Secondary Guns Issue, Complete Analysis and Possible Fix.

[Brokenstar]

Yes, I am aware how very often "secondaries need a buff" topic gets brought up, and so I am going to take a full view on secondaries as a whole.

The Problem (Gameplay):
Important Issues with secondary armaments that all need to be considered:
-Range

-Accuracy

-Shell type

When ever an adjustment is made to them, considerations in all 3 categories need to be made. Shell Type is probably the most ignored stat that has a significant impact.

Range: 
As it stands, the range on secondary armaments is lack luster, and useless to 80% of the vessels in the game at the current moment. As it stands, even with buffing with skills and hardware, the only a few ships in particular that can do secondary gun builds "well" is  Warspite Nagato, Izumo and Yamato.

Accuracy:
Accuracy is the 2nd most complained issue on secondaries, the "drunk gunner" problem. In Game the Manual Fire control of Secondary Armament skill does solve it, but the cost of it being a 5 skill points makes it so it is usually only attainable when you have grinded a line with a captain until tier 8-9 at minimum. (unless you play ALOT of games with premiums)

Shell Type:
This is a very important factor as it defines whether or not your secondaries will set fires for passive damage. In game as it is, the size of the secondary gun more-or-less defines what shell type it will fire, but it is a somewhat blurry line as guns between 1mm-150mm fire HE, however guns between 140mm-155mm fire AP. that small overlap is more or less picked by balancing. This shell type issue is why USN BBs, of which ALL secondary guns on them are 127mm, all fire HE shells. As opposed to all the casement guns lining IJN bbs till tier 8 which are 140mm-152mm all fire AP shells. This is the probable reason as to why USN BBs get shorter ranges on their secondary armament. This theme is quirked by the fact that Izumo and Yamato switch over to primarily 127mm guns, and in addition receive even farther range on them.

 

Overall conclusion on problems:
As it stands, if a player wishes to do a secondary gun build, they really have to choose IJN, and only really to start to be effective at tier 9/10. Aswell, even with the maximized ranges, the range is still so short that in order to use them you must close in within a range at which your risk of receiving damage from your opponents is greater then that of the damage output that your secondary guns can output.

 

Possible Solutions:

1) An all across the board buff to secondary gun range, with accuracy and chance of fire setting nerf to balance. IMHO, the loss in accuracy and fire chance to get better base ranges on all ships of all classes is preferable then sticking with the current base ranges.

2) Significantly buff the "Manual Control of Secondary Armament" captain skill. As it stands, the accuracy buff that it gives still leaves the weapons relatively balanced for longer range combat. What should be buffed is the skill should be moved to level 4 skill level, and give an additional range boost to them, even if the accuracy buff is reduced as a cost for the range boost would be acceptable.

3) Seconadry Gun Accuracy could be affected by range. Primary Armament of BB guns allready have an accuracy buff to targets less then 5km away, so to make a similar effect to secondaries is theoretically doable in regards to how RNG gets calculated. (targets within 50% of their range are 50% more accurate, as an example, testing would need to verify what numbers works)

 

If it were up to me, I'd implement number 2 and 3 solutions. They together would open up viability for secondary gun builds for battleships, and even cruisers, of both the IJN, USN, and even the KM and IRN.

 

The Destroyer issue:

With all the buffs that I suggested, clearly, DDs would be completely and mercilessly murdered, other classes would do rather fine I think. So, here are 2 solutions:

 

1) A class bonus, in which DDs just will have a bonus to their class as a whole in that the firing accuracy on them from secondaries is reduced (perhaps an upwards of 15-20% accuracy nerf for secondary gunners when they are firing at a DD)

2) An active skill bonus. As it stands, the speed boost active skill doesn't give a real big effect. Sure, you are slightly faster while its active, but thats it aside from your camouflage nerf that temporarily occurs whilst it is used. I would suggest that when a DD uses this consumable, in addition to the speed boost, it also adds an accuracy nerf to secondary guns that fire at a target using that consumable. A DD could use the consumable more tactically for an offensive strategy rather then using it for just getting across the map faster or running away a tad bit faster. A similar effect could be applied to when a DD is in or behind a smoke screen. If both consumables had this additional effect, it would balance out the accuracy gain in my proposed solutions.

In my honest opinion, either one of both of the solutions to help DDs survive would be viable.

 

The Problem (GUI):

For the most part, the GUI for secondary gun usage is simple but lack luster. I only have 2 issues with it:

Damage Numbers:

As it is, there are no damage numbers displayed when a secondary gun deals damage. This is annoying as you have no real time conception as to how well they are doing, are they penning armor, etc. This could be easily remedied by the damage dealt popping up the same way as it does for primary guns, but perhaps with secondary gun damage being displayed in italics for easy comprehension. In the very least, this would allow damage counter mods to be able to read and add this damage actively.

Target:

A minor option would could be useful is the ability to right click a username in the enemy team list and click "Target Secondaries" which would be useful to getting a lock unto a DD popping in and out of detection.

 

Banner:

For some reason or another, their is no banner for secondary gun hits. I have actually made a banner on what I could imagine that the banner could look like: 

 

If this banner would show up under the conditions of a secondary shell hitting AND damaging the target, I'd be happy. The only rational argument against it is "but its an AI getting banners for you!" the counter to this being of course, plane kills are also AI kills that you yourself didn't do actively. An additional reason as to why this banner would be useful is for missions. There are missions that require to get certain amount of banners, as it stands, BBs are the least capable for acquiring large numbers of badges. This would level the playing field for them potentially.

 

Visual:
As it stands, secondary shells look a lot dimmer then regular shells. A 155mm shell from a yamato looks half as bright as a 155 from a mogami. If secondary guns are going to be nothing more then light shows for some ships, then they actually should be light shows. I like to see my secondary shots, but as is I have to actually distract myself and focus on looking at them to see where they are going, are they hitting, etc. This should be remedied IMHO.



Ships I believe need secondary buffs.
Montana; 7km, (currently 5km)

-To help her compete against Yamato, since Montana does suffer compared to her. Aswell, Montana's secondaries are 127mm/54, her predecessors are 127mm/38 and yet montana's range is the same. This seems unrealistic upgrade-wise. (in regards to competition, Yamato's are 127mm/40)

Amagi, 6km, (currently 4.5)

-For progression and gameplay, the Amagi is a let down. All ships previous to her in the tech tree have increasingly good ranges on their secondary battery. Nagato is a highlight with her 5km range, with her 18x1-140mm(AP) guns and 4x2-127mm(HE) guns. The Amagi has 16x1-140mm(AP) guns and 8x2-127mm(HE) guns. Allthough it is true the Amagi is an upgrade for HE output, its completely nullified by the reduced range, and doesnt suit the progression system at all when you consider Izumo gets 7km. The Amagi's secondaries should actually be an upgrade, as is, due solely to the range loss, they are a downgrade despite the player moving up a tier from Nagato. 6km would flow the transition of Nagato to Amagi to Izumo.

Zao and Hindenburg, 5km, (currently 4.5km)
-Again, its the progression through the tech tree, the ships before her get 5km, and the when a player upgrades to Zao/Hindenburg, they lose range on secondaries. 4.5km is pretty useless at tier 10.

North Carolina/Iowa, 6km (Currently 5km)

-This would help flow the transition if Montana had 7km, plus, it would add the relevence of USN secondary gun builds. As is, it does feel unfair in that such builds are exclusive to the IJN. (Allthough the Tirpitz and Warspite suggests that there could be competition for secondary gun builds in those nations)
 

If there are ships that in particular you believe need buffs to secondary range, comment them and why!

If I could make only one single change, I would have the "Manual Control of Secondary Armament" skill also add a 30-50% range boost.

Comments, questions, suggestions, concerns? 

I run a duplicate thread in NA

[HMS_Worcester]

Range: 
As it stands, the range on secondary armaments is lack luster, and useless to 80% of the vessels in the game at the current moment. As it stands, even with buffing with skills and hardware, the only 2 ships in particular that can do secondary gun builds "well" is Izumo and Yamato.

 

I would add to that Warspite.

[CrniVrag]

 

I would add to that Warspite.

 

And Nagato....

 

EDIT: Also, why buff USN secondary range? USN has better AA, while IJN has better secondaries. If you buff USN secondaries the IJN loses their flavor...

[HMS_Worcester]

 

And Nagato....

 

And the Mikasa, seriously. Her secondaries are by far the best thing about her.

[SerPurr]

Great stuff. Kudos for writing this all up. Must have taken some.

Actually I reckon DD's should absolutely get murdered by BB's when in secondary range.

But this wouldn't be much fun.

Maybe:

 

1) New 1 point skill 'In secondary range warning'

2) DD's in secondary range get a grazing threshold (either fixed or dynamic by tier)

3) Upon reaching grazing threshold, DD's are considered no less no worse then anything else

 

The above not in any specific order or priority.

 

[Aotearas]

As it stands, the speed boost active skill doesn't give a real big effect. Sure, you are slightly faster while its active, but thats it aside from your camouflage nerf that temporarily occurs whilst it is used.

 

Afaik there is no more detectability debuff when using the Engine Boost ability.

 

An alternative solution could be an ability similar to Defensive AA Fire which boost secondary potency for battleships for a short duration

[HappyFella]

Anyone else see Flamu's video, Yamato Secondaries only v 10 St Louis iirc?

[Brokenstar]

 

I would add to that Warspite.

 

Done

 

And the Mikasa, seriously. Her secondaries are by far the best thing about her.

 

Eh, I didn't include her as she has so little equipment you don't really do a "secondary build" aside from anything her captain will add. Don't get me wrong, she does got good secondaries, still only 3km though

[CrniVrag]

 

Done

 

Eh, I didn't include her as she has so little equipment you don't really do a "secondary build" aside from anything her captain will add. Don't get me wrong, she does got good secondaries, still only 3km though

 

What about the Nagato? 7,6km secondaries with the right build....

[Brokenstar]

 

What about the Nagato? 7,6km secondaries with the right build....

 

Range-wise that isnt unique at tier 7. On Nagato its only particularly good because of her quantity of secondary firepower. I'll include her because I know she is a sweet spot, despite her leading onto the dis-appointment that the Amagi is with her 4.5km. (Which i did clearly review in the ships in particular that need buffs section of the article)

[CrniVrag]

 

Range-wise that isnt unique at tier 7. On Nagato its only particularly good because of her quantity of secondary firepower. I'll include her because I know she is a sweet spot, despite her leading onto the dis-appointment that the Amagi is with her 4.5km. (Which i did clearly review in the ships in particular that need buffs section of the article)

 

Well you forget the compromise between secondaries and AA, Amagi has awesome AA compared to the Nagato, thus the nerf in secondaries....

[RamirezKurita]

For the ship specific buffs, I have suggested before here that the secondary battery range should be dependent on the weapon, not the ship. This means that a 5"/38 secondary gun would function the same, regardless of whether it is on an Iowa or a Cleveland. This would actually allow far more differentiation between the roles of the heavier secondaries (140+mm) and the light HA/LA secondaries (76-133mm), as the heavy secondaries would have the range to engage cruisers while the lower calibres would still function as close range self defence against destroyers without creating a long range bubble of death around every capital ship with heavy secondaries. This would allow the Yamato and Izumo to have the range to skirmish with cruisers at longer ranges with their 155mm guns without their rapid firing 127mm guns preventing destroyers from entering their entire map quadrant. The Montana would enjoy range in between the Yamato's 127mm guns and 155mm guns.

 

An alternative that I have mentioned before for fixing secondary battery ranges is to separate secondary battery ranges into maximum range (which would be per-gun) and acquisition range (which would be per-ship like the current ranges). Under this setup, secondary batteries would open fire against anything within maximum range that is also within the acquisition range of any allied ship, allowing allies to extend secondary battery range up to a limit. This would encourage cruisers and destroyers to stay slightly ahead of battleships to make the most of their battleship's secondary batteries maximum ranges, while also letting battleships function as minor strongpoints that other ships could fall back to if they need covering fire. For example, a Yamato's 155mm guns might  have a secondary battery range of 14km or so (or whatever the Mogami's 155mm range is), but would still be limited by the acquisition range of 7km, so they would open fire on enemy ships that are within 14km of the Yamato and within 7-10.88 km (depending on skills and upgrades) of any allied ship (which could be the Yamato herself). This would strongly encourage teamplay and get destroyers and cruisers to do a bit more spotting when allied capital ships are around as they are almost guaranteed to receive supporting fire, while also preventing YOLO battleships from obliterating everything by themselves.

 

Some work could be done on the ammunition type on secondary guns. Currently, the heavier secondaries tend to use AP ammunition, which renders them largely useless against both destroyers and capital ships, while the lower calibres use HE shells which are useful against basically all targets. A reasonable solution would be to say that medium calibre secondaries use AP against cruisers and HE against all others, while low calibre secondaries would simply use HE against everything. High calibre secondaries of greater than 8" (which there are currently none in the game as they mostly appeared in the semidreadnought era, although some of the Kriegsmarine carrier designs had some very heavy secondaries) could be made to fire AP against everything except destroyers and carriers).

 

For manual secondary control, I feel that the skill has a few major flaws. Firstly, the skill creates a very artificial divide between T7+ and T6- due to the cutoff point and the numbers rendering the skill far less effective at lower tiers and so leaving all lower tier ships with woefully inaccurate secondaries; removing this artificial divide would instead make the skill more useful on a wider variety of ships and would make lower and middle tier ships that rely on secondaries actually useful. Secondly, the incredibly high value on the T7+ ships basically causes secondary batteries to be balanced around the skill and forcing them to be useless without it as the skill is so effective in this regard; if the skill didn't have such an incredibly high value then regular secondary accuracy could receive a buff and make secondaries actually useful without the skill. Thirdly, the extra limitation the skill places of requiring the manual targeting for the secondaries to actually shoot at all removes the advantage of fighting with enemies on both sides to make the most of all your secondaries, actively punishing players that attempt to make the most of their ship's guns; if the skill didn't remove the automatic fire (although automatic fire wouldn't get the accuracy bonus) or if it allowed secondaries to also fire on the ship's primary target, then secondary focused ships could once against brawl with enemies on both sides.

 

Another thing that I have suggested for secondary battery accuracy would be the concept of ranging shots. The first several salvos a secondary battery fires would have terrible accuracy, but the longer they remain on target the more accurate they become. This would prevent secondaries becoming instant death for anything getting close, but would begin to deal incredible damage if the brawl goes on for any length of time. With this change, Manual Secondary Control could be changed to "Secondary Battery Rangefinding", which would allow marked targets to be fired upon with maximum accuracy from the beginning.

[Brokenstar]

^not bothering quoting such a huge wall of text. But, for the most of it, I have to dis-agree entirely. Doing it that way would make BBs overpowered completely. For secondary guns, I really do not care  about historical accuracy on range.

 

Also, there is a mechanical reason with the games coding that restricts having multiple different firing ranges for secondaries, which is why all secondaries on any ship, regardless of size difference, fire at the same range. To change that would simply over-complicate things. That includes having them independantly change ammo type. Ammo type if you bothered reading my article is a serious balancer.

 

The way you got your solution worked, sounds like you want your secondaries to do the job for you. That is not at all what I wanted with my article, as is, aside from exceptional ships, secondaries do nothing, which I want remedied.

[RamirezKurita]

^not bothering quoting such a huge wall of text. But, for the most of it, I have to dis-agree entirely. Doing it that way would make BBs overpowered completely. For secondary guns, I really do not care  about historical accuracy on range.

 

Also, there is a mechanical reason with the games coding that restricts having multiple different firing ranges for secondaries, which is why all secondaries on any ship, regardless of size difference, fire at the same range. To change that would simply over-complicate things. That includes having them independantly change ammo type. Ammo type if you bothered reading my article is a serious balancer.

 

The way you got your solution worked, sounds like you want your secondaries to do the job for you. That is not at all what I wanted with my article, as is, aside from exceptional ships, secondaries do nothing, which I want remedied.

 

I wasn't expect all my suggestions to be implemented at once, as you said it would turn nearly all capital ships and several cruisers into unstoppable mobile fortresses.

 

The rework on ranges I suggested wasn't to be an overall buff to secondary guns, but would introduce an extra facet of commonality as weapon X would be weapon X, regardless of what ship it is on and make learning the game easier because then players don't have to get their head around different versions of each gun for each ship.

 

Currently, the IJN 127mm guns on the Kongo have a mere 4km range, while the Yamato has almost double the range at 7km on exactly the same guns, which makes very little sense as well as making the Yamato a veritable fortress with the massive range on these guns. If the IJN 127mm gun were to be put down to 5km range, for example, it would overall present a nerf to the low calibre secondaries on the Izumo and Yamato, but a buff to the secondaries on the Kongo, Fuso, Amagi, Zuiho, Ryujo, Hiryuu, Shokaku and probably some of the IJN cruisers (I can't remember their secondary battery ranges though). If we were to assume that the Yamato/Izumo/Nagato are what power level secondaries should be, then the Yamato and Izumo could have their 155mm guns increased in range to compensate and leave their overall secondary effectiveness at the same level, while the IJN 140mm guns could simply be kept at 5km which would keep the Nagato identical to it's current performance (and add half a km range to the Amagi, and likely make the Ise class a pretty solid brawler if/when they get added). If the IJN 100mm high velocity guns were to be given slightly better range than the old 127mm guns, around 5.5 or 6 km, then it would increase the range on the Zao as you wanted as well as the high tier IJN carriers.

 

For the USN ships under this suggestion, the Montana's 5"/54s would likely have a range of 6km, on the way towards what you suggested, which would present a buff to the Montana and the Midway (and whatever paper designs they eventually implement that use the 5"/54s). The USN 5"/38s would likely stay at 5km range, which would make most USN battleships stay the same but would buff some of their carriers and the Cleveland, if further buffs are necessary to USN secondaries then their fire rate could be increased to be closer to its historical level (which was notably higher than the IJN 127mm guns, but in game the IJN guns fire faster for some reason).

 

Many of the Kriegsmarine cruisers would benefit from such a set of changes, as they often have 150mm secondary guns, which would likely enjoy ranges comparable to the Yamato's 155mm guns, making secondary builds for them quite viable and increasing the number of ships that can benefit from secondary batteries rather than them having terrible range just because they are mounted on a cruiser.

 

Such a set of changes would achieve exactly what you wanted, giving buffs to the secondary ranges of ships that need it, while keeping the ships with already strong secondaries under control. Any issues regarding game coding can be fixed as we aren't talking about a group of modders with limited access here, we are talking about developers who can crack open and modify practically every aspect of the game as and when necessary.

 

Something to bear in mind with any increased ranges is the increased dispersion at those ranges. Considering the overall accuracy of secondaries at the moment, how they struggle to land hits on on enemies within a few km, any shooting using any range increases would mostly just be fireworks due to the increased dispersion. Another point that has already be brought up by Crni is the interaction between secondaries and AA, as most of the captain skills that affect one affects them both, an AA build for a captain would have all the secondary buffs except for manual control; as long as the AA and the secondaries add up to the same total and aren't completely skewed in a particular direction, the overlap will always make either build relevant.  Splitting the range of mixed secondary batteries would also make some of the heavy secondary reliant hulls better balanced and present more actual choice to the players, as currently players would swap heavy secondaries for an increased number of light secondaries without hesitation, but with split ranges they might decide that the additional range of the heavy secondaries is worth it compared to the number and RoF of the lighter guns; this also makes some of the ships with particularly heavy secondaries actually balancable, as once you get into 8" or larger secondaries they will require some very long ranges to work, but having extreme range little peashooters alongside them isn't easily balanced.

 

Ammo type is also why the IJN secondaries are incredibly ill suited for hunting destroyers and it makes the medium calibre secondaries useless on the Izumo and Yamato as they face cruisers that are armoured enough to resist them while destroyers are almost immune to them because of a lack of citadels. I find my secondaries in my Nagato to be far more effective at hunting cruisers than destroyers as the Nagato relies very heavily on the 140mm AP rounds (particularly as the cruisers at T5-7 tend to be quite light armoured, but they are still mostly useless against the T8-9 cruisers), I'd be much more willing to knife fight against a cruiser without my main batteries than to try to go destroyer hunting. While ammo type is a significant balance point, it also has a habit of rendering certain secondary guns into useless fireworks 95% of the time.

[SkybuckFlying]

Tactical solution for you:

 

Hide BB behind island. Surprise the [edited] out of the enemy ! LOL all the way ! =D

[Brokenstar]

 

I wasn't expect all my suggestions to be implemented at once, as you said it would turn nearly all capital ships and several cruisers into unstoppable mobile fortresses.

 

The rework on ranges I suggested wasn't to be an overall buff to secondary guns, but would introduce an extra facet of commonality as weapon X would be weapon X, regardless of what ship it is on and make learning the game easier because then players don't have to get their head around different versions of each gun for each ship.

 

Currently, the IJN 127mm guns on the Kongo have a mere 4km range, while the Yamato has almost double the range at 7km on exactly the same guns, which makes very little sense as well as making the Yamato a veritable fortress with the massive range on these guns. If the IJN 127mm gun were to be put down to 5km range, for example, it would overall present a nerf to the low calibre secondaries on the Izumo and Yamato, but a buff to the secondaries on the Kongo, Fuso, Amagi, Zuiho, Ryujo, Hiryuu, Shokaku and probably some of the IJN cruisers (I can't remember their secondary battery ranges though). If we were to assume that the Yamato/Izumo/Nagato are what power level secondaries should be, then the Yamato and Izumo could have their 155mm guns increased in range to compensate and leave their overall secondary effectiveness at the same level, while the IJN 140mm guns could simply be kept at 5km which would keep the Nagato identical to it's current performance (and add half a km range to the Amagi, and likely make the Ise class a pretty solid brawler if/when they get added). If the IJN 100mm high velocity guns were to be given slightly better range than the old 127mm guns, around 5.5 or 6 km, then it would increase the range on the Zao as you wanted as well as the high tier IJN carriers.

 

For the USN ships under this suggestion, the Montana's 5"/54s would likely have a range of 6km, on the way towards what you suggested, which would present a buff to the Montana and the Midway (and whatever paper designs they eventually implement that use the 5"/54s). The USN 5"/38s would likely stay at 5km range, which would make most USN battleships stay the same but would buff some of their carriers and the Cleveland, if further buffs are necessary to USN secondaries then their fire rate could be increased to be closer to its historical level (which was notably higher than the IJN 127mm guns, but in game the IJN guns fire faster for some reason).

 

Many of the Kriegsmarine cruisers would benefit from such a set of changes, as they often have 150mm secondary guns, which would likely enjoy ranges comparable to the Yamato's 155mm guns, making secondary builds for them quite viable and increasing the number of ships that can benefit from secondary batteries rather than them having terrible range just because they are mounted on a cruiser.

 

Such a set of changes would achieve exactly what you wanted, giving buffs to the secondary ranges of ships that need it, while keeping the ships with already strong secondaries under control. Any issues regarding game coding can be fixed as we aren't talking about a group of modders with limited access here, we are talking about developers who can crack open and modify practically every aspect of the game as and when necessary.

 

Something to bear in mind with any increased ranges is the increased dispersion at those ranges. Considering the overall accuracy of secondaries at the moment, how they struggle to land hits on on enemies within a few km, any shooting using any range increases would mostly just be fireworks due to the increased dispersion. Another point that has already be brought up by Crni is the interaction between secondaries and AA, as most of the captain skills that affect one affects them both, an AA build for a captain would have all the secondary buffs except for manual control; as long as the AA and the secondaries add up to the same total and aren't completely skewed in a particular direction, the overlap will always make either build relevant.  Splitting the range of mixed secondary batteries would also make some of the heavy secondary reliant hulls better balanced and present more actual choice to the players, as currently players would swap heavy secondaries for an increased number of light secondaries without hesitation, but with split ranges they might decide that the additional range of the heavy secondaries is worth it compared to the number and RoF of the lighter guns; this also makes some of the ships with particularly heavy secondaries actually balancable, as once you get into 8" or larger secondaries they will require some very long ranges to work, but having extreme range little peashooters alongside them isn't easily balanced.

 

Ammo type is also why the IJN secondaries are incredibly ill suited for hunting destroyers and it makes the medium calibre secondaries useless on the Izumo and Yamato as they face cruisers that are armoured enough to resist them while destroyers are almost immune to them because of a lack of citadels. I find my secondaries in my Nagato to be far more effective at hunting cruisers than destroyers as the Nagato relies very heavily on the 140mm AP rounds (particularly as the cruisers at T5-7 tend to be quite light armoured, but they are still mostly useless against the T8-9 cruisers), I'd be much more willing to knife fight against a cruiser without my main batteries than to try to go destroyer hunting. While ammo type is a significant balance point, it also has a habit of rendering certain secondary guns into useless fireworks 95% of the time.

 

I completely and utterly dis-agree with the same weapon having the same range regardless of the ship it is attached to. That isn't balance, that's looking for consistency for consistency sake. You can't make a weapon effective at one tier and have it retain the same stats when its on a much lower tiered ship and still be balanced. 

 

As for the whole idea that WG could implement the range differences within the same vessel. No, just no. That would require even more additional server traffic load. They didnt just do it the way they did on that technical capabilities standpoint for no reason, far in the future? perhaps, but don't assume that such a mechanical difference can be just switched on.

[HMS_Worcester]

 

Done - Thanks

 

Eh, I didn't include her as she has so little equipment you don't really do a "secondary build" aside from anything her captain will add. Don't get me wrong, she does got good secondaries, still only 3km though - Yep, fair enough

 

Also, unrelated to this topic, but I like your idea of HMS Canada as a premium. She is a really nice looking ship.

[Spuggy]

One of the problems I have with the secondaries is the skill system right now.

 

I think it's a bit silly to lump both AA power and secondary power into the same skills. This ends up making it all a bit more bland when it comes to captains.

 

Currently I like piling my skill points on BB's, no matter what nation they are from, into secondary armament skills.

Why?

Well because it buffs so much about the BB that it's silly not to.

If you want better AA you buff secondaries at the same time

If you want better secondaries, guess what, you end up buffing your AA too.

 

Granted, to fully specialise you need to use ship upgrades too but I feel the skills need to be massively reworked to allow for super specialised setups.

[Lemasive]

I think I have something like 101 CQE in 1000 games, this is due to my playstyle and having played mostly BBs. While I enjoy the skill, it needs to be tweaked abit to become more effective. The secondaries are useless against other BBS and some Cruisers and that is how it should be, yes they can lit up a ship on fire once in every 2nd red moon but that point of the secondaries is to make DDs and weak armored cruisers to think twice before attacking a BB  at close range. Currently the velocity and aiming of the secondaries even with the captain skill is quite easy to avoid in most ships. I've rushed several Yamatos on open water with my Atago and sunk them because their main gun cant take me down and the secondaries while annoying will not do enough damage to make any real difference. 

 

The secondaries should manily be a effective shield against smaller ships rushing the BB to get easy torps of and today that is hardly the case. Imho the Secondaries especially with the skill should rather work as a Dot with crit change then a 100% RNG based "if the ships keeps moving in this direction that is where the secondaries aim" kind of thing. 

[Brokenstar]

If I were able to change one thing, it would be to give the manual control of secondary armament skill an extra 30% bonus to gun range. As is, the skill somewhat doesnt entirely feel its worth 5 skill points, and this change alone would make secondary gun builds a far more viable option to really any battleship with a captain with this skill. this would mean a secondary build captain by himself gives a 50% range bonus, which is plenty for any ship IMHO. 

 

Modules plus a captain would give a bonus of 70% total, example, Montana, or any other ship that has 5km range, would then have 8.5km. Thats a workable, us-able range that isnt so suicidal to use.

[Nechrom]

There is only one reason why I'm hesitant to buff secondaries in any way, and that is because they are AI controlled. Having to select a target doesn't really change this.

I would be okay with offering more options for doing a secondaries build, like skills at more tiers and secondaries upgrades starting at lower tiers (for Mikasa etc).

 

In any case, I feel that if you're expecting your secondaries to be your ships main focus when you build around them, then you're not really getting their purpose.

I have a Nagato built around secondaries, but all that does is give me an edge in close range combat and that's exactly what I'm looking for. They add a bit of extra dps and can really mess up DDs if they decide to stay around for too long. They also do a good job of finishing off enemies between main gun salvos if they are left with a sliver of health.

[KarmaQU_EU]

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/46792-secondary-armaments-in-game-with-poll/page__fromsearch__1

 

Many possible tactical changes were considered. WG had a very good solution as well, which was increasing secondary survivability.

[Brokenstar]

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/46792-secondary-armaments-in-game-with-poll/page__fromsearch__1

 

Many possible tactical changes were considered. WG had a very good solution as well, which was increasing secondary survivability.

 

Survivability is not really an issue I think. Only the USN secondaries I find are particularly weak in that regard.

[Latur_Husky]

best way to fix issue with secondaties is to give controll over them to the player. thats it. same with aa guns.

[1MajorKoenig]

It is really sad but secondaries are simply a joke. I understand the reasons behind that by I don't like it.

 

I would vote for manually controlled secondaries. WG can still use RNG to prevent them from being OP but at least this option would add

 

- diversity in gameplay

- a little additional skill needed (Switch guns & timing)

- make secondaries half way useful

 

What do you guys think?