HE-spamming

[vikingw]

I know this issue has been adressed before, but I could not find any, using the search option. 

I love sailing the big BBs - for their guns, their armor, their general historical significance etc. but I find it more and more frustrating to be HE spammed from 13-20 km away, by much faster shooting guns, and much more precise guns. Honestly I don't see any clear solution, other than a general nerf in HE shells - but as I said, just because I don't see any other way. 

The problem resides, no matter if you sail a BB, CA or CV (dds are just to nimble to be included), so this is also a general post regarding the HE problem - no matter the ship.

I see several significant problems, but before I adress those, let me just start answering the typical responses:

1: "As a BB it's not your job to take on dds": True, but since we all play and know random battles, we also know how little we can rely on the general support.

2: "You have (BBs and CAs) much bigger guns, so stop crying. Yes, we do, and to counter that the DD have: faster shooting guns, more precise guns, more manouvarable ships and better concealment

As a fan of big ships I see several problems with the curreent setup (including both CA and DD):

1. From a distance of 13-20 km the bigger guns suffer from considerable worse spread - on top of a worse reload (the reload time itself though, seem well balanced)
 

2. The secondaries could have been a powerfull help, but instead it's just nice firework unless your enemy is below 3 k hp

3. The problem is the same no matter if it is a gun heavuy DD or a CA, however the CA HE-spamming is in general only when beyond 15 km - unless we talk about the Des moines or the Zao. (if you are in doubt, check their base gun stats.
 

The problem - IMO only consists of the gunboats - regarding torpedoes, they got a nerf, and ships got the protection against them, 


So a solution? - a general nerf on HE shells? - perhaps reducing the chance, or buffing some kind of counter on the bigger ships? otherwise A buff to the secondaries might help?


Another thing that need a general buff would be the higher tiers income - kind of a sidenote here, but I can't remember any real reason not to give a prober income to higher tiers, from WG?



Hope this was not all too confusing. Was made a late day after work.
 

[Xerkics]

You can somewhat alleviate it with picking modules that reduce duration of fire and use your heal to counter the fire damage and save your damage control consumable for when there are too many of these . The only ship that really causes  me problems was Zao when in tirpitz . Other than that I think the fires are mostly manageable no nerf is needed i think he spam used to be much worse before.

[ParEx]

The main mistake you make is the misbelief that you and your BB should be able to counter EVERY enemy class.  DDs are your main counter besides maybe CVs, so they have to have some advantage and ITS NOT YOUR JOB to fight DDs at maxrange.

You got classes better suited for that - your teams gunboats (CAs, DDs). I cant imagine a way balancing classes without taking that into account.

And for a lot of ships HE shells are the only usable ammo against BBs, and HE has already got a major nerf some time ago.

 

So yes, according to your logic I could ask for a major nerf in BBs AP mechanics since they hit my CA hard at distances I cant even fire back. So...how about balancing that? Taking away 5-10km of BB Range for Balancing issues? Reducing max. AP damage?

[Spellfire40]

if you want reduced fire chachance give even DDs a decent Overall damage with AP vs BBs.........even agist angled BBs......dont want too? Then five with a few fires.

HE and fired are the only way for gun oriented Units to do damage.

In the time you burn down you can take out 2 to 4 CA.

If you can sucessfully disengage you can repair most of the damage due to the fact that ist light damage.

 

So No?

Perhaps ist time to buff Torpedos agian so they dont come up with what does anoy BBs next?

[Samurai__]

And What about BBs spamming AP, all those citadel hits...

 

NERF AP PLOX!!!!!

[Phlogistoned]

Use all speed settings, including quarter-speed and half-speed, and keep a keen eye on the minimap. Be ready to turn if it looks bad on your flank.

 

Try to advance so you have islands in front of you, so you can use them for turning without exposing broadside to BBs and german cruisers. Islands work as torpedo protection too.

[Azalgor]

What id like to see gone is stealth shooting, that makes HE spam this bad, by the time a BB turns around to try and get away, that is pretty much impossible with their agility, half heatlh is already gone, and your allies are glad its not happening to them, so they are already long gone running away. Im not talking about from within a smoke, im fine with that, a DD lays down smoke to cover his team or himself and alows stealth shooting - team play. You can sneak around, get close undetected all you want, but if you shot from open waters you get detected, they can reduce the visibiitys duration a bit, but this is a major thing, your scout plane does not reach and mostly CVs dont care either, not to mention DDs that by that time are all gone on your team in the first few minutes.

 

[krazypenguin]

I've died plenty of times from HE spamming cruisers whilst driving my battleships so I know what you mean OP. 

 

However, I usually find that if I take a few minutes break (to calm down) and then watch the replay where I got burned to death, it's almost always because I messed up.  

Usually, I'll find that in the stress of a battle it's easy for me to lose sight of the bigger picture, get into an unfavourable situation and end up isolated against multiple enemy cruisers at closer range than I realised.  So what at the time felt like a 1 vs 1 battle at long range (which as the BB player I think I should win) actually turns out to be a 1 vs 3 battle at much closer range, so it's not surprising I got burned to death.

[N00b32]

 

So a solution? - a general nerf on HE shells? - perhaps reducing the chance, or buffing some kind of counter on the bigger ships? otherwise A buff to the secondaries might help?

 

 

There is no solution other than to delete DDs, CVs and CAs from the game and make it a BB only game. 

[ParEx]

I've died plenty of times from HE spamming cruisers whilst driving my battleships so I know what you mean OP. 

 

However, I usually find that if I take a few minutes break (to calm down) and then watch the replay where I got burned to death, it's almost always because I messed up.  

Usually, I'll find that in the stress of a battle it's easy for me to lose sight of the bigger picture, get into an unfavourable situation and end up isolated against multiple enemy cruisers at closer range than I realised.  So what at the time felt like a 1 vs 1 battle at long range (which as the BB player I think I should win) actually turns out to be a 1 vs 3 battle at much closer range, so it's not surprising I got burned to death.

 

This.

Thumbs up for your self reflection. This is ecactly the point that is missing in most cases. Rant --> Forums. No thinking.

Its not only true for BBs, but for CAs and DD, too. Most fu**ed up situations are a classic layer 8 problem.

[Dee_82]

Different situations call for different tactics.  Since the Montana can only penetrate a yamato at a very specific angle under 10k I find the only safe way to even the odds is to burn the bugger as much as possible before closing in, the only times I find myself burning too much is when ive lost my situational awareness, I finally look at the map and see all my team mates have either died or run away whilst I'm left battling it out.  I can imagine its a pain in the arse for some but imagine the Atlanta, the only thing she has that's worth a grain of salt is her ability to make fire balanced by shooting a spud gun at her and you will knock out a turret.  a blanket nurf on HE would ruin some ships what has to rely on HE

[Khitan]

Whilst I could dismiss this as the long awaited "now torpedos are nerfed invisible firing he spam is next on the bb moan list" topic I will respond as neutrally as possible.

I play the gearing and zao, these can invisible fire he at 9.4 and 12.4 respectively. If your team is stupid enough to let me. If your dd, cv and cruisers fail to screen you and keep me threatened then I can and will rain down fire on you (my personal best on the gearing is 232 hits on a tirpitz - I didn't even kill him although he did finish the game just sat still sobbing quietly until torpedoed by my side, a mercy killing really ).

 

If you wander off alone or become separated from the herd then you are an easy target. So don't do it if you know there are he spammers about (unless you see me on the enemy team then please do yolo solo!).

 

I do have some sympathy for those bb players who find themselves at the receiving end of my tiny he shells, more often than not the fault for their pain lies with their teams inability to play as a team. Nerfing he spam just because people can't play would be detrimental to the game.

 

The torp nerf changed the game meta in ways the short sighted moaners failed to comprehend. Even before the nerf the thinking players were testing new tactics and ship play styles, that's part of the fun in these games - adapting.

 

So no, there should not be a he nerf to satisfy the bleating moans of players who can't adapt to a changing environment.

[ColonelPete]

AP still does more damage.

[Black0rchid]

I agree with the original poster, since the nerf on the shimakaze and it's torp walls HE has become a real problem.......I would like to see HE nerfed as well, makes no sense that 2 classes can counter BB after all they rule the seas!

 

On the same lien of though I think that the opening screen for the game should be changed, its to violent and not apropriate for what the game is becoming! My suggestion is to do something in this line:

 

 

/Sarcastic mode off

 

 

[ParEx]

I agree with the original poster, since the nerf on the shimakaze and it's torp walls HE has become a real problem.......I would like to see HE nerfed as well, makes no sense that 2 classes can counter BB after all they rule the seas!

 

On the same lien of though I think that the opening screen for the game should be changed, its to violent and not apropriate for what the game is becoming! My suggestion is to do something in this line:

 

 

/Sarcastic mode off

 

 

 

Indeed. Because BBs are for real men and BBs only have to be sunk by real mens BBs as the history has shown:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sunken_battleships

Thus, no other class is allowed to interrupt a real mans conversation *ehem* battle.

[Phlogistoned]

I've died plenty of times from HE spamming cruisers whilst driving my battleships so I know what you mean OP. 

 

However, I usually find that if I take a few minutes break (to calm down) and then watch the replay where I got burned to death, it's almost always because I messed up.  

Usually, I'll find that in the stress of a battle it's easy for me to lose sight of the bigger picture, get into an unfavourable situation and end up isolated against multiple enemy cruisers at closer range than I realised.  So what at the time felt like a 1 vs 1 battle at long range (which as the BB player I think I should win) actually turns out to be a 1 vs 3 battle at much closer range, so it's not surprising I got burned to death.

Solid advice.

[Redcap375]

Simply get used to it m8.  The only thing my Cleveland is gonna throw at you is HE because AP ISN'T AN OPTION against a BB.  Period.

[Myrmix]

I got not a lot of problem with fire (maybe the fire-chance on some ships could be reduced), but what bothers me most is the fact that a HE-salvo often tends to do more damage than a broadside with ap-ammunition (overpens, everyone), missing the citadel. why can't we get a chance for flooding when hit by an AP-round at or below the waterline?

[Msiiek]

Make the ships that are shooting visible always no matter the distance if there is a line of sight (smoke blocks that).

[Sub_Eleven]

Make the ships that are shooting visible always no matter the distance if there is a line of sight (smoke blocks that).

 

Why just stop there, get rid of the concealment system altogether!

 

/sarcasm

[Msiiek]

I see you don't understand. CV can drop on you but you can at least kill the planes and make him pay a bit for the attack. With such thing as Zao there is nothing you can do if you don't have a plane that will spot it for you and it will shell you too death. That's why I use full concealment on bbs becouse you can't do anything against invisi fire cruisers. What's his safe range? 15km? Short enough to hit at least half of his shells every salvo. Not too to mention a cruiser with a brain can actually dodge my shells if I can fire back at them (then I need to predict how he will dodge if I want to hit him). On the other side I can't dodge his sheds becouse my movement is to slow. The you lose 1v1 with a bb vs cruiser or you run from him. HE are fine, but invisible fire isn't.

Yes bb counters hard cruisers. But Zao isn't a cruiser becouse it's not countered by bbs.

[Ferry_25]

I know it's a pain in the butt and can be very annoying. Still I don't believe in a nerf. If you play it well it isn't that big of an issue. If in clos range I'll just sail straight to the smoke cloud to flush him out. Good chance I'll avoid the torpspread or take only 1. 1 on the direct nose hurts but is survivable. And If I see the little waterrat I'll waste him. It greatly helps if a cruiser is supporting me though. When on long range I'll just turn away and make lots of ruddershifts. Most shells will miss that way and those who do hit do marginal damage. Don't panic if you catch a fire: it's usually on the aft. Once a fire there will protect for more fires in 99% of the cases. Just heal them back after it's gone out. As a rule of thumb for me in a BB: 1 fire = no fire.

When driving a DD I always keep a keen eye to those smoke fags. There is hardly anything more satisfying than filling his cosey smoke with all the torps you have and being called a "cheater" when he takes them full broadside with a dev strike for you as a reward....

[Sub_Eleven]

I think as a bb you should rely on your team to do the spotting for you, you can't do everything yourself. Would you hunt for destroyers in a battleship? Of course not, you suck at it. Play to your strenghts and leave the other things to ships much, much better suited for the job. All you need to do is actually support your friendly ships so they can work their magic for you. I know this sometimes seems like an alien concept at times, but asking to completely negate other ships strenghts just because your favourite ship isn't very good at countering it, is kinda daft. With that logic, destroyers could ask to get rid of most battleships health and heals because they can't one shot em with a single torpedo.

[Msiiek]

Sure that's right, teamwork solves most problems. Playing a Błyskawica when i can shot from 10.1 km while completely safe doesn't feel right. It's good becouse you feel powerful, and bad becouse enemies can't do anything about that. Imo of stealth fire not removed the distances to achieve that should be increased like they did with Russian dds.

But more important than this should be fixing mm.

[Fiery_Kathy]

The balance is actually quite good at the moment.