Fan made Italian tech tree

[Deamon93]

1 minute ago, piritskenyer said:

@Deamon93 There is no way the baseline reload on 8x 8" is under 4 r/m. Just no way. I'm talking gameplay wise ofc.

I took the historical value, when I'm done compiling all the numbers I'll try to guestimate plausible gameplay stats. After all firepower is but an aspect of a ship and I would rather look at the whole picture, to avoid overbuff certain areas when it might not be warranted. It will take some time though, especially when protection is involved (I could use navypedia but not every ship is listed there, which complicates matters)

[piritskenyer]

5 minutes ago, Deamon93 said:

I took the historical value, when I'm done compiling all the numbers I'll try to guestimate plausible gameplay stats. After all firepower is but an aspect of a ship and I would rather look at the whole picture, to avoid overbuff certain areas when it might not be warranted. It will take some time though, especially when protection is involved (I could use navypedia but not every ship is listed there, which complicates matters)

 

Gameplay wise, I'd say 4.6-5 r/m/g is realistic for Zara, not sure which. Taking protection into account, I want to say 4.6, if I take lack of torps, I wanna say 5. I'll do a copout and call it 4.8 (12.5 second reload)

[x_Hasso_von_Manteuffel_x]

As i already wrote, to simple convert the real data does not work anymore. This work maybe back then, as the game was in the closed beta, but today we are far away from this ... other nice example for this are the 28cm SK C/30 L/52 of the Graf Spee in compare with the 28cm SK C/34 L/54,5 of the Scharnhorst ...

Here the C/28 guns got a RoF from 3 shoots per minute and a AP max damage from 8400 while the C/34 guns get also 3 shoots per minute and a AP max damage from just 7600 ... in reality the C/28 guns had a avarage RoF from just 2,5 shoots per minute while the C/34 guns had there 3,5 shoots per minute. Not to mention that the alpha damage also makes not much sense if we look at the real gun data and use the formulas ... also not to mention that the Scharnhorst lack ingame of  topspeed (should be 31,5 knots and not just 30) as well as they lack ingame on firing range (should be 23,8km and not just 19,9) ...

So, as i wrote, the only problem on the main armament are the RoF ... and that's a thing Wargaming already balanced on other ships on a heavy way ... so it's absolute no problem

And so i just can repead, from there basics the Trento is Tier 7 material and the Zara is Tier 8 material, and that's what i guarantee you, what you will get in this game ;)

[Deamon93]

4 hours ago, DeadMemories said:

As i already wrote, to simple convert the real data does not work anymore. This work maybe back then, as the game was in the closed beta, but today we are far away from this ... other nice example for this are the 28cm SK C/30 L/52 of the Graf Spee in compare with the 28cm SK C/34 L/54,5 of the Scharnhorst ...

Here the C/28 guns got a RoF from 3 shoots per minute and a AP max damage from 8400 while the C/34 guns get also 3 shoots per minute and a AP max damage from just 7600 ... in reality the C/28 guns had a avarage RoF from just 2,5 shoots per minute while the C/34 guns had there 3,5 shoots per minute. Not to mention that the alpha damage also makes not much sense if we look at the real gun data and use the formulas ... also not to mention that the Scharnhorst lack ingame of  topspeed (should be 31,5 knots and not just 30) as well as they lack ingame on firing range (should be 23,8km and not just 19,9) ...

So, as i wrote, the only problem on the main armament are the RoF ... and that's a thing Wargaming already balanced on other ships on a heavy way ... so it's absolute no problem

And so i just can repead, from there basics the Trento is Tier 7 material and the Zara is Tier 8 material, and that's what i guarantee you, what you will get in this game ;)

WG did a lot of funky things but doesn't change the fact that the French tend to respect the various formulas and are much more relevant in the construction of the Italian line, simply because the two are historically linked (many ships wouldn't have been designed the way they were without the other). 

 

So? Duca d'Aosta has 1000 m/s muzzle velocity when historically she only got 850 m/s, that was a way (not the only one, she has a lot of funkyness) to push her up and gain more cash per unit sold. Duca degli Abruzzi had to go at tier VII and get even more funky due to the fact she would fight with much better CLs. 

 

Have you seen how much do you need to buff RoF to make Zara comparable to the latest tier VIII cruisers? Do you think that is better than dropping her to tier VII and put a replacement there? 

 

Have you provided arguments in favour of your statement? No because makes no sense to see Trento at a higher tier than Pensacola and Zara at a higher tier than Algerie, as proven by the numbers. 

 

To further prove the point here's the comparison between Trento, with her RoF buffed only to 4.5 rpm, and the tier VIs

 

	1	2	3	4	5	6	7
Ship	Trento	La Galissoniere	Pensacola	Aoba	Budyonny	Nuernberg	Leander
Tier	VI	VI	VI	VI	VI	VI	VI
Gun used	203/50	152/55	203/55	203/50	152/57	150/60	152/50
Number of guns on broadside	8	9	10	6	9	9	8
Rounds per minute	4,5	6,67	4	5,45	7,5	10	8
AP per shell	4600	3300	4600	4700	3300	3900	3100
HE per shell	2700	2200	2800	3300	2200	1700	0
Alpha Damage (AP)	36800	29700	46000	28200	29700	35100	24800
Alpha Damage (HE)	21600	19800	28000	19800	19800	15300	0
Damage per minute (AP)	165600	198099	184000	153690	222750	351000	198400
Damage per minute (HE)	97200	132066	112000	107910	148500	153000	0
Burn chance	13,00%	12,00%	14,00%	17,00%	12,00%	8,00%	0,00%
Difference(%, relative to ship 1)
Number of guns on broadside	0,00%	12,50%	25,00%	-25,00%	12,50%	12,50%	0,00%
Rounds per minute	0,00%	48,22%	-11,11%	21,11%	66,67%	122,22%	77,78%
AP per shell	0,00%	-28,26%	0,00%	2,17%	-28,26%	-15,22%	-32,61%
HE per shell	0,00%	-18,52%	3,70%	22,22%	-18,52%	-37,04%	-100,00%
Alpha Damage (AP)	0,00%	-19,29%	25,00%	-23,37%	-19,29%	-4,62%	-32,61%
Alpha Damage (HE)	0,00%	-8,33%	29,63%	-8,33%	-8,33%	-29,17%	-100,00%
Damage per minute (AP)	0,00%	19,63%	11,11%	-7,19%	34,51%	111,96%	19,81%
Damage per minute (HE)	0,00%	35,87%	15,23%	11,02%	52,78%	57,41%	-100,00%
Burn chance	0,00%	-7,69%	7,69%	30,77%	-7,69%	-38,46%	-100,00%

 

 

She would be in the same ballpark of the other tier VI CAs (better than Aoba but worse than Pensacola in AP while being worse than both in HE). That is reasonable because you can't expect Trento to outperform a 10 gun cruiser in dpm while the Italian HE is notoriously bad. It is a sizeable buff from historical but not as sizeable as the one you would require to make her work at tier VIIs, where she would have to face better armored cruisers (most of the tier VIs are barely better than her on that regard, with a few exceptions). 

[LastButterfly]

1 hour ago, Deamon93 said:

Duca degli Abruzzi had to go at tier VII and get even more funky due to the fact she would fight with much better CLs. 

 

...

wait, like what ?

Atlanta ? Fiji ? Schors ? Dyou really consider these "much better" than Abruzzy ? If anything I'd at least drop the much...

[Deamon93]

17 minutes ago, LastButterfly said:

 

...

wait, like what ?

Atlanta ? Fiji ? Schors ? Dyou really consider these "much better" than Abruzzy ? If anything I'd at least drop the much...

I was primarily referring to Helena coming in the not too distant future, a ship which is well protected and has 15x152 mm guns. Of the ones you stated Atlanta is weird by design (being armed with 127 mm guns), Fiji is weird because WG made her while Shchors is better armed overall but worse in protection (she is a downgrade relative to Budyonny on that regard). 

[LastButterfly]

16 minutes ago, Deamon93 said:

Of the ones you stated

 

I stated the ones I could think of xD and besides these and the broken belfast, I can't quote much more CLs at TVII.

Sure, the US CLs are basically above the rest, but Brooklyn is equally better than Fiji, Atlanta, Schors and Belfast than she's compared to Abruzzi. Hence my reaction when you claimed an Abruzzi at TVII would have to fight much better CLs - it's more like Brooklyn will have to fight much worse.

[Deamon93]

4 minutes ago, LastButterfly said:

 

I stated the ones I could think of xD and besides these and the broken belfast, I can't quote much more CLs at TVII.

Sure, the US CLs are basically above the rest, but Brooklyn is equally better than Fiji, Atlanta, Schors and Belfast than she's compared to Abruzzi. Hence my reaction when you claimed an Abruzzi at TVII would have to fight much better CLs - it's more like Brooklyn will have to fight much worse.

True enough but the US line is the only one with a reasonable CL line up to tier VIII: the Russian one goes all over the place, the British one is weird (firing AP only and all the funky mechanics of theirs) and the rest don't even have CLs from tier VII upwards (or V upwards in case of Japan). I personally hope WG will overhaul all that mess, at least in part (I doubt they would change the British CLs mechanics)

[LastButterfly]

4 minutes ago, Deamon93 said:

True enough but the US line is the only one with a reasonable CL line up to tier VIII: the Russian one goes all over the place, the British one is weird (firing AP only and all the funky mechanics of theirs) and the rest don't even have CLs from tier VII upwards (or V upwards in case of Japan). I personally hope WG will overhaul all that mess, at least in part (I doubt they would change the British CLs mechanics)

 

Well call me crazy but I think what they did to the british wasn't necessarly a bad call. Or at least it was a call in the right direction.

Hardly any CL line can pretend going above TVII or VIII even with designs. There comes a point where, considering how the game stands right now, a CL has no point existing so high unless it's got some crazy asset that almost none shows. Therefore if you wanna make a decent CL line or high-tier CL you need some kind of alternative, perhaps the fabled "gimmick" - but the right way, not just lolslapping random consumable.

[x_Hasso_von_Manteuffel_x]

So, Deamon, you also note that you can use the real data less and less as a absolute reference ... and then comes again with a 1 to 1 scaling of the real data? What?

And my argument? Lack of alternatives! I simple thing futher than you. A other ship like the Ansaldo design with the 152mm guns is not possible. Why? Simple because Wargaming already said that there will no jumps in the calibre of the main artillery. Means at least if they put a ship with 203mm guns on Tier 7 than there will be a ship with 203mm guns (or bigger) on Tier 8 anyway, because there will be no back jump to 152mm. So we have here not much options, eighter the Zara with some modifications or something complete fictional. A futher alternative would be that they do it like with the Brits and give you a complete light cruiser line, 152mm guns up to tier 10 ... requires also a lot of phantasy ...

P.S. And after Wargaming itself the Duca d#Aosta have a initial AP Shell Velocity of 1000m/s ;)

P.P.S. And hey, i already toled you back then, that the Duca d'Aosta will be Tier 6 and the Abruzzi will be Tier 7 while you insist with hardiness that they will be Tier 5 and 6 ... so, who was right there? ;)

[Deamon93]

4 hours ago, DeadMemories said:

So, Deamon, you also note that you can use the real data less and less as a absolute reference ... and then comes again with a 1 to 1 scaling of the real data? What?

And my argument? Lack of alternatives! I simple thing futher than you. A other ship like the Ansaldo design with the 152mm guns is not possible. Why? Simple because Wargaming already said that there will no jumps in the calibre of the main artillery. Means at least if they put a ship with 203mm guns on Tier 7 than there will be a ship with 203mm guns (or bigger) on Tier 8 anyway, because there will be no back jump to 152mm. So we have here not much options, eighter the Zara with some modifications or something complete fictional. A futher alternative would be that they do it like with the Brits and give you a complete light cruiser line, 152mm guns up to tier 10 ... requires also a lot of phantasy ...

P.S. And after Wargaming itself the Duca d#Aosta have a initial AP Shell Velocity of 1000m/s ;)

P.P.S. And hey, i already toled you back then, that the Duca d'Aosta will be Tier 6 and the Abruzzi will be Tier 7 while you insist with hardiness that they will be Tier 5 and 6 ... so, who was right there? ;)

I use the historical data to evaluate where changes need to be done and their extent. After all firepower alone is but a factor and I would rather look at the whole picture before tweaking the numbers.

 

Lack of alternatives? What about the original design of Zara or the 4x2 203/53 Spanish CA? Those could compete at tier VIII without going back to the 152/55. There's nothing fictional required, other than the usual AA modifications for the former (after all Zara was originally designed in late '20s, when aircraft were considerably less sophisticated than what we have in the high tier CVs). They are at least more real than Roon and Hindenburg who came out from nowhere (only the primary armament turrets were designed, the rest around them is 100% made in WG)

 

So? That was done to keep her at tier VI. It wasn't originally enough so they put more gizmos on in terms of abilities (same goes for Duca degli Abruzzi). The moment you have to put some serious gimmicks to keep a ship in a tier it proves said ship wasn't supposed to belong there in the first place. The only reason for that is cash because tier VI and VII premiums are more profitable

[Exocet6951]

5 hours ago, DeadMemories said:

P.P.S. And hey, i already toled you back then, that the Duca d'Aosta will be Tier 6 and the Abruzzi will be Tier 7 while you insist with hardiness that they will be Tier 5 and 6 ... so, who was right there? ;)

 

And I told WG that a Lyon on T7 was stupid for everyone involved, and that radar had no place on a BB (Missouri), yet here we are.

 

We can revel in stupid WG decisions, or we can just look at WG had to do with putting said ship on T6 and T7.

The Duca is quirky and has ridiculous shell velocity with quirky torpedoes and concealment. A quirky, but gimmicky ship. Fun one, don't get me wrong, but it could have gotten it's historical shell velocity, perhaps a rudder shift nerf and dropped to T5 easily.
The Abruzzi is a damn mess that had consumables thrown at it until it was deemed playable enough to throw in the store, where it'll probably be one of the worst selling premiums because of how underwhelming it is.

So yeah, I wouldn't use a "I told you so, so Trento T7 and Zara T8!", because believe me when I say that the only thing you're winning is the prediction, certainly not in having a competitive ship.

 

The fact is that 2 years ago, the Zara would have fit right in as a T8.
As of today, it has to face competition that have more guns that are almost as potent (or more, depending on the situation, USN 203mm heavy waifu shells)  that fire faster, with comparable armor, vastly better AA and simply put a better turret layout. The Hipper is surviving thanks to cheese mechanics like 1/4th HE pen and autobounce at closer range turtleback.

[SparvieroVV]

@phoenix_jz posted this all over the NA forums.  A new book with some hints of an Impero carrier conversion and other things. 

 

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/167195-italian-carriers/?do=findComment&comment=3956009

 

http://www.betasom.it/forum/index.php?showtopic=46929

[cicciolorenz]

Submarine wise how good the italians ones were?

[Deamon93]

On 20/9/2018 at 10:05 AM, cicciolorenz said:

Submarine wise how good the italians ones were?

Depends on the size. It goes from relatively small ships to the 14 torpedo tube Cagni-class (8 fore 6 aft). To achieve that the caliber was reduced from 533 mm to 450 mm, which won't be a big problem ingame (it would speed reload time while the alpha damage of the salvo would still be high). 

For reference on Cagni: http://www.navypedia.org/ships/italy/it_ss_cagni.htm

[Historynerd]

On 20/9/2018 at 10:05 AM, cicciolorenz said:

Submarine wise how good the italians ones were?

Well, they had quite a bit going against them, mainly the doctrine (influenced by the peculiar use of submarines in WWI, in the shallow Adriatic Sea) and the fact that their design ultimately meant that they were somewhat slow on the surface and had big conning towers, making them unsuitable to do what the U-Boote did (i.e. wolfpack and the like), in the Atlantic Ocean, where they saw instead better use as "cruisers", attacking unescorted single ships in areas such as the Caribbean. In the Mediterranean, they didn't have much to shoot at to begin with, and at first they did it wrong and faced stronger reaction than expected (ASDIC was a nasty surprise), but they made progress... during Operation Pedestal, unfortunately the last chance they had before Allied superiority became overwhelming, they did really well. They also had to do other things like getting supplies to North Africa (to a degree unavoidable, but still a waste) and carrying human torpedoes (and that was something else).

 

There are great stories, and bad stories.

Some great stories could be those of the Leonardo da Vinci, a Marconi-class submarine that was the deadliest non-German submarine of the whole war, sinking more in tons than any other British, American or Japanese sub; or perhaps, the Perla, a smaller coastal submarine assigned to East Africa that, before it fell, embarked on an adventurous trip that saw it safely reach Bordeaux. Or even the story of Salvatore Todaro, a submarine skipper that twice ensured that the crew and passengers of the ships he sank were safe, disregarding the danger for his boat.

Some bad stories... well, there was another submarine commander, Enzo Grossi, who twice claimed to have sunk an American battleship (and, while he did attack something, it was a light cruiser the first time, and a corvette the second time, both of which weren't hit anyway). He was promoted and decorated, and his "success" was milked for all its worth... only to become an embarassment at the end of the war, when a court of enquiry had to be established twice because the former had been way too lenient towards him.

[SparvieroVV]

Axum had to have had one of the most effective salvos ever.  I think another submarine managed multiple hits earlier. 

 

In the name of tier IX freexp cruisers being something else how about this Impero? 

 

It has twelve 152/55 rifles, obviously a cruiser. 

[Historynerd]

17 hours ago, SparvieroVV said:

Axum had to have had one of the most effective salvos ever.  I think another submarine managed multiple hits earlier. 

That was a very nice hit, and something to remember, absolutely. However, let's not forget that it went down to simple luck (I imagine how close the Axum managed to get to the convoy without getting spotted, the formation of the same, etc.), because the old-fashioned way the Italian boats used to fire torpedoes was pretty much reliant on luck. Hope that you get the target's bearing and speed right and cross your fingers.

[SparvieroVV]

51 minutes ago, Historynerd said:

That was a very nice hit, and something to remember, absolutely. However, let's not forget that it went down to simple luck (I imagine how close the Axum managed to get to the convoy without getting spotted, the formation of the same, etc.), because the old-fashioned way the Italian boats used to fire torpedoes was pretty much reliant on luck. Hope that you get the target's bearing and speed right and cross your fingers.

 

Skill for Germans and British but luck for Italians?  The 600 series where generally good minus the cheap Freon replacement that tried to kill crews. At least they where able to get their torpedoes on target unlike the surface ships. 

 

Of course if tier IV is a condottiere I want it to be a certain one. So my opinion is very suspect.  

 

 

[Historynerd]

1 hour ago, SparvieroVV said:

 

Skill for Germans and British but luck for Italians?  The 600 series where generally good minus the cheap Freon replacement that tried to kill crews. At least they where able to get their torpedoes on target unlike the surface ships. 

The Germans had a torpedo fire control system (called TRW, if I'm not mistaken), so even when they weren't that close or the shot wasn't that easy-peasy, they could take it with good chances of hitting.

The British didn't have one, if I recall correctly (I mean until 1943), but their boats usually had all the torpedo tubes on the bow, so they could fire a bigger salvo (six torpedoes, instead of the maximum four that an Italian boat could muster) to improve their chances.

 

Nothing to say about the 600, they were adequate for the role (some more knots when surfaced wouldn't have been exactly a bad thing, though), and they would've done a bit better had they been used as they should have. Italian submarine doctrine at the beginning was awful and thoroughly inadequate.

The freon thing (which involved all submarines, not just the 600) was important in East Africa, so while it was a bad thing (not to mention MARICOSOM perfectly knew the issue and did nothing, presumably for budget reasons) it wasn't a crippling flaw.

[SparvieroVV]

Ironically I have my big submarine book back in the states however I’m fairly certain there was at least some ability for pattern setting.  The French went entirely the other direction and I’m sure the player base will love their solution as it will probably be very game mechanics friendly. 

[Historynerd]

 

...Do we even have to comment this?

Maybe it's for the better that the regular tree doesn't come at all; I'd rather have no tree than a tree full of overtiered, mediocrely performing ships.

Which drunk and ignorant Russian author did they follow this time around?

 

[Deamon93]

15 hours ago, Historynerd said:

 

...Do we even have to comment this?

Maybe it's for the better that the regular tree doesn't come at all; I'd rather have no tree than a tree full of overtiered, mediocrely performing ships.

Which drunk and ignorant Russian author did they follow this time around?

 

I see it as grossly overtiered, then again it might not have an impact on the line at large.

 

By the way I modified the stats doc so that everyone could modify the file, since I can't put a lot of time into it

[SparvieroVV]

20 hours ago, Historynerd said:

 

...Do we even have to comment this?

Maybe it's for the better that the regular tree doesn't come at all; I'd rather have no tree than a tree full of overtiered, mediocrely performing ships.

Which drunk and ignorant Russian author did they follow this time around?

 

The silenzio stampa surrounding the next tech tree and the release of gaggles of premiums pretty much points to Russian battleships at this point.

 

The real question is if WG thinks 8 rifles justifies uptiering or if they are actually going to try to uptier every destroyer by a couple of tiers?

[SparvieroVV]

So who besides me is guilty of taking a peak at Leone in the tech tree preview in game?