Fubuki speed?

[VC381]

So I was playing my Benson the other day with Trainspite in his Fubuki and he said to me "feel free to go ahead if you're faster I only do 35 knots". I thought, that doesn't make sense so I looked it up. Fubuki is rated as a 38 knot ship but in game only does 35.

 

Now, I don't play the IJN DD line so I have no vested interest in Fubuki getting buffed but why is she so slow?

 

I know that extra weight and wartime refits reduced her speed compared to as-built but in game almost all ships use optimistic trial speeds. I don't believe Mogami, or Myoko, or Kirov made 35+ knots in real combat conditions but they do in game. It seems inconsistent for Fubuki to be hit with "realism" in this way when basically nothing else is.

[Mayv]

Fubuki used to do 35.8knots before the speed rounding changes when it was reduced to 35knots.

 

It would be nice if the Fubuki was faster but a lot of the high tier DDs are slow as well.

[VC381]

Yes you're right, Benson is the odd one out doing 38 knots when most of the other high tier US DDs do 35 or 36. Still, speeds of most ships match up quite well with design or trial figures on Wiki but Fubuki seems to have lost a few knots somewhere. I wasn't aware of the speed rounding but it sounds like it should have become 36.

[_Flyto_]

It's one of Fubuki's weaknesses (the other big one, in my eyes, being the turning circle that is bigger than some battleships'). It means that she's a very risky ship to get close with, because if you get spotted then you can't outrun the cruisers that are chasing you!

The speed flag and Superintendent (for extra speed boosts) helps to mitigate this somewhat.

[T_H_0_R]

What _Flyto_ said. For this reason I have Superintendent & premium consumables and use all my speed boost flags with Fubuki exclusively. With Hull B and those two stern turrets she is perfect for unleashing high alfa first salvo followed by kiting while running away. I've gunned down two full HP Bensons in 6km duels with this tactic recently, and with SE skill had 4k HP left to continue torping the enemy fleet. Best of all, those Type93/mod.2 torpedoes pretty much guarantee one shot kill if they "merge" with an enemy DD. So while turning away in a duel be sure to spread some Long Lance love around.

 

[_Teob_]

What _Flyto_ said. For this reason I have Superintendent & premium consumables and use all my speed boost flags with Fubuki exclusively. With Hull B and those two stern turrets she is perfect for unleashing high alfa first salvo followed by kiting while running away. I've gunned down two full HP Bensons in 6km duels with this tactic recently, and with SE skill had 4k HP left to continue torping the enemy fleet. Best of all, those Type93/mod.2 torpedoes pretty much guarantee one shot kill if they "merge" with an enemy DD. So while turning away in a duel be sure to spread some Long Lance love around.

 

I genuinely think that you can only do that vs Bensons as their guns aren't great.

 

A fletcher or a Gearing especially will eat you alive and you will do like 6-7k dmg to it tops.

[T_H_0_R]

 

I genuinely think that you can only do that vs Bensons as their guns aren't great.

 

A fletcher or a Gearing especially will eat you alive and you will do like 6-7k dmg to it tops.

 

True dat. And add to that the Blys as well. That is the one ship I have nothing but bad experience every time I tried dueling with guns. Great arcs and vastly superior speed.

 

Fletcher and Gearing aren't as fast as Benson IIRC. I was able to run away from one who focused on hunting me down the whole match.

[Mayv]

 

Fletcher and Gearing aren't as fast as Benson IIRC.

 

36.5 and 36 knots

[Mayv]

I wasn't aware of the speed rounding but it sounds like it should have become 36.

 

Happened a few patches ago. All ships were rounded down (except some of the low tier Russian DDs that received a speed buff at the same time). Still a bit annoyed that Fubuki lost 0.8 instead of 0.3, I think the Hatsuharu lost 0.6 as well.

[DominusEdwardius]

Wasn't the 38 knot top speed before the ships were rebuilt to improve stability in 1935, which caused the displacement to go from some 1750 tons to 2040 tons and hence dropped the top speed to 34-35 knots. But I take your point though about other ships going a bit faster than they probably should. I remember reading a long time ago on the forum that the top speed of one of the Russian destroyers was that of an speed trial where the ship didn't have any armament full stop, how true It was I don't know but it wouldn't surprise me one bit

 

[VC381]

Wasn't the 38 knot top speed before the ships were rebuilt to improve stability in 1935, which caused the displacement to go from some 1750 tons to 2040 tons and hence dropped the top speed to 34-35 knots. But I take your point though about other ships going a bit faster than they probably should. I remember reading a long time ago on the forum that the top speed of one of the Russian destroyers was that of an speed trial where the ship didn't have any armament full stop, how true It was I don't know but it wouldn't surprise me one bit

 

Yes, I agree that the refit was probably part of WGs logic for the reduced speed but Wiki just says the rebuild "reduced speed slightly" without giving a number, and this isn't a ship type I have extensive research on to check the actual reduction.

 

You're probably talking about Tashkent. She did indeed run speed trials without main armament but she was built in Italy where these sort of shenanigans were not uncommon. Wiki lists her speed as 43.5 knots, in game she does 42.5 which still sounds very optimistic.

 

I wouldn't say the Russians are the only culprits although its easy to assign ludicrous design speeds to ships that were never built. The IJN cruisers all use speeds close to trial speeds even though many, just like Fubuki, were refitted extensively and lost a few knots in the process. 

[EsaTuunanen]

Wasn't the 38 knot top speed before the ships were rebuilt to improve stability in 1935, which caused the displacement to go from some 1750 tons to 2040 tons and hence dropped the top speed to 34-35 knots.

That stability improvement was done by adding ballast after 1934's incident of one torpedo boat doing half of kayak roll showed vulnerability of top heavy IJN designs.

Rebuilt was done to strengthen ships after typhoon damaged basically all ships in one of the IJN's fleets in 1935 causing two Fubuki class destroyers to lose their bow.

 

[Z_OnkelE]

I genuinely think that you can only do that vs Bensons as their guns aren't great.

Uhm... ok.

A fletcher [...]

Haven't those guns been labeled "not great"?!

 

 

Because of the gun characteristics of US DD T5 to T10, hitting a fleeing DD is indeed the worst scenario. But T8 and T9 guns behave the same, especially in this case. I found them to be reliable for what they are good at, they are surely not "not great". When I encounter a US DD in any of my DDs I try to simply be farther away than 8 km. That alone helps a lot.

[byronicasian]

Wasn't the 38 knot top speed before the ships were rebuilt to improve stability in 1935, which caused the displacement to go from some 1750 tons to 2040 tons and hence dropped the top speed to 34-35 knots. But I take your point though about other ships going a bit faster than they probably should. I remember reading a long time ago on the forum that the top speed of one of the Russian destroyers was that of an speed trial where the ship didn't have any armament full stop, how true It was I don't know but it wouldn't surprise me one bit

 

IIRC, the Tashkent's "contractual" displacement for the speed trials were supposed to be around 3200t (w/o weapons). She however ran it 200 tons heavier (presumably w. ballast, that conveniently comes to the weight of 3 B2-LM mounts). Looks like the Russians tried to pull a shenanigan on top of Italy's shenanigans especially since they had to pay a bonus to OTO for every knot above the 40kt design speed. 

 

I had compiled a list of speed inconsistancies a while back. The Iowa one is no longer correct, since she's been given 33 knots instead of 30.7 (number WG seems to have taken directly from Friedman)

 

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/37177-german-battleships/page__st__40__pid__830838#entry830838

 

What little standards applied seem to be that: speeds must be that achieved w/o running the powerplant past what it was rated. Displacement standards used are mixed bag. Some are speed trials done at Standard  Displacement, some rather "optimistically". *

 

*Most evident for the speed given the Shimakaze, instead of the 41kt speed achieved at 1/2 displacement, and running the engines at 79,000 SHP (rated for 75,000), they took the speeds achieved at 2/3rd displacement @ 75,000 shp, which was 39.4 knots.

 

The speeds given to the IJN Cruisers in game  (35kts) reflect initial speed trials (prior to stability refits) taken under light conditions. Instead of 2/3rd Trial speed (as seen with the Shimakaze and other special types), which is defined in the book Full load less 1/3rd fuel/reserve fee/oil, they ran the trials some 1000 t lighter (12,350 t vs the proper 13,300t)

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=o7XgAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA7&lpg=PA7&dq=myoko+class+speed+trials&source=bl&ots=_gUvu9Zrob&sig=hGUNG51AUCwxKhg0tBQYU3N8NtY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjnsu7-nK_NAhUKVT4KHd8tDcEQ6AEIOjAE#v=onepage&q=speed%20trials&f=false

 

(see page 5, or Ctrl F speed trials)

 

TL; DR - the pecking order of speeds is, Operational speeds (if data available like Iowa, Kongo, Special types and large bevy of other BBs and previously Iyaslav), otherwise the greater of trial or design speeds. I presume depending on how well the ship is performing, it will also determine "how optimistic" the standards applied will be. 

[_Teob_]

Uhm... ok.

Haven't those guns been labeled "not great"?!

 

 

Because of the gun characteristics of US DD T5 to T10, hitting a fleeing DD is indeed the worst scenario. But T8 and T9 guns behave the same, especially in this case. I found them to be reliable for what they are good at, they are surely not "not great". When I encounter a US DD in any of my DDs I try to simply be farther away than 8 km. That alone helps a lot.

 

Dude, are you one of those people that likes to start arguments?

 

Fletcher has an extra gun. That's a 25% increase in damage over the Benson. That's why the Fletcher will do considerably more damage than the Benson (and the Gearing has an extra 20% more guns than the Fletcher or a massive 50% over the Benson, not to mention that is has a faster reload speed as well)  so no, I wasn't contradicting myself as you're trying to imply.

 

On top of that the Fletcher and the Gearing have access to the main battery mod 3 which reduces the reload time by an additional 12% (although you are unlikely to run into anyone running that over the torpedo reload)

 

 

[Ictogan]

 

Dude, are you one of those people that likes to start arguments?

 

Fletcher has an extra gun. That's a 25% increase in damage over the Benson. That's why the Fletcher will do considerably more damage than the Benson (and the Gearing has an extra 20% more guns than the Fletcher or a massive 50% over the Benson, not to mention that is has a faster reload speed as well)  so no, I wasn't contradicting myself as you're trying to imply.

 

On top of that the Fletcher and the Gearing have access to the main battery mod 3 which reduces the reload time by an additional 12% (although you are unlikely to run into anyone running that over the torpedo reload)

 

 

 

Last time I've checked both Benson and Fletcher had 5 guns...

[_Teob_]

 

Last time I've checked both Benson and Fletcher had 5 guns...

 

I could have sworn the Benson has 4 guns. At least the stock version. Unless I am going totally crazy

 

Edit: I am sure that at least in some configurations it's got 4 guns. I just checked one my replays and a Benson was shooting 4 shells at me per salvo.

 

Am I going totally insane? lol

[Ictogan]

 

I could have sworn the Benson has 4 guns. At least the stock version. Unless I am going totally crazy

 

Just checked, it has indeed 5. Although on the C hull it loses a gun for a bit of AA and the ability to mount the defensive fire consumable. However I see very few people with that hull around.

[_Teob_]

 

Just checked, it has indeed 5. Although on the C hull it loses a gun for a bit of AA and the ability to mount the defensive fire consumable. However I see very few people with that hull around.

 

Doesn't the C hull have better torpedoes or something like that? And more health iirc.

[Ictogan]

 

Doesn't the C hull have better torpedoes or something like that? And more health iirc.

 

Nope, just AA and a little bit faster rudder.

[_Teob_]

 

Nope, just AA and a little bit faster rudder.

 

Than my initial point stands but only partially. If, while sailing a Fubuki, you run into a c hull Benson (with 4 guns) then you should be able to deal with it to an extent. If you run into the 5 gun variants or a Fletcher, you will probably die. If you run into a Gearing you will die. This is all obviously if you chose to fight it

 

Thanks for the info Ictogan - at least I am not going totally insane and there are 4 gun Bensons sailing around haha

[VC381]

 

 

 

Thank you, very informative and entertaining (the Russia vs. Italy shenanigans). Basically speed trials data is at best a mixed bag of national biases made worse by WG cherry picking numbers to suit balance reasons. I can accept that

 

At least it isn't as bad as the way they cherry pick optimistic or pessimistic RoF for balance, or the outright fantasy of other "soft stats" like turret traverse speed.

[lafeel]

According to Destroyers of World War 2 the Fubuki class was never powered for more than 35 knots, even before the strengthening treatement, which cost them at least a knot of that speed..

 

Guess they had to cut corners somewhere even early on.

[Z_OnkelE]

Dude, are you one of those people that likes to start arguments?

 

Fletcher has an extra gun. That's a 25% increase in damage over the Benson.

 

Duuude... I guess other pointed out how Benson hulls work. But still: every turret has the same characteristics regardless if you look at the Benson's or the Fletcher's. There is only the small difference of 1.3 km in range.

[_Teob_]

 

Duuude... I guess other pointed out how Benson hulls work. But still: every turret has the same characteristics regardless if you look at the Benson's or the Fletcher's. There is only the small difference of 1.3 km in range.

I am fully aware that the Benson, Fletcher and Gearing have the same guns (albeit I was hazy on their number in the different setups ). 

 

Bensons seem more manageable somehow - maybe it's their lower health or maybe it's something else.

 

What I was trying to say is that a Fubuki might have a chance against a Benson but it will lose against a Fletcher or a Gearing. Is your experience different while sailing in the Fletcher or the Gearing?