more high tier japanese destroyer changes

[N00b32]

 

Am I wrong? What are your thoughts? 

 

Sry, can't think. Must grind my BBs before everything explodes. ^^ ;)

[aboomination]

NVM - deleting CV and forcing DD into closer ranges will work as well ;)

[Doerte]

Rock, paper, scissors...let's think about it a bit

 

(1) Make US ships have exceptional AA again, meaning:

(2) Nerf all other nation's AA >> USN cruisers would have something unique going for them again (even the Atlanta) but they'd still have a "bad" effective firing range and no torps so there'd be no flood of USN CA. CV will be more popular, Montana would also profit.

(3) Give IJN DD the ability to stealth torp from reasonable distances (15 km) while buffing their torp detection range a bit >> balanced by CV aircraft  who are spotting dd and torps

(4) Nerf CV torp dmg to punish lone players a bit less and make CV yolo runs against strong AA less likely to be successful.

I don't doubt the devs are honestly trying to balance out the game. But those recent and at times drastic changes did not really change one overall flaw I still see as a big problem in WoWS:

The game lacks teamplay, because it lacks incentives to do so. (Would e.g. give Air Supremacy setup a viable role as a scout, instead of being frowned upon, because they are just considered to kill other people's fun)

 

Instead of constant changes to basic game mechanics, we just need fundamental gameplay mechanics, that reward supporting team-mates, scouting, fleet cohesion and somewhat tactical maneuvers in the same manner as pure marksmanship is rewarded right now. 

Flat out nerfing a whole line of ships is just antagonizing a part of the community. Not the most elegant way to balance, I feel.

[N00b32]

I do believe, instead of constant changes to basic game mechanics, we just need fundamental gameplay mechanics, that reward supporting team-mates, scouting, fleet cohesion and somewhat tactical maneuvers in the same manner as pure marksmanship is rewarded right now. 

 

You mean like carriers and the teamwork they forced upon us ? Been there, done that. Wargaming customers now demand "delete torpedo soup". 

[Ew_]

NVM - deleting CV and forcing DD into closer ranges will work as well ;)

 

The problem with the rock paper scissor deal is that in this case, rock beats paper, scissor beats paper, but also, diffrent colored paper beats paper. And old crumpled paper beats paper.

 

Unless the paper gets lucky, blows in the right direction and catches the rock, scissors and papers off guard. Or scissor is busy beating paper and you can interfere with the battle and pick off the enemy paper whilst they are fighting others.

 

This post is so confusing i cant even keep up, but  yeah DDs has the most "arch enemies" of all the classes, but the IJN also has other DDs as arch enemies.

[SV_Kompresor]

 

The problem with the rock paper scissor deal is that in this case, rock beats paper, scissor beats paper, but also, diffrent colored paper beats paper. And old crumpled paper beats paper.

 

Unless the paper gets lucky, blows in the right direction and catches the rock, scissors and papers off guard. Or rock is busy beating scissors and you can interfere with the battle and pick your enemy off whilst they are fighting others.

 

That was a rocky ride

[Ew_]

I fell off my own ride, i love the F3 torps yeah, they fit my shimakaze playstyle well.

 

But dont expect me to be an asset to the team anymore, i am not the person who decides my battle performance, the diceroll in enemy movements, allies response to it, and my assumptions of where people will go from the start decides my usefulness in the battle. If im wrong? Well i can only run for half the battle or ride the storm and hope for luck.

 

So either you perform great or not at all. There is no average, there are just the two extremes.

[_Teob_]

Why are people saying the Shima is slower than the Gearing?

 

Unless I am missing something, the Shima's max speed is 39kn to the Gearing's 36kn.

 

Like Kurbain said, the problem with the Shima was two-fold:

1) Lots of them around which meant constant torpedo walls. That was a major negative aspect of high tier gameplay. Nobody wants to push into a 15+ torp wall that is very hard to dodge (potentially)

2) High Alpha potential. Basically if you eat a Shima torp in a dd, you are dead and in a CA your game is sort of ruined and the Shima can fire salvoes of 15.

 

I am genuinely interested in balancing the Shimas. I don't want any ship to be nerfed or buffed out of the game. I mean for most of the game's existence the tier 10 triple threat has been Shimas, Zaos and Yamatos. I guess that because the Shima was (is?) the most popular (even I have one) of the 3 and had the biggest impact on the game it just got a lot more attention.

 

I guess the 12km torps are still viable, right? 

 

[aboomination]

The problem with the rock paper scissor deal is that in this case, rock beats paper, scissor beats paper, but also, diffrent colored paper beats paper. And old crumpled paper beats paper.

 

 

Fascinating how DD hate CV yet they suffer a lot because of their absence 

 

 

[Hogwild_Gankhammer]

 

So i get it now, WG have been very biased towards USN DD's for a reason. They want IJN DD captains to start leveling up another DD line, USN, Russian, German. They keep nerfing the hell out of IJN DD's to the point of destruction, the DD's will be unplayable from T8 with the shambolic changes. Yet no nerf to the USN DD line, the Benson alone has been way OP for a long, time yet no nerf, Gearing and Fletcher are way superior to Kagero and Shima, yet WG they see the need to nerf IJN DD's again.

 

No, very biased towards gunboats.  And which other nation favours gunboats in it's 'fleet'....Yep.  You guessed it.  The Russians.  Says it all really.

[Black0rchid]

Oh well, hopefully they will come to their senses and actually look to balance the game and fix the match maker.

 

Since the last patch the Fubuki became the top of the line for the IJN DD' tree, fubuki was still the only DD that could rely on torps only to get the kill without having to use it's guns. I have over 200 games played on fubuki and since the beginning I never used the full range of the torps, I rather use the torp acceleration skill to secure my hits. Yesterday i decided to give the 8km torps a try. As expected they are a load of crap, not only are they spoted to soon but also they place you in a position that you will be easily detected. The cruisers can easily avoid them (yesterday I launched at 5.8 km towards an IJN CA that just turned to dodge them-----I wasn t detected when I launched them). Even an Amagi managed to dodge them like a champ...... So that brings me to the question, what is the point of all this re balancing? The shimakaze was never the ubber ship everyone talked about, in fact of the games I played it sucessfully I got my kills more due to the lack of skill of the opposing players than actually luck. By nerfing a ship that was goodish (not even good) they created a failship... They managed to pull the shima out of tier X... now what?

 

If instead they had fixed the matchmaking system across all tiers instead of trying to fix what wasn t broken, but hey I guess that is a lota work.....

 

The only viable option to keep the shimakaze viable is to give it 18 km torps that would go down to 12km with torp acc skill and at least 72kn....that would be the way to make it interesting again. As for the Gearing and the kabharosky they need to maintain them as they are, they are good ships, however they need to start doing their jobs properly and instead of going after BB and Cruisers they need to hunt down the IJN DD's wich in most cases is not what currently happens and that was part of the problem in the first place.

[Spellfire40]

 

Fubuki does not have the F3 torpedoes but only the Type 93 Mod. 2 as top torpedoes. When I played her she only had the slow [edited]crap Type 90 torpedoes so while the gap got definitely smaller here with the 0.5.5. patch it still exists in form of the F3 torps. Reload time is a decent 80 seconds skilled and they deal enough damage to take out any ship in the game in one go. Also the chance to hit with multiple torps is higher than with the Type 93 torpedoes as it is a lot harder to dodge them.

I am also using the Torpedo Tube Mod.3 module together with the Torpedo Tube Mod.1 and don't have any problems with that.

In my 164 matches with Kagerou I had maybe 2 or 3 where I lost a torpedo launcher permanently which I would not consider to be all that bad.

It's true that her AA is crap and worse than Fubuki's but she has a better rudder shift time instead which already saved me a lot of times.

I don't know how the current Fubuki plays but Kagerou is so much better than the pre 0.5.5 Fubuki I know (which is also visible in my stats with them) and as already said in my other post I feel really comfortable playing her with the F3 torpedoes.

 

Karago main Upgrades were trading the slow 15km torps vs fast 20km torps. that was worth some nerfs in other Areas. Granted i did lanch from around 7km with either one but with 8km torps you cant hit anything that is on a away Course and the 10 km torps lose so much Speed that the 2 km more range dont means anything either. (one of the reasons why Hatsu is considered the worst IJN DD, ist slow reload and have neither the Speed nor the range either were Fubuki plus had the range). That not saying Kagaro is a bad ship. But 15% more reload Speed is no trade for more flexible lanchers (2 vs 3) 1 Torp more and better soft stats were it conts. With 8km torps it is a worse ship than Fubuki.

 

 

And deleting CV is not an Option usless you want that  crap bow 1st driving backward excuse of BB tactics that some BBs employ now. They wouldt do that with more Midways/Hak. in play

[Takeda92]

 

Because Wargaming balances based on statistics, particularly the amount how much the ship is played. And because there are so many more IJN DD players they see it as a "problem", whereas US destroyer player numbers are low.

The reason why it's okay for there to be so few CV players is because their target for CV players is very low in the first place. That's also why they keep [edited]carriers over for a long time now.

 

Personally, I think IJN destroyers were already pretty poor at the high tiers. Now they'll be even worse, so this increases wins through matchmaking - get too many IJN DDs you lose. Fletcher already is the best torpedo destroyer and Gearing is probably #2. This affirms their status even more, because they still have the range and their torpedoes have much much less detectability - even with the IJN torpedoes' enhanced speed you have much less time to react to US torpedoes than IJN ones.

 

19k games for Fletcher against 22k games for Kagero in the last week is hardly USN numbers are low.

[lankylad11_lankylad]

 

the reason is rather that if I want to play a gunboat id rather play a CA. RU DDs are CL with low HP minus their citadel area.

 

RU DDs are like cruisers, correct.  however unlike the RU cruisers, you do not see them being deleted in one shot by BBs at 18/19km for showing half a broadside to something.  they are also much smaller and faster and more maneuvrable so can avoid much more gun fire.  the AP is borderline overpowered in them.  several RU DD can also stealth torp in a way no cruiser can

[lankylad11_lankylad]

as for torp boat DDs, you are unlikely to get hits outside 10km anyway, so i wouldnt use 20km torps in the shima.  granted gearing has more flexibility and they are harder to run away from because they are harder to detect and they have more range but shimas do way more damage and there are more of them in the water at once, and/or shima can hold a set back in reserve, still launch 10 and use the other 5 later.  Gearing is also very very unagile and slow.  the real unbalanced tier is 9.  Fletcher rules supreme.  If they ever remove the torpedo acceleration skill and do not buff gearing as a result, i will be selling it and going back to fletcher, because at that point fletcher is the better torpedo platform.  everyone says oh the US are good gun boats, they are to an extent but the shell arc is absolutely ridiculous so you cant hit anything outside 7km.

[Mayv]

If I wanted to play with 8km torpedoes, I would play the Udaloi.

 

 

[Elenortirion]

guys guys random note:

 

on fubuki "type90 mod1" torpedoes are... stock 10km

 

I still wonder how does removing stock 10km torpes with leaving type 90 mod 2 15km torps in place is considered "reducing general range".....

 

or maybe its just the author of those "patchnotes" having no real clue about what he/she is writing about

[anonym_EFwxJOPWzlER]

 

Spartan1963 before commenting on other peoples stats. Why not unhide your own?

 

The point i made is a fair point, if i hide my stats that's my choice, if you show then then that's a choice too.

It's not for you to decide whether i show my stats or not

[G01ngToxicCommand0]

 

That's a huge number of games for a DD that has only been in the game a fraction of the time the other two has.

 

Not really, if the players have an average of 10 games played in the Udaloi it is only a couble of hundred players that are using it - hardly an accurate representation of the average player base.

[OlFson]

 

The point i made is a fair point, if i hide my stats that's my choice, if you show then then that's a choice too.

It's not for you to decide whether i show my stats or not

 

No it is not. And being a fair point or not ppl dont necessarily show them to discuss them with erverybody and their relatives. Maybe its  because they want to keep track of their own progress.

And with you not showing yours, you should refrain from commenting on theirs.

[anonym_EFwxJOPWzlER]

 

No it is not. And being a fair point or not ppl dont necessarily show them to discuss them with erverybody and their relatives. Maybe its  because they want to keep track of their own progress.

And with you not showing yours, you should refrain from commenting on theirs.

 

When someone claims they are an expert with a particular ship then they are putting the spotlight on themselves with their own comments, maybe you should refrain from being a fool, but that may be a big ask

[aboomination]

When someone claims they are an expert

 

Nobody claimed to be an expert and you should stop making a fool out of yourself and try to stay on topic. The moment you ran out of arguments you were pulling up stats.

[GulvkluderGuld]

 

So i get it now, WG have been very biased towards USN DD's for a reason. They want IJN DD captains to start leveling up another DD line, USN, Russian, German. They keep nerfing the hell out of IJN DD's to the point of destruction, the DD's will be unplayable from T8 with the shambolic changes. Yet no nerf to the USN DD line, the Benson alone has been way OP for a long, time yet no nerf, Gearing and Fletcher are way superior to Kagero and Shima, yet WG they see the need to nerf IJN DD's again.

 

You might want to take a look in the mirror, because that is flat out right but for the wrong reasons. 

You see, I wouldn't call it bias, I would call this justice. 

 

Both low and mid-tier IJN dds were very overpowered and superior to US dds at game lauch, so everybody played them.

It's only fair US gets to be the top dog at some tiers, and they were not originally.

The only balanced/usn favored tiers used to be tier 9+10, every other tier favored IJN torpedoboats.

 

Then came all the minekaze nerfs and mid-tier USN buffs to level the playing field.

Now the USN captains who perservered gets rewarded.

 

edit: inserted correct quote

[T3ddyBear]

Yet another "care bear" moment from the WG "balancing department"....

 

Even now we have tier10 players that cannot get their heads around the WASD keys, I simply do not understand why WG is catering to players who want to either stay still and use a stationary artillery position or those that want to sail in a straight line at constant speed for several minutes.

 

It's always the DD's fault, I torped a Montana in my Kagero lats, night, max range (12km) he never turned or slowed down once, I failed to sink him but the second launch got him, still sailing on the same course at constant speed them bitching about torps......

 

With radar, spotter planes etc, playing an IJN DD will be pointless, the CA will get detected, pop radar, light you up and poof you are dead, where is the risk and reward in having to suicide charge to get a decent shot now?

 

WG, simply do not have a clue what they are doing, they drove CV's into the floor because idiot BB captains complained, now it's the IJN DD's turn, next the USN DD's, I guess at some point they will remove torps from ALL cruisers, because that's the next thing the BB captains will complain about.

 

If people refuse to play as a team then the game should punish them, NOT make it easier to go off alone, a solo ship was dead in the war, that's why they had FLEETS!

 

GG WG, yet another care bear change to the game, let's have more clueless tier8/9/10 captains in BB's who can just press W 4 times then just use the mouse button to fire... you have to laugh otherwise you would cry at the ineptitude.

 

Harrier.

[anonym_EFwxJOPWzlER]

 

Nobody claimed to be an expert and you should stop making a fool out of yourself and try to stay on topic. The moment you ran out of arguments you were pulling up stats.

 

None other than yourself