AA & CV's..This has gotta stop WG

[Syrchalis]

Don`t be silly. You just know that 90% of CV skippers will strike wherever it`s easier and just do their thing. And for a class that is mainly playing alone whoring damage, there is an excessive talk about "teamwork". 

 

Also, teamwork does exist, or they attempt to force it, by screening for DDs, protecting BBs, protecting CAs with BBs, etc. No need to be dramatic about your poor planes. You know all too well that, past the first minutes, unless a CA is super glued to a BBs butt, all teamwork is focused around anything else but AA. Not like being an AA cruiser gives crap to even call it "teamwork". SO, this means you can`t strike whenever you want, wherever you want in the first minute - tough luck. Afterwards, well, avoid AA pockets and accept that you WILL NOT decide a game by yourself. No problem about it.

 

May be boring to scout only, shoot down planes and do the occasional drop, but hey - you either like the class and how it plays or you don`t, and played it only because it was perceived as "OP". You have to make up your mind, because, for a player that screams "utility", "scout" and "teamwork", you surely defend the wrong cause here. I am trying to make you a more teamwork oriented player and you just scream "but ma torpz".. tsk tsk.

 

CVs will and cannot support until support provides rewards.

 

Plane kill bounty is pathetic

 

Spotting gives zero

 

You can't cap as CV

 

Cap reset reward is rather pathetic, plus with 3-5min CD on attacks you suck at it as CV (upside is you have unlimited reach).

[robihr]

Don`t be silly. You just know that 90% of CV skippers will strike wherever it`s easier and just do their thing. And for a class that is mainly playing alone whoring damage, there is an excessive talk about "teamwork". 

 

Also, teamwork does exist, or they attempt to force it, by screening for DDs, protecting BBs, protecting CAs with BBs, etc. No need to be dramatic about your poor planes. You know all too well that, past the first minutes, unless a CA is super glued to a BBs butt, all teamwork is focused around anything else but AA. Not like being an AA cruiser gives crap to even call it "teamwork". SO, this means you can`t strike whenever you want, wherever you want in the first minute - tough luck. Afterwards, well, avoid AA pockets and accept that you WILL NOT decide a game by yourself. No problem about it.

 

May be boring to scout only, shoot down planes and do the occasional drop, but hey - you either like the class and how it plays or you don`t, and played it only because it was perceived as "OP". You have to make up your mind, because, for a player that screams "utility", "scout" and "teamwork", you surely defend the wrong cause here. I am trying to make you a more teamwork oriented player and you just scream "but ma torpz".. tsk tsk.

 

well you found 2 problems already in this system. no rewards for scouting, and really small rewards for defending ships with AA

[ghostbuster_]

 

CVs will and cannot support until support provides rewards.

 

Plane kill bounty is pathetic

 

Spotting gives zero

 

You can't cap as CV

 

Cap reset reward is rather pathetic, plus with 3-5min CD on attacks you suck at it as CV (upside is you have unlimited reach).

Not only for cvs but un general, spotting is something necessary to win, so there is no need for extra reward for spotting. If you want to win, you should spot. Doesnt matter with dd or cv.

[robihr]

Not only for cvs but un general, spotting is something necessary to win, so there is no need for extra reward for spotting. If you want to win, you should spot. Doesnt matter with dd or cv.

 

but usually for cv it is choice between scouting and dealing damage. i will scout dd if there is immediate danger to ally fleet, or if our fleet can actually kill that dd in reasonable amount of time. otherwise i will concentrate on dealing damage...

[Xerkics]

 

You make it sound like USN BBs sacrifice something worthwhile for AA, but they don't. A bit range on the secondaries and that's it. Even in the current meta where CVs don't exist most BBs are specced for AA, simply because it gives such a huge bonus when there actually is a CV and you don't have to sacrifice anything to get it. It's the same with cruisers always carrying AA consumable. The radar is just crap so sacrificing it doesn't hurt at all.

 

And USN cannot have "immunity to planes" as nation characteristic. If that's the case I want 200% increased dispersion for shells fired from BBs at my CV.

 

very funny, it is a very real choice , USN BBs have to use a range mod for their second slot all the way up to tier 8 and can't really afford to spec into AA as that would mean not being able to fire back. So yes they sacrifice something important for most of the tiers. Nm other battleships that can get dispersion module or secondary module instead because buff to already low AA will be minimal for ijn and AA tirpitz is waste of mod slot.. Don't make it sound like all BB are speced into AA because they won't and now even north cal will have to decide whether it wants better secondaries rather than aa since they made secondaries viable in patch. In fact I suspect that by buffing AA it will mean less BB will run AA mods . Why waste skills and slots when meeting cv is rare.

[Ictogan]

Don`t be silly. You just know that 90% of CV skippers will strike wherever it`s easier and just do their thing. And for a class that is mainly playing alone whoring damage, there is an excessive talk about "teamwork". 

 

Also, teamwork does exist, or they attempt to force it, by screening for DDs, protecting BBs, protecting CAs with BBs, etc. No need to be dramatic about your poor planes. You know all too well that, past the first minutes, unless a CA is super glued to a BBs butt, all teamwork is focused around anything else but AA. Not like being an AA cruiser gives crap to even call it "teamwork". SO, this means you can`t strike whenever you want, wherever you want in the first minute - tough luck. Afterwards, well, avoid AA pockets and accept that you WILL NOT decide a game by yourself. No problem about it.

 

May be boring to scout only, shoot down planes and do the occasional drop, but hey - you either like the class and how it plays or you don`t, and played it only because it was perceived as "OP". You have to make up your mind, because, for a player that screams "utility", "scout" and "teamwork", you surely defend the wrong cause here. I am trying to make you a more teamwork oriented player and you just scream "but ma torpz".. tsk tsk.

 

First of all I'd like to point out that I never even mentioned the word "utility" so I have my doubts whether you even read my posts.

 

And if you played CVs in team battles, you would know what they are in an environment with strong teamwork even without the buffed AA in 0.5.6. They can only do three things:

#1 scout and attack DDs

#2 prevent the enemy CV from doing #1

#3 punish ships who go off on their own

Although #3 only really happens when playing against bad teams or when a team has already lost most of its ships.

 

And attacking ships in random battles is also, surprise, teamwork. If for example the enemy is pushing into our cap on one side of the map and we don't have enough ships to properly defend our cap on that side, I can attack the pushing ships to make it easier to the defending forces and slow them down. But apparently that's just damage whoring and not doing teamwork.

[Sake78]

 

well you found 2 problems already in this system. no rewards for scouting, and really small rewards for defending ships with AA

 

Never said those 2 shouldn`t be rewarded. Also, never said CV`s should dissapear or not be rewarded for their actions.

 

What I AM saying, however, is they might be just a tad omnipotent, and they should have some possibilities taken away from them, or, at the very least, made nigh impossible to achieve anything outside their "role" - whichever that might be.

 

snip

 

About time I start explaining how cruisers have too short AA range to properly "teamwork" with BBs and still screen stuff and anti DD? 10 km should be enough, for those poor slow BBs that rely on cruiser support, what do you think? Because it surely escalated into "let`s find arguments about how UP CV already is", or just state the previous over and over again until people believe? We could also try a CV with concelment 18 - 20km, so you actually get shot directly, to make use of that HP pool of yours - you have enough speed to dodge and weave already.

[Xerkics]

Also it always somehow ends up bb players fault for not following cruisers well newsflash Bb can't effectively follow cruisers they can ask for escort but whether they get is another question since cruisers sail chaotically and tend to runaway when they get shot and BB tend to have to plan their course in advance because of turn time if they want to be effective.  Best bb can usually do for AA is stick together not follow cruisers who yolo all over the map.

[G01ngToxicCommand0]

What do carrier players want their carrier to be able to do, how to do it and what role do they want them to perform?

There must be some consensus among the veteran CV players what they think the carriers' role, strenghts and weaknesses should be and how the game aircraft carrier mechanics should be like in order to be fun and rewarding for all classes of ships?

[Xerkics]

 

AA is a thing that in the current meta only works with teamwork. They are making work without teamwork, but at the same time making the effectiveness of AA with teamwork completely over the top.

 

Now I think that lone US AA specced BBs should be able to defend themselves TO A CERTAIN POINT. But they shouldn't be immune to air attacks.

i can agree with that, but what is a certain point? When is AA too effective since ingame AA rating is not a good measure of actual AA effectiveness.

[Ictogan]

Also it always somehow ends up bb players fault for not following cruisers well newsflash Bb can't effectively follow cruisers they can ask for escort but whether they get is another question since cruisers sail chaotically and tend to runaway when they get shot and BB tend to have to plan their course in advance because of turn time if they want to be effective.  Best bb can usually do for AA is stick together not follow cruisers who yolo all over the map.

 

What about the other side of the coin? I recently was in a battle with 3 Des Moines in the enemy team in my Shokaku. All of the other non-DD ships always stayed in the AA range of the Des Moines. Guess how fun that game was for me.

 

If WG wants CVs to be pure scout ships and will balance them to be that, have fun seeing one CV every ~50 battles.

[Xerkics]

 

What about the other side of the coin? I recently was in a battle with 3 Des Moines in the enemy team in my Shokaku. All of the other non-DD ships always stayed in the AA range of the Des Moines. Guess how fun that game was for me.

 

If WG wants CVs to be pure scout ships and will balance them to be that, have fun seeing one CV every ~50 battles.

 

Maybe they dont want more CVs ? I remember hearing something along the lines that they were saying in one of the recent streams on ru that CV and Arty have a very specific player base that will play them anyway.

[Ictogan]

i can agree with that, but what is a certain point? When is AA too effective since ingame AA rating is not a good measure of actual AA effectiveness.

 

In that regard I have to agree with this post from Ishiro32:

 

I love quoting myself from over half year ago

Posted 16 November 2015 - 12:53 PM

 What he tried to say is that AAA is a mechanic that will always have net negative feeling regardless of it’s power. Why?
Super strong AAA = very bad and unfair feeling for CV player who simply has no way of going around it since it’s just flat RNG bubble without any openings or mechanics to play around. At the same time killing a lot planes does not generate a lot of feeling of greatness for the player on the defence since he pretty much did nothing. There was no clutch plays which usually generate most of the positive feedback. So huge minus and small plus
Super weak AAA = very bad and unfair feeling for a defending player who simply has no way of defending himself against competent CV. Planes are fast and if they have a lot of the time to setup attack it wil ALWAYS connect. At the same time since planes are never in any danger then carrier gameplay starts being very boring and repetitive. Other counter for drop is dodge and it did work more or less in the patch where BBs were turning like DDs (beta). With super weak AAA only DDs would be able to dodge.
Avg AAA = pretty much what we have now. Dominated by RNG and depending on the tier difference it can become either strong AAA or weak AAA option. Very unstable balance and something that in the end is net negative for the game.

 

 

AAA changed a bit since then, but the principle stayed the same.
There is no way to make AAA and CV interaction Fun for all. No matter the situation it will always be bad and the tier to tier progression just additionally mess whole thing up. 

 

I will also add this simple fact to my argument. Since AAA is not skill based and attacking is skillbased, you additionally will get issues with balance by skill of the player. If AAA is balanced around weaker players then top are overperforming no matter what defending player will do.
If AAA is balanced around middle then weaker players are on the bad position no matter how bad defending players is and top players are in a great spot no matter how good defending player is.
If AAA is balanced around top players, then weaker players are wasted no matter against how bad teams they are.

Flat number counterplay against skill is IMPOSSIBLE to balance. 

Earlier I mentioned that CVs and are more or less balanced in random. In Team Battles where anyone can pick most optimal ship and people play in a team as a team… Strike is the most pointless thing ever. It always was and you can not make it not so without throwing Random mode under a bus. 

 

So yeah, once again. I really stopped carrying about AAA changes, because no matter the number change, it will be bad. Thing about it, against it work 3 types of discrepancies:

• Tier to Tier
• CV skill level
•  Mode

You really can think you can find FIXED number that will take into account all that so it will be fair for everyone? 

 

 

 

In other words: unless there are some fundamental changes to how AA and/or CVs work, balancing it will always be a clusterfuck.

 

 

 

 

Maybe they dont want more CVs ? I remember hearing something along the lines that they were saying in one of the recent streams on ru that CV and Arty have a very specific player base that will play them anyway.

 

I know that I will stop playing CVs if they continue like this.

[Obsessive_Compulsive]

 

You mean like that Community Contributor who thinks carriers are sky cancer because they click every 30 seconds on the map ?

 

No idea what you mean. I simply observe that there are obvious balance issues with a certain playstyle

[robihr]

I know that I will stop playing CVs if they continue like this.

 

i stopped. just for GNB i bought ranger and actually had some fun in it. but going on lex or more is just asking for punishment...

[Syrchalis]

Not only for cvs but un general, spotting is something necessary to win, so there is no need for extra reward for spotting. If you want to win, you should spot. Doesnt matter with dd or cv.

 

I'll make this real simple for you guys who think spotting is a viable playstyle.

 

Winning = 1.5x XP

 

Spotting = 0XP

 

1.5*0=0

 

Math

 

But yeah, for people who dont play CV it's great. If you got the spotting CV you get 50% bonus XP, just the CV who got you that win gets nothing. I would like that when I'm in my BB.

[Sake78]

 

I'll make this real simple for you guys who think spotting is a viable playstyle.

 

Winning = 1.5x XP

 

Spotting = 0XP

 

1.5*0=0

 

Math

 

But yeah, for people who dont play CV it's great. If you got the spotting CV you get 50% bonus XP, just the CV who got you that win gets nothing. I would like that when I'm in my BB.

 

Not only spotting. Why are you using word games now? You still have your strike planes and fighters. What he said is that you scout anyway if you want to win, as part of that much loved "teamwork".

[Syrchalis]

Yeah, but without individual rewards there is little reason to spot. Yes you MIGHT win because of that, but it won't give you anything on it's own. You will only spot if it is for free basically, if you don't have anything else to do and get not even the slightest disadvantage out of spotting.

 

And without individual rewards for spotting there is no way to push any role more towards it, without screwing that role over completely.

[Babykim]

 

There is a much worse CV nerf forthcoming, and nobody appears to notice. This:

 

Disabled the possibility of moving the discharge point for squadrons after the start of the attack

 

is the end of accurate torping and bombing. PERIOD.

 

The AA buff is nothing compared to this.

 

[Panocek]

There is a much worse CV nerf forthcoming, and nobody appears to notice. This:

 

Disabled the possibility of moving the discharge point for squadrons after the start of the attack

 

is the end of accurate torping and bombing. PERIOD.

 

The AA buff is nothing compared to this.

 

Well, once planes started their attack run (reticle turns yellow) you couldn't adjust it anyway

[robihr]

There is a much worse CV nerf forthcoming, and nobody appears to notice. This:

 

Disabled the possibility of moving the discharge point for squadrons after the start of the attack

 

is the end of accurate torping and bombing. PERIOD.

 

The AA buff is nothing compared to this.

 

well you couldnt move discharge point after start of attack anyways before the attack you could move it as much as you wanted to.

[Babykim]

Yes you could!!! This means that you can now set the attack template only once!! Otherwise this would be no change to status quo.

[Babykim]

 

before the attack you could move it as much as you wanted to.

 

..this will not be possible anymore. My reading of patch notes.

[Ictogan]

Yes you could!!! This means that you can set the attack template only once!! Otherwise this would be no change to status quo

 

Ugh, I somehow doubt that is what they mean because that would make the circle that shows when the squadron is committed to the attack and can't cancel it anymore useless.

[robihr]

 

Ugh, I somehow doubt that is what they mean because that would make the circle that shows when the squadron is committed to the attack and can't cancel it anymore useless.

 

well considering how nerfing of cv has started, wouldnt be suprised

 

 

..this will not be possible anymore. My reading of patch notes.

 

start of the attack is always when planes commit (aka yellow cone).