''Passive'' play by mid to high tier battleships is the meta?

[thestaggy]

Frustrated with the paper tire 5 and 6 German cruisers I decided I'd give USN BBs a go seeing as I have an Arkansas Beta.

 

I found my time with the South Carolina and Wyoming to be pleasant if unspectacular. Then I got the New York and started noticing something very ''weird'' with mid-tier battleships.

 

In tiers 3 and 4 battleships were more than willing to get stuck in and the result is as an aggressive player I found that I was dealing above average amounts of damage in these battleships and contributing to the team. Not great, but stat sites indicate I was playing them better than average, so I was pulling my weight and importantly, using my HP. However, tier 5 and suddenly it seems as if I am the only battleship looking for a fight. Japanese BBs (Kongos and Fusos) seem to be the biggest ''offenders'' as I find them often at the extreme ends of their range (ie, riding the border) and then they use their speed to run when reds start showing up. As a sluggish USN BB you are, put politely, f***ed when your faster support turns and runs. I can't play passive like them and keep the distance because I can't match their range, so I have to get a little closer and then lose the support when they inevitably gap it. And as there are a joyous amount of rapid-firing HE spammers at tiers 3 - 5 you don't last long, especially when you cannot even outrun a St. Louis.

 

Is this what BB gameplay is at tiers 5 and beyond? HP preservation, stay as far away from the action as your guns allow and hope your DDs and CAs/CLs can win control of the map?

 

I can't speak for torpedo spam at tiers 8+, but at tiers 4 - 7 it isn't bad, so I cannot understand why BB captains want to ride the border. 

 

 

[HMS_Worcester]

I would say it is fairly evenly split between BB players who push and those who don't want to get their ships dirty.

 

My own personal experiences as a low-mid tier BB player is that some will push with me and be aggressive, but just as many wont. So as I said, about evenly split.

[Sub_Eleven]

It's the inexperienced bb drivers who will play like that, having no clue how to play their ship.  It's the same for cruiser or dd driver who try to torp something from 3rd line 20 kilometers away or are not aware of the 2 key.

[Khitan]

I don't play bb much so can't offer an insight into how they think but at higher tiers they will be cautious about exposing their flanks to enemy bb or torpedos.

This means that ally dd and cruisers need to be clearing the way ahead for them.

I find saying in chat as a dd that I am going to spot a certain line and requesting cruiser cover fire often draws a BB to follow us to take advantage of what we find.

If a BB player tried to organise this approach he would have to tell people what to do and how to play as compared to taking advantage of something that people are doing under their own free will. And you know how snotty people can get if they think they are being told what to do!

 

BB work if the other classes are doing their job properly but a lot of bb players forget that they need to actively support the other classes to do that by either swatting the enemy cruisers or just pointing their big guns at them - believe me there is nothing scarier to a cruiser captain than watching a Yamato slowly turning his turrets towards you to make you want to run away very quickly.

 

 

[Zgicc]

It's the inexperienced bb drivers who will play like that, having no clue how to play their ship.  It's the same for cruiser or dd driver who try to torp something from 3rd line 20 kilometers away or are not aware of the 2 key.

 

Yeh, but that got fixed in the last patch. The BB issue is only becoming worse and worse.

 

Their excuses;

 

Shima spam - Went away last patch. Had a BB player tell me he's not pushing cause of DDs. The only DD on the map was on the other side of the map and I pointed this out to him.

 

High repair costs - Not a "problem" just reserved to high tier BBs. Everything high tier has high repair costs. Problem didn't go away when we had a double XP/credit weekend for every win.

 

This only shows that most BB players are just clueless and that BBs in general are just a giant noob magnet.

[HMS_Worcester]

 

Yeh, but that got fixed in the last patch. The BB issue is only becoming worse and worse.

 

Their excuses;

 

Shima spam - Went away last patch. Had a BB player tell me he's not pushing cause of DDs. The only DD on the map was on the other side of the map and I pointed this out to him.

 

High repair costs - Not a "problem" just reserved to high tier BBs. Everything high tier has high repair costs. Problem didn't go away when we had a double XP/credit weekend for every win.

 

This only shows that most BB players are just clueless and that BBs in general are just a giant noob magnet.

 

And it just goes on and on....

[Srle_Vigilante]

Big guns big armor and big size... Must be invincible as well 

 

[Srle_Vigilante]

This only shows that most BB players are just clueless and that BBs in general are just a giant noob magnet.

 

Unfortunately not only this game has that problem. Every game has that problem because you know the horde mentality, the bigger the better.

[HMS_Worcester]

 

Yeh, but that got fixed in the last patch. The BB issue is only becoming worse and worse.

 

Their excuses;

 

Shima spam - Went away last patch. Had a BB player tell me he's not pushing cause of DDs. The only DD on the map was on the other side of the map and I pointed this out to him.

 

High repair costs - Not a "problem" just reserved to high tier BBs. Everything high tier has high repair costs. Problem didn't go away when we had a double XP/credit weekend for every win.

 

This only shows that most BB players are just clueless and that BBs in general are just a giant noob magnet.

 

More brainless "BB players are idiots"posts

[Historynerd]

Maybe I'm weird, but I'm sometimes faced with the opposite problem when I sail my American BB (the New Mexico, as of now). To be precise, with the support being too far forward, leaving me alone struggling at 21 knots! A nice occasion, if a lone DD skipper decides that he likes making holes in my hull.

 

I cannot say I am the perfect support when I play cruisers, far from it (I think I am too easily swayed by what looks like a promising target, so there's a good chance I might leave a BB ally on his own, although chances get down a bit if a DD was spotted nearby), but I try to keep that in mind. BBs are powerful, but they're not invincible, and if they are left alone they die; and if they die, the team is going to miss them.

 

Of course, there is lots of players who might do better in their own BBs. Last night, I saw a BB (a Kongo, I think) decide to rush ahead in plain view; in two minutes it was all over.

This does not mean BBs should be "passive", but they shouldn't charge ahead either; teamwork, if nothing else, is the answer.

[N00b32]

thestaggy, on 05 May 2016 - 05:58 AM, said:

Is this what BB gameplay is at tiers 5 and beyond? HP preservation, stay as far away from the action as your guns allow and hope your DDs and CAs/CLs can win control of the map?

 

 

 I can't say much to T V, the days of joy derping are long gone. In my opinion BB gameplay gets better at T VII as your teem (mostly) gets better and does not suicide. Up to Colorado you carefully pick you path where to go, you always use routes that avoid enemy DDs and you push hard at the beginning or if there is a problem, you defend hard. You angle you ship at all times when shot at and always aim for the citadell. If a DD comes closer you retreat and load HE. Then you give him in his face. You ignore sniping duells and push for the cap points. IJN BBs will visit you then, because you are slow. And if your support runs, you run too. There is no point in dying alone.

 

In short:

 

You tank for your team (that means team is nerby) and you push hard for goals, not for the kill. You always look for enemy DDs and angle your ship, then aim for the citadell of cruiser broadside noobs.

[StuntMan0369]

As a frequent mid to high tier BB player, I'll offer my insight. If I'm horribly out tiered (For example, Warpsite vs NC's and Tirpitz's) then I will play as passively as I physically can. I will still try and force an engagement where possible, but I'm relying on the high tier BB's to draw the fire. Warspite has good armour, but not against 16" shells.

 

If I'm top tier, then I know I'm responsible for whether the side pushes or not. Here's the thing; 8 times out of 10 it is not worth pushing a flank immediately. Pushing aggressively in the first couple of minutes when there's still uncertainty about where the enemy team is will just result in a dead top tier BB. Sure I could wing it and survive in a retreat, but there goes most of my ability to trade health with targets. I am not saying I'll then precede to stay at max-range/on the border and hope for others to push, that's not the case. When I feel comfortable pushing with support in an engagement I know I can win, then I'll push. Early rushes only work when you vastly outnumber your opponent. If it's 5 on 2, yes I'll push. 4 on 4, I won't push until we have a clear HP advantage. 2 on 5, time to beat a fighting retreat and delay as much as possible.

 

Not all BB's are brainless, I feel your pain to see them too, especially when I'm in a ship that physically cannot carry a game should they fail.

[Eternus_Damnatio]

Had a yamato stay in spawn all game refusing to move until the dd's were dead result was all our other bb's sat with him.

And when the team had already crumbled he finally decides to move from cap gets killed by a Shima and calls us all a*******s.

And the thing that makes me laugh about the situation the most is the fact that because he died to a dd he will feel justified in what he did.

Ignore the fact that he gave no support the whole game ignore the fact a dd could have slipped through anyway and ignore the fact that by the time he moved 80% of the team was dead.

[Admiral_noodle]

This is why I love to play BBs. I know how to angle and select targets and I know how to push. If the evemy BBs won't then it's wrecking time! Plus a bb pushing forward (I do this in us and IJN BBs although more carefully in Amagi) encourages the cruisers to come with you. The only problem I usually have is not being able to be everywhere at once.

Hanging back and "sniping" meta is just daft. Going forward then running away if you're outgunned is fine, but hanging back = low damage = low income.

People don't seem to understand that repair costs can be offset if you just pull your weight and get some damage in!

 

edit: knowing *when* to push is also important. Rushing in and dying is stupid. Knowing how to "press" the enemy then push when they start to give ground is the key. 

[thestaggy]

Thanks for the feedback.

 

I understand that you can't just zerg off at the start and hope to win. You need to watch the map and take note of the dispositions of both teams. But as someone that up until now mostly played cruisers, I know full well the psychological effects of a BB within 10 - 12 km range has on you. A Kongo firing at my Koningsberg from 18 - 19 km doesn't worry me because I'll just dodge it or dispersion saves me. On the other hand, a Kongo that is pressing is going to force me to withdraw as the chances of getting deleted increases as the range decreases. BBs must also realise that their HP pool and armour is just as important to the team as it is to them. Every citadel or 6k hit a cruiser takes is a shot you could've taken and either bounced or offset through a health regen.

 

I do try and retreat if the friendlies turn, but I'm certain that a New York is the slowest ship you will find in its tier, so I lag behind and get burnt to a crisp by aggressive cruisers. I think this phenomenon is more noticeable with a slower ship that presents a big target because I cannot run away as fast as everyone else, so at times it just feels like I'm the only ship within the enemy's range and my allies have long since moved off.

[Vanhal]

 

Yeh, but that got fixed in the last patch. The BB issue is only becoming worse and worse.

 

Their excuses;

 

Shima spam - Went away last patch. Had a BB player tell me he's not pushing cause of DDs. The only DD on the map was on the other side of the map and I pointed this out to him.

 

High repair costs - Not a "problem" just reserved to high tier BBs. Everything high tier has high repair costs. Problem didn't go away when we had a double XP/credit weekend for every win.

 

This only shows that most BB players are just clueless and that BBs in general are just a giant noob magnet.

 

I really expected better from you. Shame.

[ghostbuster_]

we were on the new high tier map with dozens of islands. we were in a div with 3 CAs and trying to engage the enemy. but our 2 montanas were at A1 instead of supporting us. there were not only hugging the borer, there were hugging the corner! and why? because of the enemy shimakaze. people are just [edited].

[Mayv]

I know how to make battleships stay away from the boarders and "sniping" at 20km.

 

Reduce the range of their guns!

[Xevious_Red]

 

More brainless "BB players are idiots"posts

 

Actually there's a difference between "BB players are all idiots" and "BB attract all the idiot players"

 

I play battleships a lot, and generally have a reasonable idea what I'm doing, but it's usually other BB that are the most derpy.

 

There seems to be a large number of players who are drawn to battleships because they think that because it's the biggest they'll auto win, without ever considering that having the worst rudder/speed means you need to pre-empt rather than react.

 

It's like FPS games - not all snipers are scrubs, but the sniper class (perceived as "safe") attracts them in droves.

[Panocek]

I know how to make battleships stay away from the boarders and "sniping" at 20km.

 

Reduce the range of their guns!

 

inb4 "Yamato had bazzilion range and I want to snipe Pearl Harbor from Two Brothers A1 spot"

[HMS_Worcester]

 

Actually there's a difference between "BB players are all idiots" and "BB attract all the idiot players"

 

My response was to:

 

 This only shows that most BB players are just clueless

 

Which is another typical comment from the increasing number of people on these forums who spend their time running down BB players. And what, there are no idiot players in CV/DD/CAs?

 

[ilhilh]

You can't be effective in a BB whilst staying at 20km + range the whole game.  People might try but they will always struggle more than people who use some considered aggression.

 

The NY is painfully slow and has crap range but that tends to be a bit of a USN BB issue up until you get to tier 8 but thankfully it is a good brawler.

[Zgicc]

Which is another typical comment from the increasing number of people on these forums who spend their time running down BB players. And what, there are no idiot players in CV/DD/CAs?

 

Of course there are idiot CV/DD/CAs. But something as integral to a push like a BB should not be sitting 10km behind the forward most CA while retreating, mind you because he got spotted and shot at once. And this behaviour is not rare, at all.

 

The IJN DD changes which made them less safe affected population numbers and the spam which was the problem at high tiers.

 

Most players, which happened to be less than stellar in the ship stopped playing it because they couldn't handle the changes. A number of better performing players found no issue with the changes at all. The shift in population was due to the skill floor being heightened by forcing the player to take risk to be effective. Risk was something which was not there pre-5.5. It was too safe.

 

Same with BBs. Its a noob magnet. Its too safe. You just sit back, launch your spotting plane (should be removed on T8+ BBs) and snipe away while being useless to your team in both dealing and tanking damage. But hey, there aren't any repurcussions for you. Its a win-win-win-lose situation. Where the lose is you losing the game, something which nobody really seems to care about lately. Of course there are situations where sniping is the only option (outnumbered on a flank on Two Brothers) but it is nowhere near the frequency at which it is observed in random games.

 

Maybe WG should tweak the credit formula to losing = full repair costs regardless of you end game HP while increasing winnings. Maybe we can get these backline snipers to move a bit.

 

 

I really expected better from you. Shame.

 

Interesting. What did you expect? Are the BBs you find in games people who actually have a W key? I must be missing them due to my bad luck I guess. Am I exaggerating?

[daki]

My comments mainly refer to high tiers (T8+) since I do not find mid tiers to be particularly affected by camping / passive gameplay issues.

 

First of all, I disagree with general statements claiming all BB players are "idiots" or "clueless"... It just brings toxicity to the discussion without any benefit or hope that such statements will change anything.

While some are (clueless I mean regarding their role) the same can be said for all classes playing high tiers. Though the rare CV players in higher tiers tend to be much better players on average than in other classes.

 

That being said, as it is unlikely that the average passive high tier player will somehow "understand" the mistakes and change the playstyle, it is definitely up to WG devs to adjust the high tier meta to fix what can be simply defined as "less fun and less enjoyable" compared to lower tiers.

 

My suggestions:

1. Lower the size of teams - I would reduce it to 7 (or 9 max) as the few random games I had with less than the full 12 player roster, were much more dynamic and aggressive. The reason is quite simple imho: As the tiers increase, attack capabilities (guns, range...) tend to increase much more compared to defensive capabilities (HP, armor...). This basically leads to situations that the more aggressive players are focused by a large number of ships (even 6-7 sometimes) which tends to end up badly quite quickly. In lower tiers mainly due to limited ranges the focusing is not that big of an issue.  With teams of say 7, usually an aggressive player would be focused by no more than 2-3 enemies which is much more manageable. The smaller rosters would also help fix the MM issues as the balancing would be much easier. In addition, campers tend to dislike being all alone on the map borders  - with 12 players you always have at least 2-3 of them who are happy to stay in the back and feel protected by other campers, and with fewer players they are "forced" to follow the more aggressive ones.

2. Abolish standard battles for high tiers - rationale is simple and straightforward as standard mode inherently promotes camping. Domination FTW!

3. Reduce map size and/or gun ranges - in order to force closer encounters

 

Now I know that it will probably take years before WG properly understands the issue or takes steps to address it. In the meantime I refuse to become a camper no matter the big incentives for such playstyle in high tier meta. I do not care if I lose credits in HT games as any loss can be easily made up in 1 or 2 lower tier games. Last but not least I do not mind playing the role of a rabbit (as in athletics) and setting the higher pace in the match despite seldom seeing the end of it and occasionally suffering abuse in the chat from campers. Always remember that aggressive players make the matches exciting and fun, while the campers kill it.

[kolloth]

I usually hold back a little at the start of every game (in a BB) just to see how the game progresses at first. I want to see where the enemy ships are heading so I can put my ship in a position to best hold them off. I also don't want to be the first to get into range of a group of cruisers due to not wanting to be on fire in three separate places at once all while dodging the incoming wall of torpedoes and attack aircraft.

I'll wait and just sail around our cap area until I know where I can best use the heavy fire power of the big guns. Once I know where the enemy DDs are and what the rest of the red team are up to I'll start playing more and more aggressively.