STOP Carrier Discrimination!

[Xevious_Red]

Camping battleships are the closest equivalent to arty - big guns firing at long range, with luck playing a bigger factor than judgement regarding if you do massive damage/nothing.

 

Arty in Wot are disliked for 2 reasons: the first is that they can shoot you without you being able to shoot back. In this regard, carriers do share that trait. However so do ships invisi-firing, shooting from smoke, ships with high arc shells firing over islands, and ships that have a longer range than yours.

 

The main reason they're disliked is because hitting/avoiding arty shells is mostly luck. Unless you hide, an arty shell can sometimes miss you repeatedly even if you're sat still in the open, and sometimes they can hit you even if you're going full speed and dodging like mad.

Apart from "wait until the reticle has fully closed" there's not a lot the arty player can do to improve the odds of a hit. And since it can land anywhere in the large reticle, there's not a lot the victim can do apart from be somewhere it's not possible for it to land.

 

Planes on the other hand you can see 8km away. More if your team spot them first. You can shoot them down with AA, and your team mates can help with this. Defensive fire makes them much more inaccurate, but PREDICTABLY inaccurate (there's big spaces between each torp). The planes telegraph their attack run, which you can dodge by turning, or braking. They have to lock in their attack, which if you can get close enough to the drop point can cause the torps to not arm. In addition to all the above, your team has a carrier which usually has fighters that can disrupt the drop, and kill off the planes.

 

In short, carriers are virtually nothing like arty.

[WingedHussar_Adler]

 

I was expecting to hear this. 

I already had oustanding games in it, in my opinion. I obviously had some crappy ones where another CV was really determined to destroy me. I am still learning.

And since I played Artillery for a long, long, long time in WoT I find this class to be very similar in a few ways. Both are [edited]that shoot at you from far away where you can't see them.

 

 

 

Not really about WoW. Great game. Relaxing for the most part. My butthurt comes from WoT. I still have a bit of anger in me even though I had a small break from WoT. I do have a lotion for my butt now. 

Arty- you can not kill shell

CV- you can kill planes. (Teamplay) if you Are not in high AAA ship. 

 

 

 

 

[ghostbuster_]

 ​Cant compare since im only at NC atm but even without Manual fireconcroll (i go for AFT) i get 20 plus planekills if a CV atacks me wich dont happens often as Long as there are easyer Targets and i didnt even have the upgraded Hull. If i ry to atack any US BB from T8 up in a strike Taiho i take Major loses. If i Try to sink a NC in a shokaku i run out of planes before i sink her and im not exactly have abmysal CV stats. (expect for the taiho but i miostly played her before Total balanced MM were i faced Midways in my stock Taiho 2 out of 4 wich isnt really fun)

Well i play montana and i faced tier x cvs many times. Believe me if a cv wants to sink you, there is nothing you can do even in a montana with full AA setup. 

[Redcap375]

 

So this post is turning into a “my ship is harder to play than yours”

 

So, he is my option on the matter:

 

The CV is the king of muti tasking.  He/She has to guide his ship, his planes and keep up with the fleet (if he wants too, depending on the situation).  He also has to Manually aim bombers, torps and straf run fighter planes.  Something of which can not be conducted at the same time.  A word on Man vs Auto aim:

 

Manually aim vs auto aim

 

The same as a good player vs a bad player really.  At lower tiers you have beginner players learning the ropes. They click on the ship with their torp planes and there you go.  The other BB is also a beginner so he doesn’t know all this stuff about changing direction into the torps, changing speed and man aim aa guns. So you get a balance right?

 

All this changes at tier 6+.  Captains become more aware and start to know how to deal with torps/bombers.  This then makes Auto aim Completely redundant. BBs know what’s coming and avoid the torps 9 out of 10 times.  That is one of the reasons auto aim exists, it helps nobbie players sink ships without the need to flap about anything else that might be going on (muli-task). The other one being that sometimes you just don’t have time manual aim so you do a cheeky auto aim instead. But this is a last resort decision.  When I do auto aim at tier 6+, I fully expect to see no damage to the enemy ship.  Any captain worth his salt can avoid auto aim torps. You will always get the casual one slip the net, but thats it really.

 

Anyway, the CV player also needs target recognition. He needs to know what ships have what AA armourment.  Only a pelican attempts to torp run a Cleveland, never mind a bomber run.  My beloved Cleveland has a AA skill rating of 79-81 if I can recall .  79-81 for a tier 6 ship!!!!!!! (have all the skills and upgrades).  I can still mash up planes in a tier 9 battle ladies and gents.  This brings me onto the next point:

 

AA

 

There is so much flack in the air now-a-days im surprised the pilots can see out of the cockpit.  Lets take it for granted that any US cruiser/BB tier 8+ is a planes eating machine. IJN not so much BUT its still formidable 8+.  Tier 8 IJN planes really struggle to cope.  US ones are more durable but aa starts getting crazy.

 

Tier 7+ players are at least half good at this point.  They don’t just all bomburst on their own and are singled out by the CV. People start sticking together more and using eachothers aa cover.  I know this isn’t always the case but people or more aware of doing this practice.  This makes the CVs job a lot harder.

 

IM NOT COMPLAINING HERE as this is the way this game should be played, support/teamwork and all that jazz.  I do it all the while in my Cleveland.  But Im just saying that the CV has a lot less options in this situation than any BB will have.

 

Lets look at it this way.

 

Same class

 

A BB can sink another BB

A CV can sink another CV

 

BB

 

A CV can sink a BB, but it wont be quick and depending on the aa, captian and size of that said ship, not easy

A BB can close to one shot a CV when it becomes available. Long range fire (tier 6+) plus spotter plane = death

 

CL/CA

 

A BB should never lose to a cruiser, ever.

A CV will get smashed by a crusier.  Better AA, fast speed, quicker turning and on some, torps. HE his flat top to death and watch his pilots jump into the water.

 

DD

 

A BB can deal with a DD FAR better than CV ever can.  Anyone disagree with that one? Even though I have man aim sunk LOADS of dds hiding in smoke

 

Summary

 

The Battleship has a lot more advantages fighting another ship than the CV ever will.  He is just better equipped at doing this.  The BB captain only has to deal with what’s going on with HIS OWN SHIP.  Yes he needs to be aware of the map, angling against other ships but he has less to do than a CV captain does.  Hes is better at avoiding planes with his knowledge of the game and AA. And he knows when he sees a CV, he will sink it quickly.  The CV on the other hand is only really equipt to deal with one ship type….the Battleship.  DDs are too nimble and rightly so.  Cruisers are designed to combat Planes.  Both of which can hunt down and destroy a CV piecemeal.

 

So many times I have put 7-8 torps into a BB (tier 8) and its still aflot. This isn’t a good example of a good BB player as he should never take more then 2 torps per IJN group.  Doing this probably cost me at least half, if not more of the planes I originally sent (2-2-2).  Hits are harder to active due to all the figher float planes a fleet can have and the AA ability screwing up your aim.

 

A BB doesn’t have the problem of some anti shell mini gun chewing up his shells in mid-air does he?

 

Coming from a mainly CV/CL captain, I enjoy playing BBs.  Granted, its not my favourite class at the moment but I’m warming to it. Playing a class I used to pray on as a CV captain puts things into perspective.  You can achieve more kills in a BB with all things being equal.  You have the ability to effect the game more in a BB. You have the ability to sink ships easier then the CV. 

 

Hit a cruiser in a tier 8 BB, its toast.  

Hit a DD in a tier 8 BB (HE) its even more toast.

Hit a cruiser in a CV, if your even lucky enough to even hit with it torps, your not gonna sink it in one (tier 8)

Hit a DD in a CV, you need to AT LEAST hit it with 2 torps (IJN) if you even manage to hit it in the first place.

 

I know it depends on the skill of the captain but tier 6 and up players are better at dealing with planes.

 

I don’t mean this to sound anti BB as that’s not my intention.  I enjoy BBs and I am currently grinding the IJN line.  But from someone who has played CVs from the start of WOWS (not closed, two day out) and is currently playing/grinding BBs 2-3 years later, I can honestly say that being a BB is A LOT easier than playing with a CV

 

Well, that my honest opinion anyway.  Comments welcome chaps…

 

[Redcap375]

I have taken out a full (2-2-2) IJN setup in my AA-to-the-max Cleveland on their first bomb run. He dropped a single bomb that missed. What does that tell you about AA in this game? Just look at my states on the most planes killed? its not hard.

 

I have stopped playing cruisers at tier 8+ though, because BBs and DDs rule the waves.  Its not worth the hassle.  But that another subject altogether  

[ghostbuster_]

I have taken out a full (2-2-2) IJN setup in my AA-to-the-max Cleveland on their first bomb run. He dropped a single bomb that missed. What does that tell you about AA in this game? Just look at my states on the most planes killed? its not hard.

 

I have stopped playing cruisers at tier 8+ though, because BBs rule the waves.  Its not worth the hassle.  But that another subject altogether  

Its simple, do not attack to cleve with tier 5-6 cvs. Its also same for kutuzov and tier 7-8 cvs. There are several AA ships.

[Redcap375]

Ghost, you mean tier 5-9 CVs.  That is easier said then done m8.  You wouldn't (like ive already said) attack a Cleveland head and we all know this.  But they are normally dotted around other ships like a good support captain does, like a BB? You attack a BB and you get a face full of AA from the support Cleveland/Kutuzov AND the US BB it's self.

 

CVs can hold their own until...about....Tier 8.  With that being the max IMHO.  AA from tier 8 and onwards gets crazy.  Someone hit the nail on the head when he said that CV suffers when against 2 tiers higher ships.  That's true for most ships i know, but the AA skill in those 2 little tiers effects little tier 8 planes far too much.  More so than if a tier 8 BB meets a tier 10 BB or CA.

[ghostbuster_]

Ghost, you mean tier 5-9 CVs.  That is easier said then done m8.  You wouldn't (like ive already said) attack a Cleveland head and we all know this.  But they are normally dotted around other ships like a good support captain does, like a BB? You attack a BB and you get a face full of AA from the support Cleveland/Kutuzov AND the US BB it's self.

Find an other target. Attacking to a target which has sulport is foolish. AA CAs can make you lose many planes. Those are usually USN CAs and aa defence is their main strenght. So try to avoid them. US BBs alone are  not problem. Even tier 9 cvs can rape full AA montana. 

 

Once i saw a cv player whining about aa in chat. But right before he cried he tried to attack me. We were 3 cas division and we were all together. My AA roon, baltimore and atago. He lost all his planes. Would you expect something else in that situation. He was a fool for trying to attack that many cas.

[Ictogan]

Find an other target. Attacking to a target which has sulport is foolish. AA CAs can make you lose many planes. Those are usually USN CAs and aa defence is their main strenght. So try to avoid them. US BBs alone are  not problem. Even tier 9 cvs can rape full AA montana. 

 

Once i saw a cv player whining about aa in chat. But right before he cried he tried to attack me. We were 3 cas division and we were all together. My AA roon, baltimore and atago. He lost all his planes. Would you expect something else in that situation. He was a fool for trying to attack that many cas.

 

Which sums up the balance of CVs. They are strong at attacking lone targets but very weak at attacking groups of ships.

[Redcap375]

Ok then m8, lets say a tier 8 IJN CV attacks a US tier 10 BB or even tier 9 BB.  

 

How many of those said planes do you think will be able to drop a torp (2-2-2)? Because we all know that you ALWAYS target the torps bombers first..

 

Thats a single BB only. A lone single BB. No CA support?

 

"Find an other target. Attacking to a target which has sulport is foolish. AA CAs can make you lose many planes. Those are usually USN CAs and aa defence is their main strenght. So try to avoid them. US BBs alone are  not problem. Even tier 9 cvs can rape full AA montana. "

 

Thats all fine and dandy saying find a single BB but at tier 8-10 how many single targets are knocking around without some sort of support.  Hardly any because captains are more switched on, not all granted, but a hell of alot more then tier 4-6.  Would you agree?

 

I still come away from Battles with 4 ships sunk in my CV dont get me wrong, but the point im trying to make is its alot harder playing in a CV then any other ship.  And the AA has help that alot.  Not  like im against it but im just saying how people struggle with CVs at higher tiers.

[ghostbuster_]

Ok then m8, lets say a tier 8 IJN CV attacks a US tier 10 BB or even tier 9 BB.  

 

How many of those said planes do you think will be able to drop a torp (2-2-2)? Because we all know that you ALWAYS target the torps bombers first..

 

Thats a single BB only. A lone single BB. No CA support?

 

"Find an other target. Attacking to a target which has sulport is foolish. AA CAs can make you lose many planes. Those are usually USN CAs and aa defence is their main strenght. So try to avoid them. US BBs alone are  not problem. Even tier 9 cvs can rape full AA montana. "

 

Thats all fine and dandy saying find a single BB but at tier 8-10 how many single targets are knocking around without some sort of support.  Hardly any because captains are more switched on, not all granted, but a hell of alot more then tier 4-6.  Would you agree?

 

I still come away from Battles with 4 ships sunk in my CV dont get me wrong, but the point im trying to make is its alot harder playing in a CV then any other ship.  And the AA has help that alot.  Not  like im against it but im just saying how people struggle with CVs at higher tiers.

Did you try to drop from distance? I have never played tier 8 IJP cv but i play lexi. And i have never got any problem with attacking tier 8-9 USN BBs. 

[Redcap375]

 

Which sums up the balance of CVs. They are strong at attacking lone targets but very weak at attacking groups of ships.

 

Buts that the problem m8.  Even Lone single BBs has the AA ability to knock cv planes out the sky at a rate that isn't fitting to the game.  I can not speak for tier 10 CVs as i haven't even thought about getting that high in a CV as i dont think i could bare the heartache.  Have you seen the AA on ALL tier 10 CA? my god man. Tier 10 is Campfest at its best with every ship huddled together, how many ships go solo.  Not that many i could see lads.  I dont blame them too. I would/do.

[Redcap375]

Auto aim = more distance.  More distance = More time for the BB to 1. turn and 2. Change speed. But i agree with you on one point m8.  US Planes are ALOT harder to knock down and have a better spread which we all know.  Im surprised you use AS setups and i forget that people use them.  Every time i face one i just shot their torps planes down every time. Maybe i need a change and get my Lex back.  Not played it since the 1000000 Damage bomb thing happened.Lol.  But i never have problems with enemy AS setups so i never go for one myself.

 

Anywhoo, see you on the big blue  

[havaduck]

 

Which sums up the balance of CVs. They are strong at attacking lone targets but very weak at attacking groups of ships.

 

 

(watch a little bit after the hummer part) I know its not from a current version (pretty old actually) and the CV deserved _some_ damage for being cought standstill/slow moving (and also loosing ALL the involved planes without question), but lets recap shall we:

 

1 x T 10 Montana, undamaged probably fully AA speced and focusing on a group

1 x T 10 Hakuryu, undamaged also probably focusing one group

1 x T 8 North Callie, undamaged probably fully AA speced and focusing on a group

 

VS

 

2 Squads of T 10 torpedo bombers, flying full middle finger DIRECTLY over the T 8 BB without a care and ofc well inside the other ships AA bubbles.

 

= 1 bomber shot down BEFORE the drop and 6 in total - while oneshotting that CV. 

 

Damn! those 6 planes planes lost out of a mere 130+ sure hurt that midway. That teamplay and shared AA certainly paid of!

Hey I can get 6 floatplanes on some of my ships with superintendent and premium consumable too - I offer them all to have the enemy carrier insta-die at the beginning of the battle - everybody seems to think thats a good trade anyway.

 

 

Like I said out of version, but this sums the damage whoring so perfectly up, but heavens help if CV get to do something else (and get rewarded for that) aside from damage whoring.

 

[Thorontir]

havaduck, I am affraid this video from Aerron cannot be taken as any kind of proof in this discussion. Nowadays Midway does not have two torpedo bombers squadrons as opposed to the video. Furthermore, along with the change to Midway setups came buff to long range AA and additional anti-air perks for captains. If this game would happen in the current version of WoWS Midway would have lost all torpedo planes in that strike with 4 torps dropped at the target (probably it would lose even more due to strengthen long range AA on Montana and NoCar and Defensive AA consumable on Haku and all 3 players would focus single squadron). I agree that CVs can still be very strong, especially if you focus all strike power on a single, lone target, but high tier AA is really frustrating. I do not like carrier sniping tactics, but I started to use it simply because I cannot see any better target for Hiryuu at the beginning of tier 9 game...

[Ferry_25]

lol. I'd never discriminate a CV. If an enemy CV manages to 1 shot me with a sublime and inescapable torp spread I usually compliment him (her). I do see a lot of potatoe carrier players though: leaving their DD's to rot and not covering them with fighters (even if they have a fighter setup!). Not scouting, and sending all their squadrons to the nearest USN high tier cruiser they see. That is: if they're not AFK the entire game. In the extreme very best cases I see the first planes take off in the 10th minute on my side.... Not to mention the stationary carriers... For God's sake: you have 2 minimaps! You can see the entire field in the blink of an eye and yet stay stubbornly still and wait for the inevatable wrecking. One more thing: if a DD pings on the MM: it's meant for you...

Oh and did I mention the extreme rocket science ability to make a small detour in recalling your planes and not call them back in a straight line? That's almost as magical as the WASD hack... So no I don't discriminate CV players. I do critisise some them though.

[Elenortirion]

Oh and did I mention the extreme rocket science ability to make a small detour in recalling your planes and not call them back in a straight line? That's almost as magical as the WASD hack... So no I don't discriminate CV players. I do critisise some them though.

 

when I'm in my CV I'm usually to lazy to care it they can track my planes back to me....

 

and the only cases when there are other consequences of doing so is when they are coming back from CV sniping attempt which I pretty much never do....

 

although I do realise thats not the proper way of doign stuff

 

[although detouring planes is not as powerfull hax as WSAD because the only thing you achieve is that enemy thinks you are somewhere else than you are.....]

[Talladega_Night]

#NotYourBB #BBGate

[Myrmix]

I started playing battleships and meanwhile love to play carriers (no damn rng)...so i am in the sweet spot to have an idea, how the BB is maneuvering and still can dodge most enemy strikes in my floating brick

 

[Elenortirion]

I started playing battleships and meanwhile love to play carriers (no damn rng)...so i am in the sweet spot to have an idea, how the BB is maneuvering and still can dodge most enemy strikes in my floating brick

 

cxurrently I'm engaging all 4 types of ships alongside the IJN tech tree - so when in DD I can know how all other ships may behave, when in CA/BB I know exacly what DD is going to do and when in CV...

 

and also of course I have an idea of how ppl are dropping their drops - and you know what? - a damn way to many of them is using autodrops on their torpedo bombers - its most of time really visible when they are doing so

[creamgravy]

 

Tell that to my AA spec'd cruiser.

Planes dropping out of the sky, kill count going up, guns blazing, tracers filling the sky.

 

I used to have a full AA spec Cleveland and Farragut (check out my average plane kills in both) Then I realised staying out of the fight (camping) to protect my paper AA modules and pressing the 'I win' button when planes came close was actually very boring.

Noob carriers fed me planes, good carrier players (esp in +1 tier) still spanked me when they pleased. There was no in between.

 

Games are SO much better without the current damage whore carriers messing up the balance. It was better when they were super OP, at least we could rage and team together around our own carrier.

 

I wouldn't mind AI planes for those great special effects...

 

 

[Redcap375]

havaduck, I am affraid this video from Aerron cannot be taken as any kind of proof in this discussion. Nowadays Midway does not have two torpedo bombers squadrons as opposed to the video. Furthermore, along with the change to Midway setups came buff to long range AA and additional anti-air perks for captains. If this game would happen in the current version of WoWS Midway would have lost all torpedo planes in that strike with 4 torps dropped at the target (probably it would lose even more due to strengthen long range AA on Montana and NoCar and Defensive AA consumable on Haku and all 3 players would focus single squadron). I agree that CVs can still be very strong, especially if you focus all strike power on a single, lone target, but high tier AA is really frustrating. I do not like carrier sniping tactics, but I started to use it simply because I cannot see any better target for Hiryuu at the beginning of tier 9 game...

 

complety agree lad. That vid made me chuckle, that wouldn't happen at all now-a-day. Like you've said, a LOT of things have changed since that did came out. What CV captain stays still when getting attacked by bombers!!! Some people.

[Redcap375]

 

I used to have a full AA spec Cleveland and Farragut (check out my average plane kills in both) Then I realised staying out of the fight (camping) to protect my paper AA modules and pressing the 'I win' button when planes came close was actually very boring.

Noob carriers fed me planes, good carrier players (esp in +1 tier) still spanked me when they pleased. There was no in between.

 

Games are SO much better without the current damage whore carriers messing up the balance. It was better when they were super OP, at least we could rage and team together around our own carrier.

 

I wouldn't mind AI planes for those great special effects...

 

 

 

Spanked you when they pleased? In a Cleveland? Please. I seriously cant remember if a CV has ever sunk me in a Cleveland. Maybe with no upgrads and no mods and captain skills.

 

Shame im at work at the mo as i could put on any vid of my skill 79 Cleveland SPANKING planes out the sky.  Thats 1 ship taking out all the torps bombers before they even release one torpedo. I have to admit, if its a full AS US CV then you don't have time to knock them all out before they drop some bombs, but ALL of the torps are dead and 2 of the 3 bombers groups too.   At a range of 7.4 km away there gettting spanked every inch. They have just wasted a full air group on one CL, or on a BB protected by a CL.

 

I'm talking about a tier 6-8 carrier here chaps..

 

Im being completely honestly here and just writing what happens.  Im not much of a stats freak and all that jazz but only say what i see. I understand that my Cleveland is Full AA set up with manual AA aim and AFT, including mods, upgrads and everything, which isn't common.  People tend to go for Demolition expert instead. Atlantas are another one that spanks planes.  God help the planes if they have Manual AA aim.

 

Horses for courses m8.  You found it boring some people find it helpful.  I for one find it helpful.  How many games did you lose doing this and how long ago? Saving your ships from planes whilst your own CV is murdering theirs, those that get through anyway. At the same time sinking dds like there going out of fashion with those 12 HE guns you have.  Marvellous. 

[Xevious_Red]

I usually spec my US cruisers for AA, and make sure they have AFT. Doesn't mean I'll camp at the back being boring, I'll play normally, and be quite close to my team anyway. When needed I'll make a small diversion to put myself closer to the planes but otherwise it's business as usual. Just I'll happen to have a ton of plane kills if they're foolish enough to fly within ~7km of me

[Redcap375]

I usually spec my US cruisers for AA, and make sure they have AFT. Doesn't mean I'll camp at the back being boring, I'll play normally, and be quite close to my team anyway. When needed I'll make a small diversion to put myself closer to the planes but otherwise it's business as usual. Just I'll happen to have a ton of plane kills if they're foolish enough to fly within ~7km of me

 

And that ladies and gentlemen is how they should be played. +1 nice one