Exploiting fail divisions to be high tier

[EralionArkanar]

Hello,

 

I have seen something in a recent game, which I would consider an exploit if the MM and division system. The division consisted of 1 Tier 6 CV and 2 Tier 8 ships, think they were BBs. Frist I thought 'man, dumb idiots#, but then I realized: The MM makes sure, that CVs are balanced. This nearly guarantees, that a Tier 6 CV will not see anything over Tier 8, meaning the Tier 8 Ships going along will always be top Tier, never seeing any Tier 9 or 10 games. Only if two divisions would try the same thing at the same time it would be possible to see higher tiers.

 

What do you people think? Is that an exploit? What could be done about this?

 

One possible solution I see would be, to disallow having a CV on a division, that has lower Tier, than other ships.

[Shaka_D]

Not sure, I'd have to test it myself to see if it works...lots and lots and lots of testing. After about my 100th game as top tier I may then agree with you

 

[Lladdir_]

Nope, the division would be counted as a tier 8 division so could see from tier 6 to 10. Divisions tier is based on the highest tier ship not the lowest. Doing that will only cause another tier 6 CV to be dragged into that match, I think.

[Babykim]

Nope, the division would be counted as a tier 8 division so could see from tier 6 to 10. Divisions tier is based on the highest tier ship not the lowest.

 

This, plus the added waiting time to match that failed CV.

[OttoKretschmer]

Hello,

 

I have seen something in a recent game, which I would consider an exploit if the MM and division system. The division consisted of 1 Tier 6 CV and 2 Tier 8 ships, think they were BBs. Frist I thought 'man, dumb idiots#, but then I realized: The MM makes sure, that CVs are balanced. This nearly guarantees, that a Tier 6 CV will not see anything over Tier 8, meaning the Tier 8 Ships going along will always be top Tier, never seeing any Tier 9 or 10 games. Only if two divisions would try the same thing at the same time it would be possible to see higher tiers.

 

What do you people think? Is that an exploit? What could be done about this?

 

One possible solution I see would be, to disallow having a CV on a division, that has lower Tier, than other ships.

 

already tried, it works quite well (except on rare cases where u are against the same type of divs as you). U still need to find a CV willing to be low tier everytime.

[Spuggy]

Nope, the division would be counted as a tier 8 division so could see from tier 6 to 10. Divisions tier is based on the highest tier ship not the lowest. Doing that will only cause another tier 6 CV to be dragged into that match, I think.

 

I don't think this would work how you are describing it.

 

The lone Tier 6 CV can't be dragged into a Tier 9/10 game to balance the CV's because that CV can only enter up to tier 8 games.

 

OP is correct and this is an interesting concept that requires dev input.

[mtm78]

 

I don't think this would work how you are describing it.

 

The lone Tier 6 CV can't be dragged into a Tier 9/10 game to balance the CV's because that CV can only enter up to tier 8 games.

 

OP is correct and this is an interesting concept that requires dev input.

 

No, the entire division counts as the highest tier, the only thing this would do is pull in an enemy carrier of low tier ( which will be rightfully pissed off at the fail division which pulled him in ). 

[Babykim]

We had this discussion before (see the screenshot of that Langley game to realize it does not, at least not always, work).

 

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/43883-a-cv-one-tier-lower-guarantees-that-division-is-top-tier/page__p__846561__hl__babykim#entry846561

[Azalgor]

Tier 6 and 8 get to play the same battle, the 2 tier difference that is allowed, and would not be considered a troll division. I think there is no problem in troling the MM like that and it should work fine with the masochist CV.

But then again, getting a friend that is 2 tiers lower than you, and the MM trolls the lowest tier by putting them into tier 10 game, now that is somewhat wrong, and would be good if they did something to change that, atleast lower the posibility of getting such games. To compensate, taking a minimum of 3 tier difference, would result in to those +2 tiers from the division highest tier as a penalty.

[Ictogan]

 

 

No, the entire division counts as the highest tier, the only thing this would do is pull in an enemy carrier of low tier ( which will be rightfully pissed off at the fail division which pulled him in ). 

 

Actually the only time a tier 6 CV(just as an example) can get into tier 9/10 matches is if both he and his enemy are in divisions with higher tier ships.

[the_dude33]

 

No, the entire division counts as the highest tier, the only thing this would do is pull in an enemy carrier of low tier ( which will be rightfully pissed off at the fail division which pulled him in ). 

 

You need to think this through to the end.

 

Normally, matchmaker looks only at a division's highest ship for matching - with the exception of a low tier cv in it. This would be matched equally against the enemy cv. It wouldn't work if the tier of the cv is 3 or more lower, but with -2 this guarantees tiers of VI to VIII for a tier VI cv in a division with tier VIII ships. All the enemy cv sees is that he is low tier, but properly matched. And the div's tier VIII enjoy being permanently high tier.

 

Saw it yesterday. Nice thinking, but yeah, that's rigging the game.

[mtm78]

We had this discussion before (see the screenshot of that Langley game to realize it does not, at least not always, work).

 

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/43883-a-cv-one-tier-lower-guarantees-that-division-is-top-tier/page__p__846561__hl__babykim#entry846561

 

That Langley can also end up in a tier 8 battle because of the Cleveland....

 

edit:

 

 

You need to think this through to the end.

 

Normally, matchmaker looks only at a division's highest ship for matching - with the exception of a low tier cv in it. This would be matched equally against the enemy cv. It wouldn't work if the tier of the cv is 3 or more lower, but with -2 this guarantees tiers of VI to VIII for a tier VI cv in a division with tier VIII ships. All the enemy cv sees is that he is low tier, but properly matched. And the div's tier VIII enjoy being permanently high tier.
 

Saw it yesterday. Nice thinking, but yeah, that's rigging the game.

 

See above -> the 'proof' Langley in division with a Cleveland is supposed to show this is an exploit, but it's not because the Langley in that screenshot is just lucky the Cleveland didn't pull him into a tier 8 battle where he would be out of planes after 2-3 attacks. 

[the_dude33]

 

See above -> the 'proof' Langley in division with a Cleveland is supposed to show this is an exploit, but it's not because the Langley in that screenshot is just lucky the Cleveland didn't pull him into a tier 8 battle where he would be out of planes after 2-3 attacks. 

 

Again, think it through...

 

Langley is not "lucky", that's the entire point. It would NEVER be drawn into a tier VIII battle for the simple reason that matchmaker EXCEPTIONALLY looks inside that division to match the cv. The programming algorithm "match cv in tier" takes priority over division matchmaking ("count division tier as highest division ship tier").

[mtm78]

 

Again, think it through...

 

Langley is not "lucky", that's the entire point. It would NEVER be drawn into a tier VIII battle for the simple reason that matchmaker EXCEPTIONALLY looks inside that division to match the cv.

 

I seen so many fail division with CV's being pulled into higher tier matchmaking where they were useless I can't even begin to imagine what you're trying to tell me?

 

edit2:

 

Ok so I read the edit: match CV rule > division matchmaking and that would prevent instances where a single enemy CV is pulled in to match the CV in your division?

[Sybeck]

It is also a possibility that an additional Tier 8 CV could be added in to each side during MM, which would totally screw the 2 Tier 6 CVs' day.  So there is a downside, but as I see it the only advantage here is for the T6 CV getting extra XP for damage against higher tiers.  T8 BBs are commonly taken out by lesser tier DDs or concentrated fire from another grouping of ships who of course will all get bonus damage XP against T8 BBs.  So it's pros and cons all round for this type of scenario/rigging so I find it hard to call it an exploit.  I just wish WG would make it rule that all division members must be of the same tier, is it that hard to enforce?

[mtm78]

It is also a possibility that an additional Tier 8 CV could be added in to each side during MM, which would totally screw the 2 Tier 6 CVs' day.  So there is a downside, but as I see it the only advantage here is for the T6 CV getting extra XP for damage against higher tiers.  T8 BBs are commonly taken out by lesser tier DDs or concentrated fire from another grouping of ships who of course will all get bonus damage XP against T8 BBs.  So it's pros and cons all round for this type of scenario/rigging so I find it hard to call it an exploit.  I just wish WG would make it rule that all division members must be of the same tier, is it that hard to enforce?

 

In the WoT test server they added a mechanic where same tier division get's XP bonus, +-1 tier division ( iirc, could be +-2 ) get's less and fail division get's 50% XP malus. While this does discriminate against solo players ( who will never be eligable for the bonus ) it's a step in the right direction if not only because it shows it's not something WG deems 'fine as is' or they wouldn't experiment with ways to change it. 

[the_dude33]

 

edit2:

 

Ok so I read the edit: match CV rule > division matchmaking and that would prevent instances where a single enemy CV is pulled in to match the CV in your division?

 

I'm not quite sure I read you right here.

 

What I meant was at the moment, matchmaker algorithm seems to give priority to the condition "match cv same tier" over "count div tier as highest ship in div".

 

That priority probably needs to be changed.

 

I'm a scientist, and as such it is evidence that interests me. The last few days I have seen numerous instances of those exact division setups being high tier. Never once did I see them to be counted for their highest tier ship and placed low tier (meaning, resulting in a cv mismatch). Now, I can handle statistics, and my observation could just be a fluke (that has a lower probability of occurring). That's why I think it is good to take into account other people's observations: there are already a number of those posting here in this thread.

 

If the high tier forcing (with a lower tier cv inside the div) didn't work, there wouldn't be so many people trying exactly this.

 

 

[mtm78]

Your personal observations do not match my own, but as I also realize personal observations are not conclusive I will leave the option open that I could be wrong and my observations are flawed. If they are not, this 'exploit' just does not work.

[RamirezKurita]

It generally works, except it can at times drag a lower tier enemy carrier into a game that it normally couldn't get into. Someone on these forums has even posted a matchmaker result that dragged an entire lower tier division into a game it wouldn't normally get into because they had a divisioned carrier. Either way it is fine though, as the mirroring limits the negative effects of the fail division, so having lower tier carriers is the only situation in which mixed tier division isn't actually a fail division.

[the_dude33]

The one evidence that I would accept for this specific divisioning NOT forcing the matchmaker is the following: CV mismatch in tiers (i.e., difference in cv tiers between the two teams).

 

Anybody seen this?

 

The exploit "works" when the specific div's ships (other than cv) are ALWAYS high tier.

[AnotherDuck]

You should only start a division with mismatched tiers if you think the lower tier ship can pull its own weight in the higher tier. Including CVs. Therefore, a lower tier CV in a division should get matched against a CV of the higher tier of the division.

[mtm78]

The one evidence that I would accept for this specific divisioning NOT forcing the matchmaker is the following: CV mismatch in tiers (i.e., difference in cv tiers between the two teams).

 

Anybody seen this?

 

The exploit "works" when the specific div's ships (other than cv) are ALWAYS high tier.

 

tier 6 ship, with tier 4 carrier will get into tier 8 match with an enemy CV tier 4 pulled in as well. This I seen with my very own eyes, and more then once. So the only 'evidence' there can be imo is a developer stating that the MM does indeed work in a way that mirroring will allow other ships to always be top tier.

 

The only thing taking a low tier CV in your division would do is make sure at least ONE of the enemy carriers will be of equally low tier. 

 

edit:

 

Anyone stating that they observed otherwise, please provide prove. The way I explained is the official way the MM works as given by the developers at this time (iirc), the burden of proof lies with the people claiming they are wrong. 

[KL_7]

 

tier 6 ship, with tier 4 carrier will get into tier 8 match with an enemy CV tier 4 pulled in as well. This I seen with my very own eyes, and more then once. So the only 'evidence' there can be imo is a developer stating that the MM does indeed work in a way that mirroring will allow other ships to always be top tier.

 

 

From what I have witnessed (not enough occurrences to qualify as a proof of any sort), It seems to work pretty well as long as the CV's MM bracket fits the rest of the division. A T4 CV is not supposed to see T6 battles anyway, which I believe nullifies the possibility of any mirror MM exploit.

 

All the CV faildivisions I saw (and again, I haven't seen that much of them. Probably less than one in every 50 battle or so) used ships fitting the same MM bracket, usually T5 CV with T6 or T6 CV with T7-8 division mates... Mostly BBs who then enjoy a pretty chill game bouncing shells and shredding planes.

 

Again, that does not qualify as proof, I'm aware of that, but I have yet to see an occurrence of a T6 CV being dragged in a T10 game by a T8 division mate (for instance). If anyone already saw this (and has a screenshot at hand) then I stand corrected.

[EralionArkanar]

You should only start a division with mismatched tiers if you think the lower tier ship can pull its own weight in the higher tier. Including CVs. Therefore, a lower tier CV in a division should get matched against a CV of the higher tier of the division.

 

That actually sounds like an interesting idea, I could live with that. As it keeps the negative effects on the other players as small as possible. Though I think a system to punish or entirely prevent complete Troll setups at least would be welcome.

[ShockPirat]

 

 

As it keeps the negative effects on the other players as small as possible.

 

...except it punishes the fail divisions team mates even more.

WG should simply forbid fail divisions. The easiest and most complete fix. Nothing else can suffice.