Weak penetration on german cruisers' AP

[viceadmiral123]

Hello fellow captains

 

I've been having a great time playing the german cruiser line, especially the York, which is an HE beast.

 

Then came Hipper, with AP shells that I find sub-par, and weaker HE ammo. What is up with that?

 

I can pen most ships at long range with plunging shots, but when it comes to close range - it seems those 5900 damage AP shells don't do so well. Most high-tier cruisers I can't citadel from close range and flat broadside shots. Most citadels come from pening deck armor at long range. Carriers bounce plunging AP shells, and often bounce waterline shots. Don't get me wrong - I still get decent damage salvos, but not what I feel should be when shooting at the flat side of a cruiser at 4km.

 

I have the following issue - since the t8, t9 and t10 german cruiser share the same AP ammo type, does this mean that HIndenburg will have the exact same issues, or is there a behind the scenes bonus to penetration for Roon and Hindy? If it is the same ammo type, I think I will be a rather happy player with my York.

[xXx_Blogis_xXx]

I dont have any problems on my Hidenburg , AP works fine , but HE now even better

[ghostbuster_]

Hello fellow captains

 

I've been having a great time playing the german cruiser line, especially the York, which is an HE beast.

 

Then came Hipper, with AP shells that I find sub-par, and weaker HE ammo. What is up with that?

 

I can pen most ships at long range with plunging shots, but when it comes to close range - it seems those 5900 damage AP shells don't do so well. Most high-tier cruisers I can't citadel from close range and flat broadside shots. Most citadels come from pening deck armor at long range. Carriers bounce plunging AP shells, and often bounce waterline shots. Don't get me wrong - I still get decent damage salvos, but not what I feel should be when shooting at the flat side of a cruiser at 4km.

 

I have the following issue - since the t8, t9 and t10 german cruiser share the same AP ammo type, does this mean that HIndenburg will have the exact same issues, or is there a behind the scenes bonus to penetration for Roon and Hindy? If it is the same ammo type, I think I will be a rather happy player with my York.

I didnt notice a problem like that with my roon but i will try it today again and let you know.

[von_chom]

dont aim exactly at waterline, its messed up, the "auto-correction" is somehow broken, aim a bit above waterline and it should be fine

 

The AP is same for 8/9/10, just the number of guns differs

[viceadmiral123]

 

The AP is same for 8/9/10, just the number of guns differs

 

I would be very disappointed if the penetration values are the same for t10 as well.

[von_chom]

 

I would be very disappointed if the penetration values are the same for t10 as well.

 

dont be and play few more games 

[Phlogistoned]

I recently unlocked the Hipper and also find the AP somewhat lacklustre against other cruisers, but it absolutely wrecks BBs.

 

I wonder if armor has been nerfed across the board, since I get a lot of overpens in BB vs BB too.

[lafeel]

Only at the Köningsberg, but I certainly have no issues penning with my ap shells.

[waxx25]

I am only at yorck but when i sail my des moines or zao i know better than to broadside against a hipper, a couple of 20k+ salvos from its AP taught me that.

[Kurbain]

Yeah, the German cruiser AP is rather disappointing considering they are more reliant on AP than any other nation.

At T8 and T9, the penetration power is relatively good compared to other nations, but they are led down by their mediocre ricochet angles and bad angle normalization.
At T10, the penetration power is the worst since the other nations get a nice boost but the Hindenburg doesn't. It uses exactly the same turrets and shells as the Hipper/Roon.

 

 

	Velocity	Mass	Krupp	Ricochet	Normalization
Hipper/Roon/Hindenburg	925	122	2409	60°	5°
Zao	920	155	2468	60°	8,1°
Baltimore/Des Moines	762	152	2919	67,5°	5,7°
Moskva	985	176	2590	60°	5°

As you can see the Hindenburg got the worst mass and Krupp and nothing to make up for it except speed.
IJN have great angle normalization and solid all-around stats, US have great Krupp and ricochet angles and the Moskva got Stalinium-firing railguns.

[viceadmiral123]

Yeah, the German cruiser AP is rather disappointing considering they are more reliant on AP than any other nation.

 

At T8 and T9, the penetration power is relatively good compared to other nations, but they are led down by their mediocre ricochet angles and bad angle normalization.

At T10, the penetration power is the worst since the other nations get a nice boost but the Hindenburg doesn't. It uses exactly the same turrets and shells as the Hipper/Roon.

 

 

 

	Velocity	Mass	Krupp	Ricochet	Normalization
Hipper/Roon/Hindenburg	925	122	2409	60°	5°
Zao	920	155	2468	60°	8,1°
Baltimore/Des Moines	762	152	2919	67,5°	5,7°
Moskva	985	176	2590	60°	5°

As you can see the Hindenburg got the worst mass and Krupp and nothing to make up for it except speed.

IJN have great angle normalization and solid all-around stats, US have great Krupp and ricochet angles and the Moskva got Stalinium-firing railguns.

 

This.

What is the point of having the worst AP pen values, and the worst HE.

 

[ghostbuster_]

 

This.

What is the point of having the worst AP pen values, and the worst HE.

 

 

just had a game with roon and seems like there is no problem.

[RichardNixon]

 

I can pen most ships at long range with plunging shots, but when it comes to close range - it seems those 5900 damage AP shells don't do so well. Most high-tier cruisers I can't citadel from close range and flat broadside shots. Most citadels come from pening deck armor at long range. Carriers bounce plunging AP shells, and often bounce waterline shots. Don't get me wrong - I still get decent damage salvos, but not what I feel should be when shooting at the flat side of a cruiser at 4km.

 

If you're not getting citadels on broadside cruisers at 4km, that's overpenetration not underpenetration. Zao and Moskva shells are even worse for that. The US high-tier stuff works a bit better because it's low-velocity.

 

Workaround: Let cruisers angle a bit before shooting them at close range. 30-45 degrees is good.

[Myrmix]

AP of Hipper, Roon and Hindi is an all-or-nothing type of shells. When you can shoot broadsites you can even get nice damage-rolls on battleship-structure and 2-5 citadel per salvo on cruisers. When they are angled (often even a tiny bit), you get ~500-1000 damage or nothing.

Thank god they buffed the bad HE now to average, so you are not completely useless against angled targets anymore.

[viceadmiral123]

 

 

If you're not getting citadels on broadside cruisers at 4km, that's overpenetration not underpenetration. Zao and Moskva shells are even worse for that. The US high-tier stuff works a bit better because it's low-velocity.

 

Workaround: Let cruisers angle a bit before shooting them at close range. 30-45 degrees is good.

Not quite correct. t9-t10 cruiser have decent armor, decent enough to deflect shots from the citadel. There is a margin where the german cruisers will not penetrate the citadel, just get a regular pen for 33% of the AP damage, but other cruisers will manage to get 100% of the damage with their AP shells. I really disliked this mechanic when I got the Hipper, since a lot of broadside shots couldn't get a citadel ribbon.

[OldschoolGaming_YouTube]

Hello fellow captains

 

I've been having a great time playing the german cruiser line, especially the York, which is an HE beast.

 

Then came Hipper, with AP shells that I find sub-par, and weaker HE ammo. What is up with that?

 

I can pen most ships at long range with plunging shots, but when it comes to close range - it seems those 5900 damage AP shells don't do so well. Most high-tier cruisers I can't citadel from close range and flat broadside shots. Most citadels come from pening deck armor at long range. Carriers bounce plunging AP shells, and often bounce waterline shots. Don't get me wrong - I still get decent damage salvos, but not what I feel should be when shooting at the flat side of a cruiser at 4km.

 

I have the following issue - since the t8, t9 and t10 german cruiser share the same AP ammo type, does this mean that HIndenburg will have the exact same issues, or is there a behind the scenes bonus to penetration for Roon and Hindy? If it is the same ammo type, I think I will be a rather happy player with my York.

The Hipper is a strange ship. Looks good on paper but performs quite unreliable. The Roon and the Hindenburg will be 200% better tho. I free XPed half my Hipper because of this.

[RichardNixon]

Not quite correct. t9-t10 cruiser have decent armor, decent enough to deflect shots from the citadel. There is a margin where the german cruisers will not penetrate the citadel, just get a regular pen for 33% of the AP damage, but other cruisers will manage to get 100% of the damage with their AP shells. I really disliked this mechanic when I got the Hipper, since a lot of broadside shots couldn't get a citadel ribbon.

 

Well, against citadel roofs the inferior normalization kicks in. At close range that's only an issue when shooting at other German cruisers, because they have the WW1 armour layout. The Zao has some internal roof angle but it's so high that everything bounces at close range, and the other cruisers all have flat citadel roofs, as far as I know.

 

At longer ranges the normalization and ricochet angles are important against any cruiser.

[Namolis]

Yeah, the German cruiser AP is rather disappointing considering they are more reliant on AP than any other nation.

 

At T8 and T9, the penetration power is relatively good compared to other nations, but they are led down by their mediocre ricochet angles and bad angle normalization.

At T10, the penetration power is the worst since the other nations get a nice boost but the Hindenburg doesn't. It uses exactly the same turrets and shells as the Hipper/Roon.

 

 

 

	Velocity	Mass	Krupp	Ricochet	Normalization
Hipper/Roon/Hindenburg	925	122	2409	60°	5°
Zao	920	155	2468	60°	8,1°
Baltimore/Des Moines	762	152	2919	67,5°	5,7°
Moskva	985	176	2590	60°	5°

As you can see the Hindenburg got the worst mass and Krupp and nothing to make up for it except speed.

IJN have great angle normalization and solid all-around stats, US have great Krupp and ricochet angles and the Moskva got Stalinium-firing railguns.

 

What is applied first; ricochet or normalization? And isn't there a 15 degree zone where it will essentially be RNG to see if it ricochets or not?

[RichardNixon]

What is applied first; ricochet or normalization? And isn't there a 15 degree zone where it will essentially be RNG to see if it ricochets or not?

 

I haven't tested the first point (and I can't think of a good test), but the semi-official damage mechanics document implies ricochet before normalization. Second is true, although the USN 203mm shells have a might-ricochet zone of 60 to 67.5 degrees, so it's not always 15 degrees. Everything else is 45 to 60 degrees. Shots in this range do appear to have an RNG check.

 

One oddity I found in testing is that overmatch doesn't appear to apply to internal armour, so very thin internal armour layers can ricochet BB shells. It's possible that normalization doesn't apply either.

 

[Domin1c]

 

just had a game with roon and seems like there is no problem.

 

Alright guys, close it down, we have anecdotal evidence from some chucklehead based on one game, there's apparently no problem, time to wrap it up boys.

[ghostbuster_]

 

Alright guys, close it down, we have anecdotal evidence from some chucklehead based on one game, there's apparently no problem, time to wrap it up boys.

 

over 120 battles with hipper and roon. after i saw this thread i wondered if they nerfed it or not. and i saw no difference in that one battle i did yesterday, i meant that you clever d*ck.

[viceadmiral123]

Kurbain closed the topic with the raw data. Nothing more to see here

 

[TheBigLanowski]

Just tested the Hipper today since she got buffed again a little bit. Found out that is very very hard to citadel other cruisers from point blank range... the shell dispersion is really wired, miss the ship even at 2km distance (did some testing in the training room). Atago is a little bit better, but same problems at very close range. shells hitting the water often disappear even though they should hit the target under water. Have the feeling something is wrong with AP in general and German cruisers in particular. I may try to do some testing and make a video if I have enough time for it.

 

Edit: The Hindenburg don't have such problems. It's hard to hit the citadel on Japanese cruisers and the New Orleans at close range but it's okay. All the other cruisers are dead in 2 or 3 salvoes if showing broadside. Don't know why but seems that her triple turrets have a way better shell grouping than A. Hippers two. But the AP penetration is still wired... Montana only one citadel with luck, often did 0 dmg while shooting at her flat broadside. Very hard to penetrate, better aim for the superstructure. Yamato on the other hand is not that hard to citadel. What remains is the strange feeling that something isn't right here. Ah and the other ships can citadel Montana, only HB can't (only if you get very very lucky)

[_Teob_]

I do feel like the penetration should be improved slightly. But if they overdo it, KM CAs will be shot-gunning everything 

 

[Carnivore81]

Just tested the Hipper today since she got buffed again a little bit. Found out that is very very hard to citadel other cruisers from point blank range... the shell dispersion is really wired, miss the ship even at 2km distance (did some testing in the training room). Atago is a little bit better, but same problems at very close range. shells hitting the water often disappear even though they should hit the target under water. Have the feeling something is wrong with AP in general and German cruisers in particular. I may try to do some testing and make a video if I have enough time for it.

 

Edit: The Hindenburg don't have such problems. It's hard to hit the citadel on Japanese cruisers and the New Orleans at close range but it's okay. All the other cruisers are dead in 2 or 3 salvoes if showing broadside. Don't know why but seems that her triple turrets have a way better shell grouping than A. Hippers two. But the AP penetration is still wired... Montana only one citadel with luck, often did 0 dmg while shooting at her flat broadside. Very hard to penetrate, better aim for the superstructure. Yamato on the other hand is not that hard to citadel. What remains is the strange feeling that something isn't right here. Ah and the other ships can citadel Montana, only HB can't (only if you get very very lucky)

Thats quite some time that way. But I couldn't Citadell Yamato over 1 km ?But Buff AP  wont help against CA. You have the Moskva Problem overpen CA and Citadell Iowa on 10 km