vs 8 IJN fighters would be kind of fair and the 1 TB and 2 DB could be enought strike power to compete with IJN CV (assuming US dive bombers are buffed and do more damage) This should not be hard and would solve the middle tier carrier problem in my opinion. Well good news, they saw this post and have done something with the fighters, added 30% ammunition capacity to the USN fighters with patch 0.5.11. Which is excellent! I also welcome the patch with the cruiser's AA consumable and Hydroaucustic, That is a beautiful change for cruisers . (Bad for carriers) - Anyway, so with your ideas, which I think are good! (Essex still needs 2/1/2, no question about that there...) I think that using your ideas a 1/1/2 Lexington can work, but the US CVs needs to have that rearm time on the flight deck reduced (to have the time required to prepare to take off reduced). The IJN high tier CVs have 19 seconds rearm time for fighters and 26 seconds for DB and TB. The US high tier CVs have 38 seconds for fighters (that's double the time for IJN CVs fighters to prepare to take off) and 41 seconds for TB and DB (57% more time required to prepare to take off compared to the IJN DB and TB). This reduced time required to prepare for takeoff will apply to Torpedo Bombers, Dive Bombers and Fighters and all be reduced by 10 seconds. - Should be balanced enough, but once again this is for WG: I welcome the new patch! Great step in the right direction! (The 30% ammunition patch which is coming) suggestions: Reduce Rearm time for US CV squadrons by 10 seconds. (US Squadrons are at 40 seconds and IJN squadrons are at 19 seconds and 26 seconds(DB and TB)) <- Do not buff the IJN CVs in compensation for the US CV rearm buff. THE IJN CVs CURRENTLY HAVE NO COMPETITION (Except Saipan). Essex needs 2/1/2 even after this patch. Lexington and Ranger could live with 1/1/2 Finally: that US torpedo bomber accuracy. Reverse that patch from 0.5.1 please. But out of everything, the most important thing to balance the CVs that will run very well with the new patch is to reduce the TIME REQUIRED TO PREPARE FOR TAKEOFF for the US CVs by 10 SECONDS. This lets the US CVs KEEP UP! I know that WG are listening and thank you! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aleksandrov2 Players 147 posts 3,529 battles Report post #97 Posted August 31, 2016 (edited) Well good news, they saw this post and have done something with the fighters, added 30% ammunition capacity to the USN fighters with patch 0.5.11. Which is excellent! I also welcome the patch with the cruiser's AA consumable and Hydroaucustic, That is a beautiful change for cruisers . (Bad for carriers) - Anyway, so with your ideas, which I think are good! (Essex still needs 2/1/2, no question about that there...) I think that using your ideas a 1/1/2 Lexington can work, but the US CVs needs to have that rearm time on the flight deck reduced (to have the time required to prepare to take off reduced). The IJN high tier CVs have 19 seconds rearm time for fighters and 26 seconds for DB and TB. The US high tier CVs have 38 seconds for fighters (that's double the time for IJN CVs fighters to prepare to take off) and 41 seconds for TB and DB (57% more time required to prepare to take off compared to the IJN DB and TB). This reduced time required to prepare for takeoff will apply to Torpedo Bombers, Dive Bombers and Fighters and all be reduced by 10 seconds. - Should be balanced enough, but once again this is for WG: I welcome the new patch! Great step in the right direction! (The 30% ammunition patch which is coming) suggestions: Reduce Rearm time for US CV squadrons by 10 seconds. (US Squadrons are at 40 seconds and IJN squadrons are at 19 seconds and 26 seconds(DB and TB)) <- Do not buff the IJN CVs in compensation for the US CV rearm buff. THE IJN CVs CURRENTLY HAVE NO COMPETITION (Except Saipan). Essex needs 2/1/2 even after this patch. Lexington and Ranger could live with 1/1/2 Finally: that US torpedo bomber accuracy. Reverse that patch from 0.5.1 please. But out of everything, the most important thing to balance the CVs that will run very well with the new patch is to reduce the TIME REQUIRED TO PREPARE FOR TAKEOFF for the US CVs by 10 SECONDS. This lets the US CVs KEEP UP! I know that WG are listening and thank you! Yes your sollution is a good one. More I think about this more I agree that reducing the required time for take off for 10 seconds would be beneficial for balancing US CVs. Great suggestion Christopher! If we look at the empirical data US CVs have a lot lower win ratings than IJN CVs. In my opinion this is due to many new and average players who go for fighter heavy setups and they simply can't do enought damage with their dive bombers (their damage should be buffed), but at the same time IJN CVs will lock their fighters and outdamage them with torpedo bombers. Even if you go for strike US CV you are still at the dissadvantage because you don't have fighters (but IJN have). So if WG wants to enable US CVs to improve their stats they should buff their dive bombers. This would increase damage done by strike and fighter US CVs. Some people were pointing that lower tier US CVs ( tier 4,5,6) have balanced setups and I agree. Their balanced setups are kind of good but still YOU ARE LESS FLEXIBLE THAN IJN CVs and so they still do less damage overall. Again sollution: buff US dive bombers. But when you look at the ranger and lexington they don't have balanced setup, why??? I mean personally I don't understand why they removed 2/1/1 setup from lexington but at least give both of them balanced 1/1/2 setup so they will be able to fight with IJN CVs. I would leave stock ranger setup as 1/1/1 and then you can go for 2/0/2 or 1/1/2. But if you really like strike I would leave 0/1/3 on it. On lexington I would leave 1/1/2 as stock setup, but you can go either 2/1/1 or 0/1/3. Well WG if you don't want to give lexington 2/1/1 at least give it same setup as I described for ranger. About essex should have 2/1/2 setup I don't know because I don't have essex. So to sum it up: BUFF LOWER AND MIDDLE TIER DIVE BOMBERS DAMAGE, GIVE RANGER AND LEXI 1/1/2, REDUCE THE TIME FOR TAKEOFF OF PLANES ON US CVs FOR 10 SECONDS (as suggested by Christopher) and my proposal is to give lexington back its 2/1/1 setup As said before WG 30% buff to US fighter ammo is step into right direction, but don't promote just fighter heavy US CVs setup. Buff DB and give us balanced US setups in tier 7 and 8. Edited August 31, 2016 by aleksandrov2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WebSpawn Beta Tester 120 posts 4,876 battles Report post #98 Posted August 31, 2016 Lot's of things must have changed since the last time I've played a CV then. In my experience US fighters are OP that wipe any IJN plane they come across. Especially if there's a Tier difference Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aleksandrov2 Players 147 posts 3,529 battles Report post #99 Posted August 31, 2016 Lot's of things must have changed since the last time I've played a CV then. In my experience US fighters are OP that wipe any IJN plane they come across. Especially if there's a Tier difference Well right now it is rare to face higher tier carriers since there is mirror matchmaking. You must have been absent from the CVs for a long time Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WebSpawn Beta Tester 120 posts 4,876 battles Report post #100 Posted August 31, 2016 Well right now it is rare to face higher tier carriers since there is mirror matchmaking. You must have been absent from the CVs for a long time That's what I said didn't I? And a lot having changed must be an understatement if the IJN now overpower US CV fighterplanes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
