Making the 155mm Mogami viable

[Takeda92]

I've been thinking about this for a while but I didn't have the Mogami. Now I do and I tried it and honestly I think this can work.. in random battles at least.

 

The biggest complain about the 155mm is the turret traverse of 51.4 seconds. With the Expert Marksmen this can be lowered to around 43s which is still rather high. However, I used Main Battery Modification 2 which gives an extra 15% turret traverse, With this, you can get up to 37s per 180 degrees turret traverse, which is 1 second slower than Non-EM Aoba, or 2 seconds faster than Myoko without the MBM2 module.

 

The downside is you lose 10% of your RoF.. from 10s down to 11s, and your guns are less accurate because you won't be using the Accuracy module.

First of all, that's not a big problem since Mogami has a lot of DPM and you can afford to lose some of it. After all, think of all the lost DPM while waiting for your turrets to turn. Since you have 15 guns, who needs accuracy?

 

Now in patch 0.5.7 they will reduce the RoF penalty for MBM2 to 5%, which means Mogami's new RoF with this will be 10.5 seconds. Honestly, this seems like a nice trade off for around 30% increase for turret traverse. The turret HP has been buffed along with all the other turrets in one of the previous patches so they are not as easy to destroy. I've lost 1 turret in 6 games so far and I was being fired at from 3 cruisers.

 

TL;DR, 37 seconds turret traverse and 10.5 seconds RoF on 155mm Mogami is rather.. ok assuming you have an Atago and just want a different ship, or you've put your IJN cruiser line on hold because you don't want to bother playing the ship with that horrible traverse.

 

[piritskenyer]

Actually, this is interesting, might give it a go. Now I have the 8" setup, and I'm quite content with it, if not for the fact that I find it plain, boring, and absolutely just a worse version of the Atago bar the turret layout.

 

If the 155mm setup turns out playable, it might just set the ship apart enough from the Atago to be interesting.

[xXx_Blogis_xXx]

u know , i played mogami after aft nerf and etc with 155 and de skil and u know it wasnt that bad

[VC381]

You make a good point, I think MBM2 is already a nice module for some ships and with the buffs it would be quite interesting. I've just learned to deal with Myoko traverse (considered using MBM2 but in the end didn't and don't regret it) so your setup seems quite appealing.

 

On the other hand, not sure why we need to jump through hoops to make 155mm Mogami work when e.g. Chapayev has the same shell per minute output (12*7.5 = 15*6) without the traverse downside AND with longer range, or worse that Shchors has the same armament a Tier lower.

 

Still, the Mogami provides nice looks if nothing else. I am enjoying Myoko so I'll end up researching Mogami sooner or later and I'll try her out with this setup.

[Takeda92]

u know , i played mogami after aft nerf and etc with 155 and de skil and u know it wasnt that bad

 

My biggest issue with the ship is how fragile she is to AP, not the guns. The guns are doing alright, but not even angling is saving you from citadel hits (not that Myoko was any better in this regard).

 

I really would like to know which part of my ship has 140mm of armor. I don't think it covers the citadel under my turrets because that's where most of my angled citadel pens come from.

[xXx_Blogis_xXx]

 

My biggest issue with the ship is how fragile she is to AP, not the guns. The guns are doing alright, but not even angling is saving you from citadel hits (not that Myoko was any better in this regard).

 

I really would like to know which part of my ship has 140mm of armor. I don't think it covers the citadel under my turrets because that's where most of my angled citadel pens come from.

 

with all respect why i do need ap , when with he and burn i can do more Sure from close ap fine , but its meh

[JapLance]

Been there, done that, turned to 203mm.

 

I really tried hard to keep with the 155mm when they did all the changes to captain skills. 155mm HE does minimal damage to armoured targets, turret turn rate is still bad, and the only real duty you can do with the 155mm, DD hunting, needs a faster turret turn.

[Takeda92]

 

with all respect why i do need ap , when with he and burn i can do more Sure from close ap fine , but its meh

 

I was talking about those 16 inch battleship AP shells that put holes right into your deck armor 

 

Even 14 inch hurt so much 

[VC381]

 

I was talking about those 16 inch battleship AP shells that put holes right into your deck armor 

 

Even 14 inch hurt so much 

 

I don't understand why people expect cruisers to bounce BB shells, they just aren't meant to. Armor comparison for cruisers should be against cruiser guns, no?

[Ferry_25]

IMO all IJN cruisers are citadels with propellors and guns. I've gotten used to that a long time ago. It's in my experience a matter of moving much and changing speeds a lot and extremely aniticipating situations: when caught in a focus fire there's almost no chance of getting away with it. I have unlocked Mogami recently and still finding my way in it. I will certainly take your advice in consideration. But the rahter quick maneuvrability of the ship compensates a lot for the turret trav time.

[piritskenyer]

You make a good point, I think MBM2 is already a nice module for some ships and with the buffs it would be quite interesting. I've just learned to deal with Myoko traverse (considered using MBM2 but in the end didn't and don't regret it) so your setup seems quite appealing.

 

On the other hand, not sure why we need to jump through hoops to make 155mm Mogami work when e.g. Chapayev has the same shell per minute output (12*7.5 = 15*6) without the traverse downside AND with longer range, or worse that Shchors has the same armament a Tier lower.

 

Still, the Mogami provides nice looks if nothing else. I am enjoying Myoko so I'll end up researching Mogami sooner or later and I'll try her out with this setup.

 

Well, the supposed reasoning behind the 155mm setup of the Mogami being worse than VMF 6" cruisers in general is that Mogami was not intended to be a CL, she was built as such to hvae a pseudo CL in the fleet since they were rearmed with 8" guns shortly before the war, etc.

In reality wether they were intended or not, the 155mm triple mounts could train at a rate of 6°/sec, and had a maximum rate of fire of 6/min due to the powder hoists not being able to supply any more (when pusghed to their limit that is...), so what we have now is a nerfed-to-the-ground version of the triple 155 mount. EM used to bring the rotation in line with historical stats though, so that's a bit problematic.

[Takeda92]

 

I don't understand why people expect cruisers to bounce BB shells, they just aren't meant to. Armor comparison for cruisers should be against cruiser guns, no?

 

Which is why I run to the side of the map that has the least BBs in it.

 

If only people accept BBs getting massive damage from torpedoes and carriers too, and not ask for nerfs to them all the time......

[Vanhal]

Make ALL stock ships viable.
 

 

[VC381]

Make ALL stock ships viable.

 

 

 

Except that Mogami is specifically advertised as a modular ship with a choice of guns and hence playstyle, in which case both choices should be viable.

[Vanhal]

 

Except that Mogami is specifically advertised as a modular ship

 

Hm? Where? To me it always was like the WG was faithful to history and included the refit, same as they did with Furutaka recently. Even more, during the AFT time they were worried about stock config being better than the top iirc.

[piritskenyer]

 

Hm? Where? To me it always was like the WG was faithful to history and included the refit, same as they did with Furutaka recently. Even more, during the AFT time they were worried about stock config being better than the top iirc.

 

Except they are not being faithful to history. While yes, Mogami was intended to be used as a CA from the start, the CL config was never historically as terrible as it is in game now. In short, the 155 setup is overnerfed.

And maybe historically speaking they were never used as CL's in combat, but in game, it would be the only outstanding feature of an otherwise boring-as-all-hell (and frankly not very good) ship. That plus the modularity most players liked about her pre-nerf made her unique and interesting.

[VC381]

Mogami isn't a very good ship because she wasn't historically either. My favorite quote is the British Naval Architect who, when told what the ships could allegedly do on a 10,000t displacement, said the Japanese were "either building their ships out of cardboard or lying". The truth was arguably closer to the former than the latter. She is where she is in game out of some respect for chronology of design/construction, not much else.

 

Thing is, the big IJN heavy cruiser classes, Myoko, Takao, Mogami and even Ibuki are so similar in terms of real life capability that there's nothing to justify them spanning three tiers in game, other than artificial nerfs/buffs.

 

What I think WG could do is buff her turret traverse to historical, so 30s same as the 203s, but link that gun module to the "A" hull. That way if you want to play a Mogami CL as built, that's exactly what you get, with the poor construction (lower HP) and crap AA that comes with it (but also higher speed, give her 36 knots as on trials). It would be an odd case where playing a ship stock is a viable choice, but most ships don't completely change guns halfway through their careers!

[mrak1979]

Mogami isn't a very good ship because she wasn't historically either. My favorite quote is the British Naval Architect who, when told what the ships could allegedly do on a 10,000t displacement, said the Japanese were "either building their ships out of cardboard or lying". The truth was arguably closer to the former than the latter. She is where she is in game out of some respect for chronology of design/construction, not much else.

 

Thing is, the big IJN heavy cruiser classes, Myoko, Takao, Mogami and even Ibuki are so similar in terms of real life capability that there's nothing to justify them spanning three tiers in game, other than artificial nerfs/buffs.

 

What I think WG could do is buff her turret traverse to historical, so 30s same as the 203s, but link that gun module to the "A" hull. That way if you want to play a Mogami CL as built, that's exactly what you get, with the poor construction (lower HP) and crap AA that comes with it (but also higher speed, give her 36 knots as on trials). It would be an odd case where playing a ship stock is a viable choice, but most ships don't completely change guns halfway through their careers!

 

Mogami maybe isnt best of its class but she withstand very overwhelming damge before sunk! Mogami class cruisers were constructed too light and weak because of weight saving but after but after upgrades they were pretty solid ship and all of the IJN heavy cruisers could be counted among the best of the class! Fighting record of the IJN’s heavy cruiser force was unmatched by any other navy during World War II! Only USN Baltimore and Des Moines class cruisers best them certainly in therms of design.

[piritskenyer]

 

Mogami maybe isnt best of its class but she withstand very overwhelming damge before sunk! Mogami class cruisers were constructed too light and weak because of weight saving but after but after upgrades they were pretty solid ship and all of the IJN heavy cruisers could be counted among the best of the class! Fighting record of the IJN’s heavy cruiser force was unmatched by any other navy during World War II! Only USN Baltimore and Des Moines class cruisers best them certainly in therms of design.

 

I disagree. I found Mogami's survivability to be rather poor compared to the previous ships in the line and the Atago (even discounting Atago's heal). Her armour only holds up only against almost straight frontal cruiser fire, everything else is bound to inflict significant damage. Her maneuverability isn't all that great either IMO, which makes dodging incoming fire a bit more tricky.

[orlathebeast]

#makemogamigreatagain

[Vanhal]

 

Except they are not being faithful to history. While yes, Mogami was intended to be used as a CA from the start, the CL config was never historically as terrible as it is in game now. In short, the 155 setup is overnerfed.

And maybe historically speaking they were never used as CL's in combat, but in game, it would be the only outstanding feature of an otherwise boring-as-all-hell (and frankly not very good) ship. That plus the modularity most players liked about her pre-nerf made her unique and interesting.

 

Except that we are now in the starting point. Just why we are even talking about stock ships being better than maxed? That was never possible in any WG game and that mogami WAS better on stock has been only due to skill that wasn't very thoughtfully implemented in the first place. Skill was changed and stock Mogami suck just as every other stock ship. Not to mention that 155 on mogami was temporary solution, they were planned from the start to replace them if Washington Treaty would be voided.

 

Or maybe, i love the look of stock Myogi, Kongo, Fuso. Can we buff them to be better or at least equal to maxed?

[mrak1979]

 

I disagree. I found Mogami's survivability to be rather poor compared to the previous ships in the line and the Atago (even discounting Atago's heal). Her armour only holds up only against almost straight frontal cruiser fire, everything else is bound to inflict significant damage. Her maneuverability isn't all that great either IMO, which makes dodging incoming fire a bit more tricky.

 

I was primary talked about historical facts. Atago is superior to Mogami thanks to heal but Mogami is most manuvreable of IJN cruisers from tier 7 to 10 and has best turret traverse! 155mm guns with BFT and AFT was ridiculous. The ship was intended to carry 203mm guns from beginning! If you compare it to other tier 8 cruisers is still relevant. Try New Orleans. Mogami is much better in my opinion.

[byronicasian]

 

Well, the supposed reasoning behind the 155mm setup of the Mogami being worse than VMF 6" cruisers in general is that Mogami was not intended to be a CL, she was built as such to hvae a pseudo CL in the fleet since they were rearmed with 8" guns shortly before the war, etc.

In reality wether they were intended or not, the 155mm triple mounts could train at a rate of 6°/sec, and had a maximum rate of fire of 6/min due to the powder hoists not being able to supply any more (when pusghed to their limit that is...), so what we have now is a nerfed-to-the-ground version of the triple 155 mount. EM used to bring the rotation in line with historical stats though, so that's a bit problematic.

 

Never understood why they didn't just bring down the RoF to 5RPM (and say its b/c of the historical powderhoist bottleneck) and keep the enjoyable CL train rate. Brings the DPM down while giving a viable CL option.

 

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNJAP_61-60_3ns.htm

 

 

[piritskenyer]

 

Except that we are now in the starting point. Just why we are even talking about stock ships being better than maxed? That was never possible in any WG game and that mogami WAS better on stock has been only due to skill that wasn't very thoughtfully implemented in the first place. Skill was changed and stock Mogami suck just as every other stock ship. Not to mention that 155 on mogami was temporary solution, they were planned from the start to replace them if Washington Treaty would be voided.

 

Or maybe, i love the look of stock Myogi, Kongo, Fuso. Can we buff them to be better or at least equal to maxed?

 

Yes, she WAS better stock than maxed, but I think we could have done with her not being nerfed to the ground but instead been levelled between the two setups. You need to grind the xp anyway, and most players will buy the hulls so why not? If we are completely honest, researching the 8" guns makes no sense, since those are pretty much the same guns that can be found on the Aoba and the Myoko, and then on the Ibuki. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing for them to be better stock, I'm arguing for them to be interchangeable, because there aren't many ships in game that have flexibility on the level the Mogami had. 

 

Also, not every stock ship sucks, just because they don't have their peak potential unlocked. 

 

 

Never understood why they didn't just bring down the RoF to 5RPM (and say its b/c of the historical powderhoist bottleneck) and keep the enjoyable CL train rate. Brings the DPM down while giving a viable CL option.

 

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNJAP_61-60_3ns.htm

 

Yeah, I think that would also have been viable. After all the major complaint was that they were firehoses beyond reason.

 

 

I was primary talked about historical facts. Atago is superior to Mogami thanks to heal but Mogami is most manuvreable of IJN cruisers from tier 7 to 10 and has best turret traverse! 155mm guns with BFT and AFT was ridiculous. The ship was intended to carry 203mm guns from beginning! If you compare it to other tier 8 cruisers is still relevant. Try New Orleans. Mogami is much better in my opinion.

 

While they certainly were intended, they were not completed as CA's, and they certainly weren't terrible CL's. 

I agree that with BFT and AFT she was more than a pain in the ar$e, however, removing BFT and AFT from the calibre would, IMO, have been largely enough, it's really the EM that made her 155 setup stink (and I'll keep saying this, if we're going to use historicity as an argument: the 155 turrets now turn way slower than they ever did in real life). She already has the shortest max range of any of the T8 CA's.

 

[KaraMon]

Imho not worth sticking to Mogami. Yes you can make it working, but still ship is inferrior to Chapayew that has better guns, better range and radar