Fan made Italian tech tree

[SparvieroVV]

 

[Deamon93]

Well, Romics came and went, and nothing was said about anything about the Italian ships.

 

 

 

 

Apparently so, oh well. I guess we have to wait even longer to get some more pieces of information, hoping not to be too long

[FireflyActual]

Just discovered this gem of a thread. Phenomenal work Deamon93, thank you! 

 

Also, quick comment on how I think the Italian BBs may be "flavoured" as WG likes to do in its games - I'd expect them to have high penetration, flat firing arks and long range at the cost of average accuracy, below-average AP damage and relatively slow turret traverse and elevation, good speed and manoeuvrability, bad torpedo protection (scusa generale Pugliese ), decent secondaries (an Italian friend of mine told me the 152s were stabilised) and solid AA defence. With these qualities I think they'd be different enough from all the other nations' BBs and yet maintain their inherent qualities, not to mention the stunning Italian looks. :3

 

By the way, do you think that the Littorio class is likely to be split between the early ships in the main tree and the Roma as a premium? I'd be willing to bet that WG would be more than happy to do the same thing that they've done with the Bismarck and Tirpitz. 

[Deamon93]

Just discovered this gem of a thread. Phenomenal work Deamon93, thank you! 

 

Also, quick comment on how I think the Italian BBs may be "flavoured" as WG likes to do in its games - I'd expect them to have high penetration, flat firing arks and long range at the cost of average accuracy, below-average AP damage and relatively slow turret traverse and elevation, good speed and manoeuvrability, bad torpedo protection (scusa generale Pugliese ), decent secondaries (an Italian friend of mine told me the 152s were stabilised) and solid AA defence. With these qualities I think they'd be different enough from all the other nations' BBs and yet maintain their inherent qualities, not to mention the stunning Italian looks. :3

 

By the way, do you think that the Littorio class is likely to be split between the early ships in the main tree and the Roma as a premium? I'd be willing to bet that WG would be more than happy to do the same thing that they've done with the Bismarck and Tirpitz. 

 

Thank you!

 

Regarding the BBs is complicated since there isn't a common theme due to the differences between the various ships/guns. Take as example Caracciolo and Littorio: both have 381 mm guns, both fire heavy shells(for their respective times) but muzzle velocity wise they are different(700 m/s the former, 850 m/s the latter). Turret rotation wise they are also different(I'm sure Littorio had 6°/s, don't recall Caracciolo). The torpedo protection is complicated, there is a thread on that somewhere in this forum which explains a bit better why it is complicated. The secondary is usually decent, nothing too fancy but not too bad either. AA wise historically wasn't improved a whole lot but there were mounts planned which could be used(especially for the higher tiers).

 

I'm not sure how much different RN Roma would be but, considering how many clones there are, it's plausible to see her as premium. Personally I would rather have RN Vittorio Veneto(because of her record) but I know that the former is more known

[Historynerd]

Just discovered this gem of a thread. Phenomenal work Deamon93, thank you! 

 

Also, quick comment on how I think the Italian BBs may be "flavoured" as WG likes to do in its games - I'd expect them to have high penetration, flat firing arks and long range at the cost of average accuracy, below-average AP damage and relatively slow turret traverse and elevation, good speed and manoeuvrability, bad torpedo protection (scusa generale Pugliese ), decent secondaries (an Italian friend of mine told me the 152s were stabilised) and solid AA defence. With these qualities I think they'd be different enough from all the other nations' BBs and yet maintain their inherent qualities, not to mention the stunning Italian looks. :3

 

By the way, do you think that the Littorio class is likely to be split between the early ships in the main tree and the Roma as a premium? I'd be willing to bet that WG would be more than happy to do the same thing that they've done with the Bismarck and Tirpitz. 

 

These considerations might work just for the Littorio-class, not as a whole, as, like Deamon93 pointed out, other ships in the BB tree will come out rather differently.

 

About the Pugliese TDS, I've created a topic about it, and my personal conclusion is that it was roughly comparable with other modern BBs' systems without dishonouring itself.

I strongly disagree about the slow turret rotation, because, other than IRL being false, I feel it's necessary to further balance the slow rate of fire of the gun themselves.

We'll have to see about the strong AA defense; Deamon93 is of the opinion that some what-if AA additions can be legitimately added (as no further improvements were made IRL after 1943), and it's good, but I don't think AA will ever be something the Littorio excels at.

[SparvieroVV]

It depends entirely on how aggressive WG plans to get with a C hull. Even replacing only the original twin 20mm and 37mm  twin mounts with 65/64 aa stations should see a handsome upgrade in medium range aa capability. Although I'm not holding out much hope. 

 

[Deamon93]

It depends entirely on how aggressive WG plans to get with a C hull. Even replacing only the original twin 20mm and 37mm  twin mounts with 65/64 aa stations should see a handsome upgrade in medium range aa capability. Although I'm not holding out much hope. 

 

Well if they replace the original mounts with 6x20/65 and quad 37/54 or the 65/64 would be quite an upgrade, plus they could replace the 120/15 with more AA guns like in case of the Zara-class. Anyway considering what they did to Bismarck(which has a similar issue) shouldn't be a problem

[SparvieroVV]

Well that is partially why I only hope for a conservative upgrade. Save the radical items for higher tiers. 

[FireflyActual]

Thanks for your replies. From what I gather the 65/64 wasn't ready for service before Italy pulled out of the war, it seems like a nice medium range AA gun. Was there an actual plan to replace the 20s with the 65? 

 

As for the BB characteristics I mentioned - you guys are absolutely right, I extrapolated what I supposed the Littorio-class BBs were going to be like over the entire tree. I wonder what WG will have in store for the later tiers though. As tempting as the Ansaldo projects look for tiers IX and X I'm not sure if WG will stick to them. Case in point - the Roon and the Hindenburg, both of which are works of fantasy (at least I haven't seen any documentation that would say otherwise, though I'd like to be proven wrong on this). I hope the same won't apply to either the French or the Italians, though IMHO the former will have more trouble finding suitable designs for high tiers. 

 

On another note, I'm having trouble finding any sources regarding Italian WW2 torpedoes, do you guys have any? I'm conversational in Italian so the language barrier isn't too much of an issue.  

[Deamon93]

Well that is partially why I only hope for a conservative upgrade. Save the radical items for higher tiers. 

 

Same here, although I would so love to see the AA refit planned for Conte di Cavour after Taranto at tier V to make Texas feel miserable plus CV players of course

 

Thanks for your replies. From what I gather the 65/64 wasn't ready for service before Italy pulled out of the war, it seems like a nice medium range AA gun. Was there an actual plan to replace the 20s with the 65? 

 

As for the BB characteristics I mentioned - you guys are absolutely right, I extrapolated what I supposed the Littorio-class BBs were going to be like over the entire tree. I wonder what WG will have in store for the later tiers though. As tempting as the Ansaldo projects look for tiers IX and X I'm not sure if WG will stick to them. Case in point - the Roon and the Hindenburg, both of which are works of fantasy (at least I haven't seen any documentation that would say otherwise, though I'd like to be proven wrong on this). I hope the same won't apply to either the French or the Italians, though IMHO the former will have more trouble finding suitable designs for high tiers. 

 

On another note, I'm having trouble finding any sources regarding Italian WW2 torpedoes, do you guys have any? I'm conversational in Italian so the language barrier isn't too much of an issue.  

 

It wasn't ready when the Armistice was signed, just like other new AA mounts planned. There were several mounts in the works: 4x20/65(for Medaglie d'Oro), 6x20/65(for Aquila and potentially other capital ships), 4x37/54(again for Medaglie d'Oro) and the 65/64. Don't know if the plan was to replace the old twin mounts but it's likely since those were a dated design(the oldest designed in 1935).

 

It's not a problem, Littorio is the most known out of the bunch and, in a sense, represents in part how the line will look like(BC 1930 and UP.41 have traits in common with her). Perhaps they won't but I don't see why outright inventing when there's material which you can take without any major modificationin case of the Spanish CA and with modifications on the armament for the Russian one. For BBs is more complicated(at least for tier X) but it's to be expected(also France has a similar issue).

 

For torpedoes there's navweaps for WWII ones, for WWI ones I don't know any I'm afraid

[SparvieroVV]

I'm not worried at all. once WG actually throws money at the issue I'm sure what they need will be found. 

[Deamon93]

I'm not worried at all. once WG actually throws money at the issue I'm sure what they need will be found. 

Like everything, you just need to throw enough money at the problem. Only time will tell what they'll do but I would rather wait than to have a rushed line with potentially a lot of issues

 

[Historynerd]

So, I have been thinking over fnord_disc's much appreciated discussion about armour mechanics, and especially the lack of any layer-armour simulation.

 

Given that the Littorio's armour scheme revolved around this concept, these are bad news, even because, although a uniform 350 mm belt will be probably substituted, in my opinion this does not give the ship the theoretical protection and "immune zone" that the decapping plate gave. And this is kind of a big nerf in my opinion, since the tough citadel armour was going to be one of the Littorio's strengths.

 

To go around it, I believe that the only feasible solution to balance this out is to buff the main armament, even more than what we considered before. To compensate for the loss of a bit of protection, the Model 1934 guns cannot fire so slowly. 

So, a reload time of 32 to 35 seconds seems to be reasonable to me. Because otherwise I'm afraid that the Littorio cannot be truly adequate at Tier 8.

 

What do you think?

[Deamon93]

I considered a RoF of 2 rpm, lower would be rather boring. Regarding her protection has on her side also the angling, improving the relative thickness. In any case only time will tell how WG balances her(and similar designs, she's not the only one with multiple layers)

[ImperialAdmiral]

Hey.

 

I just wanted to ask a quick question.

 

Does anyone know if Osprey's Italian battleships of WWII is worth buying?

[Historynerd]

Hey.

 

I just wanted to ask a quick question.

 

Does anyone know if Osprey's Italian battleships of WWII is worth buying?

 

I have it, translated to Italian.

 

It's good for beginners, as an introduction to the topic, and it does get things straight (emphasizing that, although their tactical success was modest if any, their strategic role was far from minimal).

However, for people already versed in the matter, and who look for details, it doesn't tell anything that you don't know already.

[ImperialAdmiral]

 

I have it, translated to Italian.

 

It's good for beginners, as an introduction to the topic, and it does get things straight (emphasizing that, although their tactical success was modest if any, their strategic role was far from minimal).

However, for people already versed in the matter, and who look for details, it doesn't tell anything that you don't know already.

 

Just as I thought. I probably won't bother then.

I already have arguably the best books about Regia Marina warships that are in English.

Thank you.

[Mayo0666]

what a good Job !!

[Deamon93]

what a good Job !!

 

Thank you!

[Snowyskies]

Yeah, my posts in this thread were a bit negative as I was only complaining about your destroyers, but it's a good tech tree overall. Unlike most tech three posts around you have actually put in a lot of effort into this which makes it a much more interesting read. I still hope you revisit the destroyer tree after the IJN rebalance and the German DD line release but regardless, good job!

 

Now secretly I consider stealing that Ansaldo design for Spain to cobble together a minor European nations cruiser tree, but that's another story . Actually on that note you wouldn't happen to be aware of any other Italian designs for other (European) nations, would you? Maybe you have stumbled across some while doing research for the Italian tree. For example according to Navypedia the Swedish Tre Kronor is based on an Italian design which originally was to have 3 triple gun turrets so it would be interesting to know if there were any drawings made and still around of this original proposal.

[Deamon93]

Tre Kronor was a CRDA project as far as I recall. There might be other iterations of the design but I'm not sure.

 

Regarding other designs I'll check but it will take some time. As of now I recall the destroyers for Romania, Greece and the various ships given around

[Rompiuova]

Astounding work, please keep going :-)

[Deamon93]

Astounding work, please keep going :-)

 

Thank you! Well the work is pretty much done except a few details but I'll promote it

[DandyDozer]

We will definitely appreciate Italian tree, not even being Italian myself:-)

[Deamon93]

Next Q&A by Sub_Octavian on reddit.

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Elimer

As always thank you for answering! My question is: Now Moskva has the largest caliber(220mm) in 'world of cruisers', Can we see bigger main gun in future?(Like Deutschland's 11" guns or 10" guns of Ansaldo large cruiser design for Soviet navy)

Is it under NDA?

 

Sub_Octavian: You are welcome!

Yes, we can, and most likely, we will. It is under NDA, so don't tell anyone;)

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Considering his reply there's hope for the tier X cruiser. Considering the answer I wonder if this could make the use of UP.90&co as tree material viable(since I kept them aside due to how difficult it is to balance them out).