Cheating and Illegal Modifications

[mtm78]

Edited.
This post has been edited by the moderation team due to insult. 

 

 

[Quazie]

Alpha testers, as you seem to defend the hack/mod thing all the time.

 

Do you ever watch youtube?

There are videos on there showing these so called "Useless Hacks", don't know if they are real, but it does seem to show the game is not a secure as you think.

Go on do a search and view a few of them.

Showing incoming tracks, torp tracks, and moving aim points when a ship is turning.

I watched one where islands and smoke didn't seem to bother it.

 

Yes they may be banned, but are they still being used?

 

We never see any evidence either way.

Hack detection built in?

Where is the proof, where is the banned player list etc.

 

A lucky shot or torps into smoke is going to happen from time to time.

But when you are in Edinburgh and moving in the smoke and get hit 5 times in a row from a cruiser 13K away you have to wonder.

Longest radar USSR 11.7Km, longest Hydro 6Km no ships within 7km that have radar, not detected, destroyers all over the other side of map, no planes up..

No way could I have been spotted, and it never showed "Detected", 5 salvos in a row, nobody is that lucky or skillful.

 

I am not saying they are common, but things like this make me believe they are being used, unforntunately I do not record games.

[blademansw]

 

A lucky shot or torps into smoke is going to happen from time to time.

But when you are in Edinburgh and moving in the smoke and get hit 5 times in a row from a cruiser 13K away you have to wonder.

Longest radar USSR 11.7Km, longest Hydro 6Km no ships within 7km that have radar, not detected, destroyers all over the other side of map, no planes up..

No way could I have been spotted, and it never showed "Detected", 5 salvos in a row, nobody is that lucky or skillful.

 

I am not saying they are common, but things like this make me believe they are being used, unforntunately I do not record games.

 

Did you think to check and see if the cruiser 13km away had a spotter plane? That can be used to counter ships firing from smoke. Very easily.

 

[mtm78]

Showing incoming tracks, torp tracks, and moving aim points when a ship is turning.

 

Incoming shells... what client renders and what server actually calculates aren't 100% synced so even when someone extrapolates shell trajectory from the game's rendering engine it isn't reliable info.

 

Torp tracks, once torpedoes are spotted they keep being spotted and it's easy to draw a line across their path. It's not allowed but I don't find it that game breaking. 

 

Moving aim points -> the internal one which used WG's own code was removed and python access was closed. As with any game, it's always possible to intercept dirextx draw calls and thus get the ship models and calculate an aim point based on it. 

 

So yeah, it's not impossible there are still cheats out there. But WG is actively banning people why they catch using them, there been large ban rounds on RU cluster, or well there was info made public by RU cluster about how many accounts had been banned and I would hope this policy is the same on all regions. It's just that EU never makes those numbers public.

 

But when you are in Edinburgh and moving in the smoke and get hit 5 times in a row from a cruiser 13K away you have to wonder.

 

There are no cheats which can do what you describe. Visibility is handled server side, nothing is done client side. In smoke, they can not see you. What they CAN see if you shells exiting the barrels. It's not that hard to land shots in smoke. Even when you move in your smoke, especially now since more and more people actually shoot into smoke and have learned how to do that. Or even just shoot with the idea of hoping to hit...

 

We never see any evidence either way.

 

Hack detection built in?

Where is the proof, where is the banned player list etc.

 

The EU and RU client is the same, if they can ban people on RU cluster based on having detected usage off illegal mods they should be able to do the same on every region. But WG never makes public banlists available, certainly not in EU. 

 

[_Flyto_]

Alpha testers, as you seem to defend the hack/mod thing all the time.

 

Well, I'm not an alpha tester, and I'd be surprised if any alpha testers are defending the use of cheats (which is far from the same as "mods"), but... let's address the points.

I'm sorry for doing it this way, but I can't figure out how to split a quoted section into multiple smaller sections... perhaps somebody will enlighten me...

 

Do you ever watch youtube?

There are videos on there showing these so called "Useless Hacks", don't know if they are real, but it does seem to show the game is not a secure as you think.

Go on do a search and view a few of them.

Showing incoming tracks, torp tracks, and moving aim points when a ship is turning.

I watched one where islands and smoke didn't seem to bother it.

 

Incoming shell tracks: Yes, that's entirely feasible, and is honestly the only cheat I've heard about that sounds really useful. Torp tracks... eh, yes, but that's not hard to judge for yourself. Aim points are only useful against a ship that is sailing in a straight line (or turning with a constant speed and radius - the point is it only works so long as the enemy player doesn't press any keys). So you can shoot beginners more easily. It shouldn't happen, but honestly, if you can't already shoot straight-line people...

 

Islands and smoke... yes and no. If somebody is spotted behind an island, your game client knows where they are but you can't see then, so it's possible that a mod could make the island invisible. If nobody else is spotting the ship, your client can't see the ship so mods aren't gonna help. Ditto with smoke.

 

Yes they may be banned, but are they still being used?

 

Probably. *shrug* nothing I can do about it!

 

We never see any evidence either way.

 

You've just asserted that you've seen evidence. Make up your mind?

 

But when you are in Edinburgh and moving in the smoke and get hit 5 times in a row from a cruiser 13K away you have to wonder.

Longest radar USSR 11.7Km, longest Hydro 6Km no ships within 7km that have radar, not detected, destroyers all over the other side of map, no planes up..

No way could I have been spotted, and it never showed "Detected", 5 salvos in a row, nobody is that lucky or skillful.

 

Oh, is *this* where this is coming from.... an Edinburgh is large, and its smoke cloud is small. Every few seconds it fires lots of guns, showing roughly where it is at that moment. It takes some practice, but it's totally possible to hit. Easier with a spotter plane up. Doing it 5 times in a row would take some luck, but one person only has to get lucky once, out of hundreds of tries, and you're screaming "cheat", so...

 

 

[_DeathWing_]

I still remember the days during the testing with that aim-bot. Ahhh, good old days or are they? 

 

[RavenSCO]

someone said you cant tell what direction a ship is going when its pointing straight at you ... dont be rediculous of course you can most obvious look at the wake duhhh....

 

This mod is available to EVERYONE it does NOT assist you in aiming , there was a mention of people with crappy computers well lets be honest is it our fault they have crap machines, turn the settings down and it removes some of the eye candy and allows them to see things that we have hidden behind trees etc so thats that point nullified....

 

Scream Cheat whenever you die and i am sure it wont be long untill the wolf does eat you.....

[ThinderChief]

Well, this only reinforces my decision not to use any mods at all. But please, implement training rooms already. I'd really love to try what exactly would be the ideal way of behaving/aiming in the game.

 

Kudos, my decision as well although i have tried one for the "angles sights" i quickly decided that it was not worth it and a 41% hit ratio with my favourite DDs conforts me on my decision, question of practise.

[ThinderChief]

A lucky shot or torps into smoke is going to happen from time to time.

But when you are in Edinburgh and moving in the smoke and get hit 5 times in a row from a cruiser 13K away you have to wonder.

 

I didn't know there were toprs with a 13K range in the game but then again my highest tier with a DD is VIII so i got to check on this, after checking a gearing have 16.5km range torps for example which is phenomenal.

 

Do not take it personally, but as a DD player this is what i think:

1111

Camping in smoke bubbles with DDs possessing long range torps is nothing short of dumb, i spend my time killing guys doing just that, i also spend my time telling my DDs team mates "DONT camp in your smoke if you pop it", not only for this reason but because they can't spot anything in their cocoon, only to see them offering the first strike to the red team.

 

It's also the BEST way to counter smoke-loving Cruisers despite their radars or hydro, once you know their detection range you can use their last known position on the map for range and aiming, then safely can stay off it and torp them to obvlivion, i can send 3X3 10km ranged -17,233HP torps your way in no time, some DDs can send 12 of them in the same amount of time or almost with a fast reload consumable so tell me, why are you surprised of getting hit by torps when you're near stationary?

 

I'm not sure you were faced with a cheat although i believe some guys migh use them but i personally dont need to use any, there is nothing easier than to kill a camper in a smoke bubble, especially when he is firing which gives you a pretty good idea of where to aim your torps...

[mtm78]

I'm not sure you were faced with a cheat

 

Explain how you think a client side cheat can hack WG servers to get positional data for unspotted ships, I would be delighted to learn how the game mechanics work. 

[ThinderChief]

 

Explain how you think a client side cheat can hack WG servers to get positional data for unspotted ships, I would be delighted to learn how the game mechanics work. 

 

There is NO need for hacking at all, the same way that drivers works, before sending data to the server, a cheat CAN alterate them from within the client game itself.

 

That's for some of them at least and also why legal mods have to be updated after each of the game update.

 

We've seen them in WoT, with tons of evidence that they were in use, i have no idea if people are cheating in this particular game although it wouldn't surprise me, but there is a lot less need for it because of the way the players are equiped with tools which are absent from WoT and the way detectability and spotting mechanics works, plus ships are a lot less difficult to hit so aimbots are not needed at all, not even sights with deflection angles.

 

To me cheating is made more redundent in WoW for these reason but that doesn't mean that some geezer with a good programming skill level will not try to make some dosh out of people who weants to use his "work".

[mtm78]

There is NO need for hacking at all, the same way that drivers works, before sending data to the server, a cheat CAN alterate them from within the client game itself.

 

There is no data being sent to client unless the the server decides the enemy ship should be visible to the client. 

 

So try again.

 

Explain how you think a client side cheat can hack WG servers to get positional data for unspotted ships, I would be delighted to learn how the game mechanics work. 

 

?

 

The part about drivers =

 

Moving aim points -> the internal one which used WG's own code was removed and python access was closed. As with any game, it's always possible to intercept dirextx draw calls and thus get the ship models and calculate an aim point based on it. 

 

~~ 

 

and the way detectability and spotting mechanics works

 

.. you seem to not actually know hot it works if you think there is server - client communication for unspotted ships? Positional data is only transferred from server to client if the ship is spotted so there is nothing to intercept in the scenario I asked you about. 

[ThinderChief]

 

There is no data being sent to client unless the the server decides the enemy ship should be visible to the client. 

 

So try again.

 

 

?

 

The part about drivers =

 

As simple as...

 

Server computes object A X and Z coordinates and send them to client game, (Y is the vertical axis on 3D, not used on WoW). Aimbot records frame 1 from a sequency and computes X/Z coordinates of object A.

 

When frame 2 data is sent to client game, aimbot can easily compute the difference between frame 1 and 2 of object A X/Z coordinates and predict an interception path for a known shell trajectory/velocity etc.

 

Here goes your aimbot and it's as fast as CPU number crunching and lag allows, otherwise said miliseconds most of the time, mouse drivers works exactly the same way, they CAN alterate data with mouse programming packages, they do not depend on servers to work, one player CAN alterate datas from a "normal" mouse behaviour and send different data to server. 

 

 .. you seem to not actually know hot it works if you think there is server - client communication for unspotted ships? Positional data is only transferred from server to client if the ship is spotted so there is nothing to intercept in the scenario I asked you about. 

 

Source? Visibility bots exists, we saw them at work in several videos, and i'm not sure it was because some geezer managed to hack on W.G servers, more likely that they managed to find another source of data giving away those vehicle position. Prety much the same about bots that makes tanks "disapear" when about to be hit in WoT.

 

I witnessed that myself, seeing my shell vanish when fired at point blank range on a target that was a "sure kill" and saw NO result whatsoever, not even dust from a miss on the wall behind the target, there again, and i played the replay dozen of time at the slowest speed possible, NO need for hacking the server, altering the data sent to it is more than enough.

 

And btw, bar the fact that my personal professional experience in 3D allowed me to know and comprehend that, i also was confirmed those fact by WoT Customer Service staff, who made it clear behind a doubt that this was the presice reason why they were very difficult to track and detect.

 

[mtm78]

Source?

 

WG.

 

Visibility bots exists, we saw them at work in several videos

 

Those were 3D 'radars'. 

 

Server computes object A X and Z coordinates and send them to client game, (Y is the vertical axis on 3D, not used on WoW). Aimbot records frame 1 from a sequency and computes X/Z coordinates of object A.

 

When frame 2 data is sent to client game, aimbot can easily compute the difference between frame 1 and 2 of object A X/Z coordinates and predict an interception path for a known shell tajectory/velocity etc.

 

Here goes your aimbot and it's as fast as CPU number crunching and lag allows, otherwise said miliseconds most of the time, mouse drivers works exactly the same way, they CAN alterate data with mouse programming packages, they do not depend on servers to work, one player CAN alterate datas from a "normal" mouse behaviour and send different data to server. 

 

 

The aiming 'helper' intercepts dx draw calls, not network traffic. https://graphics.stanford.edu/~mdfisher/D3D9Interceptor.html is an interesting read and shows both theory and practise. 

 

It's also not the subject, I know fully well how the aim 'helper' works so let's just stop polluting the actual 'question'. 

 

How do you get the client to display ships which aren't spotted, eg when the client has no information from the server about their location. 

[ThinderChief]

WG.

 

"W.G" is not a source, it's your source, i'm asking for a proper link, sorry.

 

And this has nothing to do with pollution, this has to do with conclusion drawn by WoT customer Servise staffers after i wrote several tickest on the subject, i posted their reply on WoT forum.

 

When i suggest that bot writers might well have find a way to find unspotted ships around, i'm pretty damned serious because those data are needed if only to render the vehicle itself in the same game, it wouldn't take much for those data to end up in a different form sent out of the server to another player, only not in the RENDERED form.

[mtm78]

W.G" is not a source, it's your source, i'm asking for a proper link, sorry.

 

WG dev's have publicly spoken / posted about this more then once, I am not going to do your homework for you though if I had a link ready I would of course give it. However I am confident you should be able to find a 'proper source' for it by yourself.

 

And this has nothing to do with pollution, this has to do with conclusion drawn by WoT customer Servise staffers after i wrote several tickest on the subject, i posted their reply on WoT forum.

 

Pollution? WoT?  Relevance?

 

When i suggest that bot writers might well have find a way to find unspotted ships around, i'm pretty damned serious because those data are needed if only to render the vehicle itself in the same game, it wouldn't take much for those data to end up in a different form sent out of the server to another player, only not in the RENDERED form.

 

Do you have any programming background? because what you're saying points to a big fat nope.gif. 

 

A client ALWAYS has it's own positional info, there is an interval based client - server synchronization ( this causes those desync symptoms where your own ship model seems to pass through enemy torpedoes, or get's hit by torpedoes which according to your clients render output looked to have missed ).

 

Then the server does visibility checks with all the other enemy players, only if a ship is considered detected your client needs to be aware of the positional data. This whole model was implemented to ensure the client can't be modified to show enemies which should be hidden due to concealment.

 

Even in WoT this system works the exact same. The only thing which can give away enemy locations in WoT is a mod which tracks destructible environment being broken ( trees, fences and so on ). This is also not done through interception network traffic, it's done because your client get's the destruction data since it has to update render state of those objects. Moving to a system where the server would only send object status if they objects are inside your actual current render viewport would only stress the network throughput and would create more possible issues like object 'suddenly' changing state when getting into view.

 

In short, the rendered form is still based on server send data for anything except your own ship, and even there it's intermittently synced with server data ( server has authority over client ). And the server does not send data for ships which should not be visible to your client.

 

The only possible client side modification to this would extrapolate a visible's model's speed and course + current rudder settings and extrapolate a probable model based on that. But you surely understand that the reliability of this extrapolation model diminishes rapidly with time as any player input which changes heading or speed incrementally creates a larger variance between actual position and the one from the extrapolated one based on the last know variables. 

[ThinderChief]

Do you have any programming background? because what you're saying points to a big fat nope.gif.

 

I have a LOT more professional experience of 3D and gaming than you for sure, no i'm not a programmer although i own a certtificate for old fashion basic programming which among other things would allow me to teach IT at beginers levels.

 

No point trying to make you admit to it, you already had the same stance in WoT, but i will stop here Edited  that's usually what happens with game client modification after an update. 

 

Cheats exists, Support confirmed that to me, they specifically said (and confirmed what i was saying) that they are difficult to detect BECAUSE they were not in direct relation with the server but instead are within the client game folders. End of debate. You can argue all you want you know too little about it to keep at it and not look plain funny, especially in a topic about cheats posted by W.G staff with the following quote.  

 

 we were able to ban all players who were detected using forbidden game client modifications

 

 

This post has been edited by the moderation team due to inappropriate remarks

[Lord_Holland_of_Wessex]

 

I have a LOT more professional experience of 3D and gaming than you for sure, no i'm not a programmer although i own a certtificate for old fashion basic programming which among other things would allow me to teach IT at beginers levels.

 

 

 

 

You, able to teach!! - ROFL.

[ThinderChief]

You, able to teach!! - ROFL.

 

I'm also a BFM instructor if you need to get a license with something else than your keyboard, some of us had a life before W.G.

[mtm78]

I have a LOT more professional experience of 3D and gaming than you for sure, no i'm not a programmer although i own a certtificate for old fashion basic programming which among other things would allow me to teach IT at beginers levels.

 

I fear for your students.

 

No point trying to make you admit to it, you already had the same stance in WoT, but i will stop here Edited  that's usually what happens with game client modification after an update. 

 

Lol... you think you can slander people when you feel like it? You're pathetic, every time people try to teach you something you go full ad hominem since you can't actually refute the things they say otherwise. 

 

Cheats exists, Support confirmed that to me, they specifically said (and confirmed what i was saying) that they are difficult to detect BECAUSE they were not in direct relation with the server but instead are within the client game folders. End of debate. You can argue all you want you know too little about it to keep at it and not look plain funny, especially in a topic about cheats posted by W.G staff with the following quote.  

 

Block Quote

  we were able to ban all players who were detected using forbidden game client modifications

 

`1. So.. you want to pretend I am saying there are no cheats? 

 

So yeah, it's not impossible there are still cheats out there. But WG is actively banning people why they catch using them, there been large ban rounds on RU cluster, or well there was info made public by RU cluster about how many accounts had been banned and I would hope this policy is the same on all regions. It's just that EU never makes those numbers public.

 

I never said otherwise.

 

2. The thing is, I actually understand how most of them actually work something which can't be said from you. Client side cheats don't need to reside in the same folder btw, they can be processes running fro ANY location. This again shows you don't understand what I been telling you about intercepting drawcalls to the renderer. Nothing. You probably didn't even click on the link trying to educate yourself ( though articles by someone with a doctorate from Stanford might be going over your head?

[darkstar73]

Hello all. I just have one thing. Why can´t someone have a personal oppinion on here? If someone have that some few members jump on them. Mog and make fun of them. And check stats and point out how useless they are. Have happend so many time. And one here is among the best(worst) of doing that. NOBODY can´t say anything. Then that someone just have to play God. Knows everything. And most others are wrong in those Gods eyes. Question is... Do they really have right all the time?? NO. But for heavens sake, DON`T mention that on here. Because if you do, you are a even bigger useless player.  Is that really a way to behave in a forum? And those personal insults....... Wake up guys. BEHAVE as grown ups. Cheat exist in this game. Server side or not. It´s a fact. I play for fun. If i loose against a pro player am glad. Maybe i can learn from him/her. Did that yesterday. Saw Flamu in action for the first time. Was Epic ) and there were others too. Great show. Anyway. Please accept others opinion guys. Have a great day

[mtm78]

Be more specific? Personal opinions are always allowed. [edited]which contradicts factual information is not. Stop defending him, no one here has attacked his stats in this thread. Instead, he is being taught things about how the client server model works and how certain illegal modifications work. 

 

If you want to talk about ad hominem -> 

 

Edited

 

.. that is his post, not any one else's. 

 

This post has been edited by the moderation team due to inappropriate content 

 

edit: seems I can't post a screenshot of the 'guy' getting his post edited for slander as it breaks forum rules 

[darkstar73]

Be more specific? Personal opinions are always allowed. [edited]which contradicts factual information is not. Stop defending him, no one here has attacked his stats in this thread. Instead, he is being taught things about how the client server model works and how certain illegal modifications work. 

 

If you want to talk about ad hominem -> 

 

Edited

 

.. that is his post, not any one else's. 

 

I don´t defend him. And i don´t care how cheating works either. Just that i hate cheating. But i react on that asap someone says anything, a few "pros" always have to comment things.

 

[DexterManley]

Hello all. I just have one thing. Why can´t someone have a personal oppinion on here? If someone have that some few members jump on them. Mog and make fun of them. And check stats and point out how useless they are. Have happend so many time. And one here is among the best(worst) of doing that. NOBODY can´t say anything. Then that someone just have to play God. Knows everything. And most others are wrong in those Gods eyes. Question is... Do they really have right all the time?? NO. But for heavens sake, DON`T mention that on here. Because if you do, you are a even bigger useless player.  Is that really a way to behave in a forum? And those personal insults....... Wake up guys. BEHAVE as grown ups. Cheat exist in this game. Server side or not. It´s a fact. I play for fun. If i loose against a pro player am glad. Maybe i can learn from him/her. Did that yesterday. Saw Flamu in action for the first time. Was Epic ) and there were others too. Great show. Anyway. Please accept others opinion guys. Have a great day

 

The reason this guy attracts so much attention is because of his 'I am always right attitude'

The perfect example;

I don't know why you claim anyone talking about stats lose credibility. Yes reading too much into stats can be silly, but in your case it's pretty obvious you are approaching the game completely wrong. If you average 21k damage in a NM there's not a whole lot you're doing right while sailing that ship.

 

In your case it's pretty obvious that you're impervious to comprehension of what people are trying to achieve even if explained several time over in plain English, especially by not reading the comments.

Let me make it clear to you, as was the case in WoT, I do not WANT to play YOUR way, I don't like it and I develop a play style based on what I am good at, which is gunnery and manoeuvring and require a particular type of ships, since i'm only at the 430th game and do not know the ships, I don't see why I should take your opinions on my stats into account, if the FACT that I don't care at all about it is not clear enough by now, tough, your lot.

And something else, if you think that your win ratio is related to your level of skill then you're seriously deluded, thinking you might be able to win it on your own perhaps? You guys got to stop this kidy thing it's becoming tedious.

End of debate.

 

Edited by ThinderChief, 16 November 2016 - 03:57 AM.

 

And the follow up;

 

There was no debate here, I was just stating facts.

 

​FACT are 1) I DONT care the slightest your opinion. 2) Your stats only reflects what the other team let you do, like that of the two guys who get wipe out rushing in one side of the map only for everyone to figure most red BBs were coming where I thought they would. Obviously I didn't last much longer but at least I had some time to see it coming, reason being I positioned myself for sniping.

Result, in 5 mn everyone in my side was D.E.A.D, so stop this B.S you're beginning to pull the hell out of me, you talk like someone who believe that he is the game winner, let me phrase it in plain English to you: YOU ARE NOT. 

 

You're like everyone else, part of a team and if it is bad I doubt very much that you will fare better than below average, I have NO problem 1vs1 whatever the tier and type, often going after the heaviest, and I won most of my engagements this way, THIS is skills, the rest is tactical and develops according to teams. So your guys insistence in pulling "stats" to make false point is relevant to ego tripping NOT reality. I reiterate in a last attempt to make you comprehend what developers says this game is about, DIFFERENT ships, different play styles.

Debate is close and my stats has got little to do with this. Eat it.

 

 

 

Edited by ThinderChief, 16 November 2016 - 04:38 AM.

 

 

 

This is Flamu he is talking to, not some bog standard average player, and you wonder why people lose patience with him?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mtm78]

a few "pros" always have to comment things.

 

Off course I will correct him if he's talking nonsense. This happens all to often and it's sad, especially since he seems to refuse to actually consider he might be wrong in ANY case anywhere. He's always right, and when he runs out of arguments he starts attacking the people directly just as he did here. This is sad behavior and we all know him for it, even more so then for his ability to misrepresent / doubt facts and information given. 

 

What do you suggest? Let him spread fud? What good would that do, you might have people reading his fud and taking it on face value. That would be bad, we don't want this guy to rub off on anyone.