Fan made Italian tech tree

[Deamon93]

4 hours ago, DeadMemories said:

I would not say that we can here refer to much to real responses, we have to look who it will fit the best on there technical data ... also a problem is, today we even cant use the real data not anymore as a absolute context, becasue Wargaming goes more and more away from this ... also a good example is the Roma, in reality there guns had a incredible range and the disadvantage of a comperable long reload time ... and ingame she has a relative short firing range and a random reload time ...

So with some minor adjustments on there armor and the gun characteristics the Trento is without any problem a usable Tier 7 ship

And hey, you also dont belived that the Duca d'Aosta will be Tier 6 and the Abruzzi will be Tier 7 what i already predicted one and a half year ago ^^ ;)

Reload time of the 381/50 was affected by the fact the RM tended to fire them from downtown (sometimes from over 30.000 yards). In such engagements firing quickly is rather pointless.

 

Minor adjustments to armor and guns were done: it's called Zara. 

 

And those worked out, right? After all WG had to put a lot of crap to make them vaguely comparable and both took forever to get released as a consequence. 

[x_Hasso_von_Manteuffel_x]

12 hours ago, Deamon93 said:

Minor adjustments to armor and guns were done: it's called Zara. 

The Zara is anyway Tier 8 stuff ;)

..........

Edit:

I have compared the Cannone da 203/50 Modello 1924 with the French 203mm/55 Modèle 1931 gun of the Algérie ... and not see so much problems. There disadvantages is the rate of fire and the bursting charge (if you can call 8,2kg against 8,3kg at the HE shells a disadvantage). There advantage are the higher shell weight, the higher muzzle velocity and the higher firing range

So i still see there absolute no problem. The lower rate of fire can be balanced without problems. Here we have just to look at the Roma, whoes Cannone da 381/50 Modello 1934 had in reality a rate of fire from 1,3 shoots per minute ( 46,2 seconds reload) nd got ingame a reload time of 30 seconds (2 shoots per minute) ... and to improve the armor a little bit also is no real problem. I can call you some ships where Wargaming balanced it the other way around and toke away some mm of the armor. For example the Nassau, who has ingame just 270mm of belt and who had in reality a belt of 300mm ...

[Deamon93]

11 hours ago, DeadMemories said:

The Zara is anyway Tier 8 stuff ;)

..........

Edit:

I have compared the Cannone da 203/50 Modello 1924 with the French 203mm/55 Modèle 1931 gun of the Algérie ... and not see so much problems. There disadvantages is the rate of fire and the bursting charge (if you can call 8,2kg against 8,3kg at the HE shells a disadvantage). There advantage are the higher shell weight, the higher muzzle velocity and the higher firing range

So i still see there absolute no problem. The lower rate of fire can be balanced without problems. Here we have just to look at the Roma, whoes Cannone da 381/50 Modello 1934 had in reality a rate of fire from 1,3 shoots per minute ( 46,2 seconds reload) nd got ingame a reload time of 30 seconds (2 shoots per minute) ... and to improve the armor a little bit also is no real problem. I can call you some ships where Wargaming balanced it the other way around and toke away some mm of the armor. For example the Nassau, who has ingame just 270mm of belt and who had in reality a belt of 300mm ...

How could she be tier 8 material with the French and US cruiser lines layed out the way they are? She isn't even vaguely comparable to Saint Louis and Baltimore in any category except protection, which is just marginally better than the two aforementioned

 

The 381/50 could have fired 2 rpm, it did it rarely due to the fact the firing range was absurdly long and the crew took their sweet time (after all they had to wait for a shell to land, why bother rushing). Besides, again, if you start buffing Trento in firepower and protection you inevitably end up creating a larger and faster Zara, why bother? You could just plop her there and put either the original Zara at tier VIII or split the Spanish CA (I would rather go for the former, although could be complicated). 

[x_Hasso_von_Manteuffel_x]

The Trento may is a bit longer then the Zara, right, but the Zara has more displacement (fit perfectly into tier 8) much better armor (realy good for Tier 8) and the 203/53 Modello 1927  also are better ;)

[Deamon93]

7 hours ago, DeadMemories said:

The Trento may is a bit longer then the Zara, right, but the Zara has more displacement (fit perfectly into tier 8) much better armor (realy good for Tier 8) and the 203/53 Modello 1927  also are better ;)

Baltimore and Saint Louis have a higher displacement than Zara, granting both of them an edge on that regard. The only category in which Zara excels is size more than protection: she is considerably smaller than the average high tier cruiser (most of them are about 200 m long while Zara is 182.6 m long), which makes her harder to hit and gives her less surface area to cover. While this is nice I suspect it won't be enough to compensate the disadvantages in firepower, lack of versatility (she doesn't have torpedoes and her secondary is meh) and slight lack of speed where she is average (a bit on the slow side but marginally so). 

[x_Hasso_von_Manteuffel_x]

I have no idea why you now compare Tier 9 with Tier 8 ships O,o

And there are just two Tier 8 cruisers who are over 200 metres, that's the Baltimore and the Admiral Hipper, the Mogami is 197 metres, the Edinburgh is 187 metres, the Chapayev had would been 199 metres, the Project C5A3 cruiser (aka Charles Martel) was planed with 185 metres  ... futhermore is the length complete unimportant. Ok, at least not at all, because the Zara was relative smal they will have excellent visibility stats ... more important is at least the displacement, who is the basic for the HP-pool ... and sorry, there the Zara is absolute ok for Tier 8 ... Zara = 14300 tons / Mogami = 13700 tons / Edinburgh = 13200 tons / Chapayev = 14100 tons / Charles Martel = 15000 tons / Baltimore = 17300 tons / Hipper = 18500 tons ... so nothing Wargaming can not handle with a little bit balancing ;)

About the main artillery, if i compare the guns again, they fit into tier 8, without any problem. And sorry, the Hipper also has to get clear with just 8x 203mm ;)

About the secondary and the torpedos, well you know, Wargaming and there love for fictional upgrades, a B-hull with a improved secondary and some non real torpedo launchers are also absolute no problem ^^ ... not to mention the armor of the Zara, who is realy good for a tier 8 cruiser ...
 

[Historynerd]

Hi, guys! I've been absent quite a bit myself, but I'm baaack!

 

To be honest, I'm rather pessimistic on the whole deal, and I'm almost resigned that we'll see the Zara at Tier 7, if nothing else because I agree with Deamon93, she cannot hold up to the Algerie and the Pensacola.

What irks me the most about it (I confess it's a bit petty, but I'm only human), is that we'll keep having the Hipper happily seated at Tier 8 like nothing ever happened. 

 

1 hour ago, DeadMemories said:

About the main artillery, if i compare the guns again, they fit into tier 8, without any problem. And sorry, the Hipper also has to get clear with just 8x 203mm ;)

About the secondary and the torpedos, well you know, Wargaming and there love for fictional upgrades, a B-hull with a improved secondary and some non real torpedo launchers are also absolute no problem ^^ ... not to mention the armor of the Zara, who is realy good for a tier 8 cruiser ...
 

The Hipper also has somewhat decent HE shells that have 1/4 pen; if the premium cruisers are anything to go by, the Zara's HE will be outright horrible.

 

The only "what-if" change I'd personally approve would be some strengthening of the AA, which would've likely been done between 1943 and 1945 (replacing 20 mm Breda with Oerlikons, swapping some 20 mm mountings for 37 mm singles). Adding torpedoes would've been nonsenical on the Regia Marina, a navy that never focused that much on torpedo attacks and largely left it to light craft, and I don't even know where they would've put the launchers on the deck; replacing secondaries would've been damn difficult, not to mention that there wouldn't been much candidates for adequate guns (even for the lone anti-ship role) in exposed mountings haphazardly put together..

[x_Hasso_von_Manteuffel_x]

Tier 7? There the Zara anyways has to good guns, a too high displacement and is much, much, much to well armored ...

[Historynerd]

3 minutes ago, DeadMemories said:

Tier 7? There the Zara anyways has to good guns, a too high displacement and is much, much, much to well armored ...

The good guns are such only as far as the AP goes; I guess the only way to have them perform adequately would be by giving their HE 1/4 pen as well. Now that I think about it, I believe this might be a good idea.

 

In terms of displacement, the same could be said about the Myoko, and yet there it is down at Tier 7...

 

The armor would definitely be a troll for Tier 7, and that's where WG should be scratching its head, I admit.

 

Bottom line is, as I stated, I'm a pessimist, so I brace for the worst possible outcome. 

[Deamon93]

2 hours ago, DeadMemories said:

Tier 7? There the Zara anyways has to good guns, a too high displacement and is much, much, much to well armored ...

To comment on guns here's a proper comparison between the 203/53 and the French 203/50. Here are the stats (for the Italian gun are of course guestimated)

203/53: 4900 AP/2700 HE/4 rpm

203/50: 4800 AP/2800 HE/5 rpm

 

Here are the difference percentage wise, with Algerie as baseline

AP (alpha damage): (4900-4800)/4800=2.08%

HE (alpha damage): (2700-2800)/2800=-3.57%

AP (dpm): (156800-192000)/192000=-18.33%

HE (dpm): (86400-112000)/112000=-22.86%

 

Now with Zara as baseline

AP (alpha damage): (4800-4900)/4900=-2.04%

HE (alpha damage): (2800-2700)/2700=3.70%

AP (dpm): (192000-156800)/156800=22.45%

HE (dpm): (112000-86400)/86400=29.63%

 

 

On displacement I'll make the comparison between HP pools, being more relevant ingame. For the comparison I'll consider Algerie (B) since the guestimated stats on Zara should reflect her B hull as well

Zara: 36600

Algerie: 35600

 

Differences percentage wise:

Algerie as baseline: (36600-35600)/35600=2.81%

Zara as baseline: (35600-36600)/36600=-2.73%

 

On protection I need to find a good proxy so I won't be able to compare them right now. Even without a good statistical proxy it's safe to say that Zara is better protected than Algerie, I doubt she is protected enough to compensate the massive gap in dpm though. 

 

By the way if you wish I could do this statistical witchcraft for every ship at every tier. It would take some time to set up the spreadsheet but I have plenty of time. 

 

 

 

 

 

[piritskenyer]

AP damage is indeed 4900 based on shell weight and muzzle velocity for the M27 and M29 guns, the M24 8"/50 comes up with AP shell damage of 4600 using the later shells, using earlier shells and late shell velocity it comes up to 4700. I don't have the HE calculation formulas at hand right now.

[Deamon93]

28 minutes ago, piritskenyer said:

AP damage is indeed 4900 based on shell weight and muzzle velocity for the M27 and M29 guns, the M24 8"/50 comes up with AP shell damage of 4600 using the later shells, using earlier shells and late shell velocity it comes up to 4700. I don't have the HE calculation formulas at hand right now.

I have the spreadsheet with all the guestimated stats and relevant formulas in the first post. It should still be relevant, unlike the comparison one (since I haven't updated it in years)

[x_Hasso_von_Manteuffel_x]

Based on compare between real and ingame stats i come to this caclulation (based on the idea to balance the ships for Tier 7):

Algérie AP max damage: 4800
Trento AP max damage: 4900
Zara AP max damage: 5000

Algérie HE max damage: 2800
Trento HE max damage: 2800
Zara HE max damage: 2900

Algérie HE fire chance: 15%
Trento HE fire chance: 15%
Zara HE fire chance: 15%

Algérie firing range: 17,9km
Trento firing range: 18,2km
Zara firing range: 18,8km

Things like the RoF are the smalest problem and can be balanced without any problem, like Wargaming shows already a lot times ;)

Algérie HP-pool: 35600
Trento HP-pool: 34800
Zara HP-pool: 37400

... If i go on with the technical data i comes to a simple reason for your opinion, you want to have the superior ship to the Frenchs and dont try to place the ships on a neutral point of view Deamon (to much patriot, to much fanboy in this case, i belive) ;)

[piritskenyer]

4 hours ago, DeadMemories said:

Based on compare between real and ingame stats i come to this caclulation (based on the idea to balance the ships for Tier 7):

Algérie AP max damage: 4800
Trento AP max damage: 4900
Zara AP max damage: 5000

Algérie HE max damage: 2800
Trento HE max damage: 2800
Zara HE max damage: 2900

Algérie HE fire chance: 15%
Trento HE fire chance: 15%
Zara HE fire chance: 15%

Algérie firing range: 17,9km
Trento firing range: 18,2km
Zara firing range: 18,8km

Things like the RoF are the smalest problem and can be balanced without any problem, like Wargaming shows already a lot times ;)

Algérie HP-pool: 35600
Trento HP-pool: 34800
Zara HP-pool: 37400

... If i go on with the technical data i comes to a simple reason for your opinion, you want to have the superior ship to the Frenchs and dont try to place the ships on a neutral point of view Deamon (to much patriot, to much fanboy in this case, i belive) ;)

 

10 hours ago, Deamon93 said:

I have the spreadsheet with all the guestimated stats and relevant formulas in the first post. It should still be relevant, unlike the comparison one (since I haven't updated it in years)

 

There's a formula for calculating AP damage that has so far been pretty accurate: ((V₀*m)^0,4787)*18,588 

There's also a formula for HE damage based on HE filler, but I can't be bothered to find it right now.

[Deamon93]

5 hours ago, DeadMemories said:

Based on compare between real and ingame stats i come to this caclulation (based on the idea to balance the ships for Tier 7):

Algérie AP max damage: 4800
Trento AP max damage: 4900
Zara AP max damage: 5000

Algérie HE max damage: 2800
Trento HE max damage: 2800
Zara HE max damage: 2900

Algérie HE fire chance: 15%
Trento HE fire chance: 15%
Zara HE fire chance: 15%

Algérie firing range: 17,9km
Trento firing range: 18,2km
Zara firing range: 18,8km

Things like the RoF are the smalest problem and can be balanced without any problem, like Wargaming shows already a lot times ;)

Algérie HP-pool: 35600
Trento HP-pool: 34800
Zara HP-pool: 37400

... If i go on with the technical data i comes to a simple reason for your opinion, you want to have the superior ship to the Frenchs and dont try to place the ships on a neutral point of view Deamon (to much patriot, to much fanboy in this case, i belive) ;)

Because not wanting to put Zara under the same roof with Charles Martel and Baltimore is patriotism, right. Have you bothered checking their stats as well? Zara only edge is protection, which gets eroded at that tier (Charles Martel has a maximum thickness of 140 mm while Baltimore has 152 mm). In dpm on the other hand she gets already dwarfed by Algerie, which is a tier VII, so comparing her to the new tier VIIIs is utterly pointless (Charles Martel upgraded fires 6 rpm). You need to buff Zara to ludicrous levels to have her stick because her protection scheme won't compensate this massive disadvantage.

 

On Algerie: it is impossible to say whether she is more powerful than Zara or the other way around, depends on how much dpm is valued over protection. I personally think the two are overall comparable enough, which isn't suprising since Algerie was designed and built in response to Zara.

 

By the way which formulas have you used? Because with @piritskenyer corroborating the 4900 AP damage I can't exactly accept your numbers at face value. 

 

 

[Deamon93]

48 minutes ago, piritskenyer said:

 

 

There's a formula for calculating AP damage that has so far been pretty accurate: ((V₀*m)^0,4787)*18,588 

There's also a formula for HE damage based on HE filler, but I can't be bothered to find it right now.

That's the formula I've used, this is the HE one

870.03 X (MASS (kg) X BURSTING CHARGE (kg)) ^ 0.1678

[piritskenyer]

26 minutes ago, Deamon93 said:

That's the formula I've used, this is the HE one

870.03 X (MASS (kg) X BURSTING CHARGE (kg)) ^ 0.1678

 

Based on that formula, the HE shell damage for all Italian 8" guns is 2800 indeed.

[Deamon93]

8 minutes ago, piritskenyer said:

 

Based on that formula, the HE shell damage for all Italian 8" guns is 2800 indeed.

Making the calculation I guet 2727.68, rounding it up to 2700. Not that it matters all that much, after all the difference is below the significance level of 5%. 

[piritskenyer]

4 minutes ago, Deamon93 said:

Making the calculation I guet 2727.68, rounding it up to 2700. Not that it matters all that much, after all the difference is below the significance level of 5%. 

No, you're right, it's 2700. I have a cold and I cannot into numbers apparently. 

[Deamon93]

Just now, piritskenyer said:

No, you're right, it's 2700. I have a cold and I cannot into numbers apparently. 

Don't worry, cold and maths don't go hand in hand :D

[x_Hasso_von_Manteuffel_x]

Yes, Deamon, i checked all data of all ships and compared then, think about it ... and exactly this is the reason why i come to the result that the Trento is Tier 7 material and the Zara Tier 8 material :)

And i belive be the high quote of correct predicts i made the last 2 years (i just was one time wrong) i belive i'm right with my assumptions ...
 

Futhermore, the only thing who need to be buffed on the Italian ships is the rate of fire, and there Wargaming has absolute no problems with it (keyword is again Roma)

P.S. The formulas are meanwhile also just nothing more than a basic you can work with. I can call here so many ships who dont fit into the formulas ;)

[Deamon93]

21 minutes ago, DeadMemories said:

Yes, Deamon, i checked all data of all ships and compared then, think about it ... and exactly this is the reason why i come to the result that the Trento is Tier 7 material and the Zara Tier 8 material :)

And i belive be the high quote of correct predicts i made the last 2 years (i just was one time wrong) i belive i'm right with my assumptions ...
 

Futhermore, the only thing who need to be buffed on the Italian ships is the rate of fire, and there Wargaming has absolute no problems with it (keyword is again Roma)

P.S. The formulas are meanwhile also just nothing more than a basic you can work with. I can call here so many ships who dont fit into the formulas ;)

Roma hasn't been buffed at all

 

http://photobucket.com/gallery/http://s1249.photobucket.com/user/Navweaps/media/Dispersione381.png.html

 

The C column is reload time, as you can see they were perfectly capable of reloading in 30 seconds or so.

 

I too originally placed the Condottieri at tier V-VI-VII but things have changed drastically since that time, hence why I adapted.

 

To make you evident how much Zara has to be buffed to stay at tier VIII here's a direct comparison with every tier VIII ingame

 

	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10
Ship	Zara	Charles Martel	Baltimore	Cleveland	Mogami	Mogami	Chapayev	Hipper(A)	Hipper(B/C)	Edimburgh
Tier	VII	VIII	VIII	VIII	VIII	VIII	VIII	VIII	VIII	VIII
Gun used	203/53	203/55	203/55	152/47	155/60	203/50	155/60	203/60	203/60	152/50
Number of guns on broadside	8	9	9	12	15	10	9	8	8	12
Rounds per minute	3,8	6	6	9,23	6	4	7,5	5,22	5,22	8
AP per shell	4900	4900	5000	3200	3300	4700	3300	5900	5900	3100
HE per shell	2700	2800	2800	2200	2600	3300	2200	2300	2500	0
Alpha Damage (AP)	39200	44100	45000	38400	49500	47000	29700	47200	47200	37200
Alpha Damage (HE)	21600	25200	25200	26400	39000	33000	19800	18400	20000	0
Damage per minute (AP)	148960	264600	270000	354432	297000	188000	222750	246384	246384	297600
Damage per minute (HE)	82080	151200	151200	243672	234000	132000	148500	96048	104400	0
Burn chance	13,00%	15,00%	14,00%	12,00%	12,00%	19,00%	12,00%	11,00%	13,00%	0,00%
Difference(%, relative to ship 1)
Number of guns on broadside	0,00%	12,50%	12,50%	50,00%	87,50%	25,00%	12,50%	0,00%	0,00%	50,00%
Rounds per minute	0,00%	57,89%	57,89%	142,89%	57,89%	5,26%	97,37%	37,37%	37,37%	110,53%
AP per shell	0,00%	0,00%	2,04%	-34,69%	-32,65%	-4,08%	-32,65%	20,41%	20,41%	-36,73%
HE per shell	0,00%	3,70%	3,70%	-18,52%	-3,70%	22,22%	-18,52%	-14,81%	-7,41%	-100,00%
Alpha Damage (AP)	0,00%	12,50%	14,80%	-2,04%	26,28%	19,90%	-24,23%	20,41%	20,41%	-5,10%
Alpha Damage (HE)	0,00%	16,67%	16,67%	22,22%	80,56%	52,78%	-8,33%	-14,81%	-7,41%	-100,00%
Damage per minute (AP)	0,00%	77,63%	81,26%	137,94%	99,38%	26,21%	49,54%	65,40%	65,40%	99,79%
Damage per minute (HE)	0,00%	84,21%	84,21%	196,87%	185,09%	60,82%	80,92%	17,02%	27,19%	-100,00%
Burn chance	0,00%	15,38%	7,69%	-7,69%	-7,69%	46,15%	-7,69%	-15,38%	0,00%	-100,00%

 

As you can see every ship has a sizeable advantage in dpm, especially the most relevant for the tree construction (Charles Martel and Baltimore). Those two are way ahead as far as dpm is concerned while Zara isn't as ludicrously better protected. Just for lolz this is how fast Zara should fire to deal a comparable amount of damage to Charles Martel (being the lowest of the two): 264600*3.8/148960=6.75 rpm. That is a massive buff (77.63%), so massive that shows how utterly pointless it is to shove her in there. Granted you could go half way but it's still at least a 50% buff in RoF.

 

For sake of completion here's Trento with the tier VIIs

 

	1	2	3	4	5	6	7
Ship	Trento	Algerie	New Orleans	Myoko	Shchors	Yorck	Fiji
Tier	VI	VII	VII	VII	VII	VII	VII
Gun used	203/50	203/50	203/55	203/50	152/57	210/45	152/50
Number of guns on broadside	8	8	9	10	12	8	12
Rounds per minute	3,4	5	4,61	4,29	7,5	5	8
AP per shell	4600	4800	4600	4700	3300	5500	3100
HE per shell	2700	2800	2800	3300	2200	2900	0
Alpha Damage (AP)	36800	38400	41400	47000	39600	44000	37200
Alpha Damage (HE)	21600	22400	25200	33000	26400	23200	0
Damage per minute (AP)	125120	192000	190854	201630	297000	220000	297600
Damage per minute (HE)	73440	112000	116172	141570	198000	116000	0
Burn chance	13,00%	15,00%	14,00%	17,00%	12,00%	12,00%	0,00%
Difference(%, relative to ship 1)
Number of guns on broadside	0,00%	0,00%	12,50%	25,00%	50,00%	0,00%	50,00%
Rounds per minute	0,00%	47,06%	35,59%	26,18%	120,59%	47,06%	135,29%
AP per shell	0,00%	4,35%	0,00%	2,17%	-28,26%	19,57%	-32,61%
HE per shell	0,00%	3,70%	3,70%	22,22%	-18,52%	7,41%	-100,00%
Alpha Damage (AP)	0,00%	4,35%	12,50%	27,72%	7,61%	19,57%	1,09%
Alpha Damage (HE)	0,00%	3,70%	16,67%	52,78%	22,22%	7,41%	-100,00%
Damage per minute (AP)	0,00%	53,45%	52,54%	61,15%	137,37%	75,83%	137,85%
Damage per minute (HE)	0,00%	52,51%	58,19%	92,77%	169,61%	57,95%	-100,00%
Burn chance	0,00%	15,38%	7,69%	30,77%	-7,69%	-7,69%	-100,00%

 

As you can see even Trento would require a lot of buffs to stick at tier VII, especially counting the fact she would be one of the largest and the worst protected. As such either the buff more than compensates the lack of survivability or she gets turned into Zara (ie buffs in both firepower and survivability).

 

To complete this long statistical post here's the comparison between Zara and the the tier VIIs

 

	1	2	3	4	5	6	7
Ship	Zara	Algerie	New Orleans	Myoko	Shchors	Yorck	Fiji
Tier	VII	VII	VII	VII	VII	VII	VII
Gun used	203/53	203/50	203/55	203/50	152/57	210/45	152/50
Number of guns on broadside	8	8	9	10	12	8	12
Rounds per minute	3,8	5	4,61	4,29	7,5	5	8
AP per shell	4900	4800	4600	4700	3300	5500	3100
HE per shell	2700	2800	2800	3300	2200	2900	0
Alpha Damage (AP)	39200	38400	41400	47000	39600	44000	37200
Alpha Damage (HE)	21600	22400	25200	33000	26400	23200	0
Damage per minute (AP)	148960	192000	190854	201630	297000	220000	297600
Damage per minute (HE)	82080	112000	116172	141570	198000	116000	0
Burn chance	13,00%	15,00%	14,00%	17,00%	12,00%	12,00%	0,00%
Difference(%, relative to ship 1)
Number of guns on broadside	0,00%	0,00%	12,50%	25,00%	50,00%	0,00%	50,00%
Rounds per minute	0,00%	31,58%	21,32%	12,89%	97,37%	31,58%	110,53%
AP per shell	0,00%	-2,04%	-6,12%	-4,08%	-32,65%	12,24%	-36,73%
HE per shell	0,00%	3,70%	3,70%	22,22%	-18,52%	7,41%	-100,00%
Alpha Damage (AP)	0,00%	-2,04%	5,61%	19,90%	1,02%	12,24%	-5,10%
Alpha Damage (HE)	0,00%	3,70%	16,67%	52,78%	22,22%	7,41%	-100,00%
Damage per minute (AP)	0,00%	28,89%	28,12%	35,36%	99,38%	47,69%	99,79%
Damage per minute (HE)	0,00%	36,45%	41,54%	72,48%	141,23%	41,33%	-100,00%
Burn chance	0,00%	15,38%	7,69%	30,77%	-7,69%	-7,69%	-100,00%

 

As you can see the differences are there but not as massive as with the tier VIIIs. A buff in RoF is still warranted but not as big as before, especially because she would have a substantial edge in terms of survivability. 

 

I'll provide the spreadsheet I've worked on as soon as possible, I just need to make it more presentable. 

 

 

 

[Historynerd]

I wonder, as it is now, would the original Zara design make it as a Tier 8? 

[Deamon93]

59 minutes ago, Historynerd said:

I wonder, as it is now, would the original Zara design make it as a Tier 8? 

She would have 200 mm instead of 150 mm on the belt, torpedoes (I doubt they would make or break her but still good to have) and more HP (being considerably heavier). I think it might be enough to warrant her a spot with a less than ludicrous buff in firepower (most likely in the same ballpark of the one for Zara at tier VII). Sadly I don't know much about the original design so it's hard to comment on the specifics. We could also have the 4x2 Spanish CA over there, after all the two aren't mutually exclusive (the original Zara favours protection while the Spanish CA favours speed, with both having the same armament). Granted it would have been glorious a 37 knot cruiser with 200 mm belt but let's not be too greedy, otherwise we end up having an OP Italian cruiser and we can't have that

[piritskenyer]

@Deamon93 There is no way the baseline reload on 8x 8" is under 4 r/m. Just no way. I'm talking gameplay wise ofc.