Should Wargaming increase the damage of CITADEL overpenetrations?

[CosMoe]

At the moment citadel overpenetrations deal 10% of the maximum shell damage, the same as normal overpenetrations.

 

This game mechanic is a serious problem for BB players that actively push for objectives and engage cruisers at distances lower than 10 km.

In ranked matches my Nagato has already had multiple encounters where 6+ shell hits (around the waterline) on a parallel enemy cruiser at low ranges resulted in extremely low damage because the Nagato's 410mm shells seem to overpenetrate not only the normal armor but also the citadels of the relatively lightly armored tier 6&7 cruisers.

 

Thus, BBs going into brawling range with cruisers are penalized not only in their survivability (getting torped, getting focused by multiple enemies, getting high damage AP penetrations from cruisers), but are also severely penalized in their main gun damage output.

 

This means that at low ranges the intended game balance (BB>CA>DD>BB) is inverted because now CA>BB. This may be one of the reasons why a lot of BB players play less aggressively and instead keep their distance to the enemy cruisers, which is not a behaviour that most teams want of their BB players.

 

Furthermore, let's think about what a citadel overpenetration would be like on a real cruiser. A 410mm shell smashing through a citadel at 700 meters per second would certainly deal devastating damage because of either the armor spalling damage or simply because any vital machinery in its path (e.g., boilers) would be destroyed, even when the AP shell does not explode and exit the citadel on the opposite site.

 

The solution to this problem would be to either increase the damage of citadel overpenetrations (I personally would prefer 30%) or to model all the vital machinery inside the citadels and increasing the complexity of the shell penetration game mechanics by checking if the AP shell hits any solid object inside the citadel that would be destroyed or would activate the fuze and explode the shell.

[Isitari]

Bringing in real life discussion into an arcade game is pointless. Balance is the most important parameter and as BB's already rule the sea with some of best win rates and avg. damage their is really no need to buff them even more. It's not like BB's can't already make cruisers utterly evaporate in one salvo ;).

[CosMoe]

Bringing in real life discussion into an arcade game is pointless. Balance is the most important parameter and as BB's already rule the sea with some of best win rates and avg. damage their is really no need to buff them even more. It's not like BB's can't already make cruisers utterly evaporate in one salvo ;).

 

This is why I brought up the point of an inverted game balance before the "real life" argument: At low ranges cruisers can citadel and torp BBs while BBs will mostly overpenetrate cruisers, thus at brawling ranges CA>BB.

This leads to an inverted game balance that has a negative influence on gameplay as BBs will want to stay behind their cruisers instead of tanking and pushing for objectives.

[Kazomir]

BBs are powerful enough as it is. So without some balancing nerf to counteract that buff I am against this.

[Amon_ITA]

Every gameplay modification that encourages BB captains to take their ships to the front is welcome.

[Praxics]

 

Nope.

 

Because BB as is do a lot of DMG already and that includes current low DMG overpens.

If you want higher overpen DMG then you have to give up on cita DMG to balance it out.

 

[Kazomir]

Every gameplay modification that encourages BB captains to take their ships to the front is welcome.

 

 CV player spotted

[Domin1c]

Nerf cruisers and buff BB's? Seems BB mafia is done with the crusade against CV's for now. Is nothing sacred?

 

[edited]

[AwesomeChicken]

Maybe if this increased citadel overpen dmg only counts for horizontal overpens, but not vertical overpens to make sure that "I-will-camp-at-20km-and-maybe-get-some-lucky-hits-BBs" wont profit from that.

[AwesomeChicken]

 Nerf cruisers and buff BB's? Seems BB mafia is done with the crusade against CV's for now. Is nothing sacred?

 It is only meant to be a buff on shorter ranges, at which overpens are a serious problem for 410mm guns.

 

[Tomy117]

Accuracy buff maybe, damage buff? Naaaa BB are powerful enough

[Kazomir]

 It is only meant to be a buff on shorter ranges, at which overpens are a serious problem for 410mm guns.

 

 

At shorter ranges these shells dont overpen the citadel but rather the hull itself. The citadel is below water and the shells dont quite have the needed trajectory.

 

As for cit overpen damage buff, only if citadel damage gets nerfed with it, so cruisers are encouraged to get close, otherwisr you get  invisifiring cruisers and snipers that refuse to screen afaiinst DDs at which point BB babies will cry for a DD nerf.

[Domin1c]

What, you cant reliably blow up cruisers at 8km in your BB? What's wrong with you?

Start aiming 10px below the waterline where the citadel is. This is turning into a "l2p" issue with increasing speed, but that never stopped the BB mafia

 

 

[Vanhal]

What, you cant reliably blow up cruisers at 8km in your BB? What's wrong with you?

Start aiming 10px below the waterline where the citadel is. This is turning into a "l2p" issue with increasing speed, but that never stopped the BB mafia

 

 

 

If you were interested above spewing bullcrap, you would know it is discussed at RU server too and was discussed on Reddit and NA forum. It is about, read once more, CITADEL OVERPENS, not HITTING CITADEL.

[CosMoe]

What, you cant reliably blow up cruisers at 8km in your BB? What's wrong with you?

Start aiming 10px below the waterline where the citadel is. This is turning into a "l2p" issue with increasing speed, but that never stopped the BB mafia

 

 

 

Once you get to rank 1 in all seasons you can tell me to "l2p".

Until then.... please stick to gameplay arguments and do not embarrass yourself like that. 

[AttiliusRex]

30% to me makes sense since its a ~third of a citadel penetration, which is consistent of 10% damage for normal penetrations being a third of normal penetration damage.

 

In short an overpenetration would always do a third of the damage it would have done incase of a detonation.

[Kazomir]

 

Once you get to rank 1 in all seasons you can tell me to "l2p".

Until then.... please stick to gameplay arguments and do not embarrass yourself like that. 

 

No offense, but given enough time, most people can reach rank 1.

 

As it stands BBs are borderline OP  and cruisers are not encouraged to get in close anyways, why make the situation worse?

[Ictogan]

 

No offense, but given enough time, most people anyone can reach rank 1.

 

FTFY.

[_Lawine_]

 

No offense, but given enough time, most people can reach rank 1.

 

As it stands BBs are borderline OP  and cruisers are not encouraged to get in close anyways, why make the situation worse?

 

absolutely not,

 

skill>>time

 

if player dont enough skill for higher ranks no matter he played a lot or not, he will stay at low ranks

[Kazomir]

 

absolutely not,

 

skill>>time

 

if player dont enough skill for higher ranks no matter he played a lot or not, he will stay at low ranks

 

Not really. As time passes the skilled players reach rank 1 and retire from ranked, thus only noobs remain in the roster and eventually even noobs reach rank 1.

[AwesomeChicken]

Well, actually Cruisers are my main class, but I still favour an dmg increase for citadel overpens. 30% of the max shell dmg sounds about right.

Thing is, I like to get close, to brawl, in practically any ship class (well except CVs). When you get close in a CA or a DD you can do massive dmg with your torps and AP (assuming the enemy shows his side). But BBs are a bit left behind in close quarters situations.

 

Just imagine this little scenario:

You are in a Nagato. Your team is behind on points and you are the only one close enough to a capture point. So you charge in. The cap is defended by an enemy Nürnberg. He charges you, but you manage to dodge his torps. Now he is trying to turn out and probably trying to get off the torps on the other side. Your guns are loaded just when he shows a perfect broadside. You line up a waterline shot.

 

What results can you expect?

 

Pretty much everything.

You can blow him out of the water immediately

or you can get a 2k dmg salvo thanks to citadel overpens because your shells have so much penetration that they punch through the entire ship.

 

1. This is unrealistic. A 410mm shell that punches through the most vital parts of a ship will cause significant dmg, even without detonating and

2. It prevents BBs from getting close and tanking dmg for their team because long range plunging fire seems to cause more reliable dmg

 

Thats why I am for an citadel overpen dmg increase. Even as a Cruiser, since BBs tanking dmg for you is exactly what you want from them.

[CosMoe]

 

No offense, but given enough time, most people can reach rank 1.

 

True for the last 3 seasons, that is why I posted these suggestions 6 months ago. Compare these suggestions to the changes that were finally implemented this season.

 

But let's get back on the topic.

If you think BBs would get too strong then of course they need to be balanced accordingly. Lower citadel damage, maybe. 

I just want to improve the overall gameplay in a way that does not overly penalize BBs that actually do their job in contrast to "sniper" BBs that hang around behind their cruisers.

[viceadmiral123]

Citadel can get over-penetration? Are you sure your shells are not just hitting superstructure and water

 

[robihr]

 

list of WOWS updates:

DD nerf - done

CV nerf - done

CA nerf - pending

DD nerf - pending

CV nerf - pending

CA nerf - pending

DD nerf - pending

CV nerf - pending

CA nerf - pending

DD nerf - pending

CV nerf - pending

 

oh look, suggestion for indirect CA nerf... who would have expected that

[Kazomir]

 

oh look, suggestion for indirect CA nerf... who would have expected that

 

Stealthdire nerf, counts for something too.