Invisible DD's - Cant kill em!

[BillAndrex]

What is peoples views towards DDs? These little critters are fun to play make no mistake but it incredibly frustrating to play against as they are impossible to spot. On a nice clear day I can see 20-32km, if a small boat can be seen easily at 6km I'd be damn sure to be able to spot a ship such as a DD... except in-game.

 

First I know about it is a wall of torps & a hard over on the rudder, seriously what's the story about that, is the whole crew aboard my ship on the Vodka? I think DDs need to be balanced as their concealment looks to be unbalanced at higher tiers for sure. I can't fight what I can't see, I'd suggest that this could be compensated so that shell damage against a DD is reduced keeping the DD in the fight and CL's and BB's with half a shout.

 

What do you other players think?

[ColonelPete]

In general, no problem.

Some DD can be seen before becoming a threat.

Maybe you should supply more specific information to your problem.

[peoplescavalry]

It's a game and the only way DDs can survive is the cloaking device, otherwise they would be massacred and no one would play them. Still hate them though!

[N00b32]

What do you other players think?

 

Much nope. Reduced damage against dds will make you even cry more, when a DD steams in your secondaries, doesn't care and torps you do death. 

[HMS_Worcester]

I don't really like playing DDs (Clemson is kind of fun) but I have no problem facing them.

[Blue_Bug]

What is peoples views towards DDs? These little critters are fun to play make no mistake but it incredibly frustrating to play against as they are impossible to spot. On a nice clear day I can see 20-32km, if a small boat can be seen easily at 6km I'd be damn sure to be able to spot a ship such as a DD... except in-game.

 

First I know about it is a wall of torps & a hard over on the rudder, seriously what's the story about that, is the whole crew aboard my ship on the Vodka? I think DDs need to be balanced as their concealment looks to be unbalanced at higher tiers for sure. I can't fight what I can't see, I'd suggest that this could be compensated so that shell damage against a DD is reduced keeping the DD in the fight and CL's and BB's with half a shout.

 

What do you other players think?

 

On tier 2-9 there is no problem. If you know there is a DD somewhere :

BB or CV - sail away in the oposite direction

CA - Play agresive and move into the direction of the DD

DD- depends on the DD

If you have a fighter on board : launch it.

[IamTroublemaker]

On a clear day you might see a huge spaceship from 20-32 km as a small dot. At 10 km away you probably wouldnt be able to recognize if its a BB/CA or a DD (especially if you are near sighted like me ). Anyway, this is an arcade game, not a simulation. The mechanics we got in this game are here for balance reasons, and if DDs would get insta spotted from, lets say 10 km away, they would be completely UP.

 

What you need to do against a DD that is shooting at you from his smoke is either turn away or torp the spot where shells are coming from.

[XbodzioXplX]

I think players are so scared of torps that when they fell a DD around they flee - but agresive fight with them is only thing you could do 

And to swim towards a DD is the best strategy (even better then course changing) I think.

[BillAndrex]

 

On tier 2-9 there is no problem. If you know there is a DD somewhere :

BB or CV - sail away in the oposite direction

CA - Play agresive and move into the direction of the DD

DD- depends on the DD

If you have a fighter on board : launch it.

Tier 10 DD's are a problem when they can launch torps at a BB without fear of being spotted.

[ShockPirat]

Tier 10 DD's are a problem when they can launch torps at a BB without fear of being spotted.

 

1. Your team's DDs aren't doing their main job (spotting enemy DDs)

2. Don't sail in a straight line

3. Long range torping is getting serious nerfs next patch

[EdiJo]

 

1. Your team's DDs aren't doing their main job (spotting enemy DDs)

2. Don't sail in a straight line

3. Long range torping is getting serious nerfs next patch

 

1. In like ~2/3 random games DD are not "doing their job" ;)  - so let's just assume they typically don't.

2. It doesn't matter much when even Tier 8 DD can launch wall of torps with 15km range, and each single hit can easily cost 50% of your cruiser life...

3. can you point me to the info about that please?

 

[MudMonkey]

I guess we are not talking about RU DDs here, right?

 

[ColonelPete]

 

1. In like ~2/3 random games DD are not "doing their job" ;)  - so let's just assume they typically don't.

2. It doesn't matter much when even Tier 8 DD can launch wall of torps with 15km range, and each single hit can easily cost 50% of your cruiser life...

3. can you point me to the info about that please?

 

 

2: It does, otherwise DD would sink ships with every torpedo salvo.

[EdiJo]

 

2: It does, otherwise DD would sink ships with every torpedo salvo.

 

Nope. Besides, there is a difference between "not going in straight line" and turning perpendicularly showing perfect broadside to DD's team.  

And to avoid torps shot (or possibly shot...) from 90deg angle, you have to turn that 90 deg.  Not 30.

In a battleship you have to turn towards approximate DD location even before any torps are used, when you see torps is just too late. 

One little Fubuki can cause whole BB/CA fleet to (continuously) expose their broadsides... which typically ends with multiple  from enemy BB/CA.

And there is zero skill in this - he just sits undetected and periodically, blindly spams torps in wide spread. Sometimes 1-shots a DD, sometimes takes 50% from a CA, just pure RNG.

In contrast to this zero skill single ship, to counter him you need perfect (so - very rare in a random game...) cooperation of skilled multiple ships: spotting/killing CV, and/or brave cruiser/gunboat DD to fend off the stalker (and again, to charge the DD you have to take risk and go in torps direction, exposing broadside - cruisers don't like to do that ). This is heavily unbalanced.

And I don't even talk here about stealth HE spamming (which fortunately only starts from T9...) 

[ColonelPete]

You do not even need to turn.

Just stop your engines from time to time.

 

And if you think evading does not help much, then do not do it.

But we should make sure that you do not get on my team.

[ShockPirat]

 

Nope. Besides, there is a difference between "not going in straight line" and turning perpendicularly showing perfect broadside to DD's team.  

And to avoid torps shot (or possibly shot...) from 90deg angle, you have to turn that 90 deg.  Not 30.

In a battleship you have to turn towards approximate DD location even before any torps are used, when you see torps is just too late. 

One little Fubuki can cause whole BB/CA fleet to (continuously) expose their broadsides... which typically ends with multiple  from enemy BB/CA.

And there is zero skill in this - he just sits undetected and periodically, blindly spams torps in wide spread. Sometimes 1-shots a DD, sometimes takes 50% from a CA, just pure RNG.

In contrast to this zero skill, to counter him you need perfect (so - very rare in a random game...) cooperation of all team: spotting/killing CV, and/or brave cruiser/gunboat DD to fend off the stalker (and again, to charge the DD you have to go in torps direction, exposing broadside). This is heavily unbalanced.

And I don't even talk here about stealth HE spamming (which fortunately only starts from T9...) 

 

Duh? That's called teamwork. Do you know what happens when both teams play good and nothing forces ships to show side? First deaths happen 8-5 minutes before the 20 min mark. Never had that happen? I have.

If it's so skill-less, how come many DDs suck in random games? They don't even try to get to position that would force enemy to show side.

[AgarwaenME]

 

Nope. Besides, there is a difference between "not going in straight line" and turning perpendicularly showing perfect broadside to DD's team.  

And to avoid torps shot (or possibly shot...) from 90deg angle, you have to turn that 90 deg.  Not 30.

In a battleship you have to turn towards approximate DD location even before any torps are used, when you see torps is just too late. 

One little Fubuki can cause whole BB/CA fleet to (continuously) expose their broadsides... which typically ends with multiple  from enemy BB/CA.

And there is zero skill in this - he just sits undetected and periodically, blindly spams torps in wide spread.

In contrast to this zero skill, to counter him you need perfect cooperation of all team: spotting/killing CV, and/or brave cruiser/gunboat DD to fend off the stalker. This is heavily unbalanced.

And I don't even talk here about stealth HE spamming (which fortunately only starts from T9...) 

 

About everything you claim here is wrong.

 

Torps takes minutes to get to a target from those ranges, and neither do you need to angle 90' to avoid them, merely slowing down or speeding up (or a turn that would do the same relative to the path of the torps) easily does the same.

 

And if you think DDs just sits stills and "blindly spams wide spreads" then you do not understand torps rate of fire (which if you would call "spam" then what would you call a BBs guns which fire similar damage shells at a far greater rate.. megaspam maybe?). To actually land hits (and also to play your ship to its full capacity) you need to get close, both to actually have much chance of landing hits (as long range launches makes it incredibly likely that your target will make some random adjustment for whatever reason that puts your torps way off their mark), and to spot and engage enemy DDs. Comparing that to the skill requirement of sitting at 15km+ and just megaspamming AP shells with an incredibly high skill skill floor, and as incredibly low skill ceiling, is just laughable.

 

 

P.S Stealth firing HE starts much much before T9, but then BBs can fire from beyond the ranges (ie complete immunity) of other ship classes from t4, so your point is what?

[EdiJo]

You do not even need to turn.

Just stop your engines from time to time.

 

And if you think evading does not help much, then do not do it.

But we should make sure that you do not get on my team.

You need to turn, or you accept to eat 1-2 torps (20-50k HP what means sinking sometimes) every few minutes, for nothing, from a noob who just once discovered he can sneak and blindly torp.

"Stopping engines" is not enough, because stalker is not targeting you - he just shoots in general direction of the pushing fleet.

 

Evading helps against torps, but then you show broadside to enemy heavies, and ... kaboom.

Seen that many times (from both sides ;) ) 

[AgarwaenME]

You need to turn, or you accept to eat 1-2 torps (20-50k HP what means sinking sometimes) every few minutes, for nothing, from a noob who just once discovered he can sneak and blindly torp.

"Stopping engines" is not enough, because stalker is not targeting you - he just shoots in general direction of the pushing fleet.

 

Evading helps against torps, but then you show broadside to enemy heavies, and ... kaboom.

Seen that many times (from both sides ;) ) 

 

Sorry, but if you're in any DD that can do 20k damage in one torp, then you're not a "noob".

 

But if you think you can do 20k damage with torps at t4., then maybe you are.

 

Also, if you use that word at all, then you might also be 12 years old, but that by itself just shows you're immature.

 

Also, sure a DD can make you turn and show your broadside, so will also a BB (or CA in some situations, but BBs have a much easier time to force this, and to exploit it), .. which another "so their team played well together, so effing what?"

 

(I mean, if any "noob" can easily do that, then why can't you do more damage in what very likely is the best DD tier for tier, and one of the best period, the Minekaze, than either of your BBs at that tier? Seems it's more likely that some "noob" discovered he could sit from relative safety and megaspam AP shells while taking a long time to get sunk just from all his passive, no skill requirement, defensive abilities.)

[ColonelPete]

You said: "Nope"

 

And if torpedos are not aimed, the chances of hitting someone by accident is rather low.

The high tier maps are rather big.

Unless you insist on sailing through well known torpedo alleys.

[EdiJo]

 

About everything you claim here is wrong.

 

Torps takes minutes to get to a target from those ranges, and neither do you need to angle 90' to avoid them, merely slowing down or speeding up (or a turn that would do the same relative to the path of the torps) easily does the same.

 

You talk about torps which are targeted at YOU. I talk about torps shot in a wide spread in hope someone will get into them. It is like going through multiple rail tracks - you never know on which track the train will go, until it is too close 

 

And if you think DDs just sits stills and "blindly spams wide spreads" then you do not understand torps rate of fire (which if you would call "spam" then what would you call a BBs guns which fire similar damage shells at a far greater rate.. megaspam maybe?). To actually land hits (and also to play your ship to its full capacity) you need to get close, both to actually have much chance of landing hits (as long range launches makes it incredibly likely that your target will make some random adjustment for whatever reason that puts your torps way off their mark), and to spot and engage enemy DDs. Comparing that to the skill requirement of sitting at 15km+ and just megaspamming AP shells with an incredibly high skill skill floor, and as incredibly low skill ceiling, is just laughable.

 

 

BB shell hits one single range (+/- RNG). A torpedo hits everything in range between min and max. It makes a difference bigger than rate of fire.

Plus, AP shell doesn't cause "damage over time" like torpedo does.

By "sitting still" I meant staying in one area - you don't have to stop the ship to fire torpedoes, right?

 

 P.S Stealth firing HE starts much much before T9, 

 

Below T9 it is not so frequent and dangerous. 

 

 but then BBs can fire from beyond the ranges (ie complete immunity) of other ship classes from t4, so your point is what?

 

what "immunity"? Your BB can hit him back, he is visible after firing his guns.

 

[AgarwaenME]

 

You talk about torps which are targeted at YOU. I talk about torps shot in a wide spread in hope someone will get into them. It is like going through multiple rail tracks - you never know on which track the train will go, until it is too close 

 

 

BB shell hits one single range (+/- RNG). A torpedo hits everything in range between min and max. It makes a difference bigger than rate of fire.

Plus, AP shell doesn't cause "damage over time" like torpedo does.

By "sitting still" I meant staying in one area - you don't have to stop the ship to fire torpedoes, right?

 

 

Below T9 it is not so frequent and dangerous. 

 

 

what "immunity"? Your BB can hit him back, he is visible after firing his guns.

 

 

If someone just widely disperses torps like that, then the spaces are so wide you do not ever need to turn 90' to avoid them. as there will be yamato sized distances between each from long range.

 

And no, BBs have longer range, and an absurdly much higher rate of fire (if you want to compare like that) with travel times of a few seconds.

 

And sorry, did you just say that a torpedo hits "everything in range"? Do you not realise that torps explodes on impact? They don't burrow through ships or islands to hit something behind. Nor does torps cause "damage over time", flooding does, which can be repaired. Nor does it matter if there's damage over time, when AP shells infact does a lot more damage to ships in game, both on a total level, and on a ship per ship level.

 

And on stealth fire, it's just as common below t9 (more even if you just count ships that can do it) and in those tiers those low calibre HE shells does far more relative damage. Stealth fire actually becomes far less important in higher tiers as those ships that can do it gets good torps to use against those targets.

 

And again, try to read. a BB is completely immune to other NON-BBs when firing from beyond their max range (and in many cases that also means some other BBs, especially in the low-mid ranges where USN is well behind IJN BBs both in range and speed). And that's beside the BBs huge passive (and low to no skill requirement) defenses.

[Capra76]

 

1. Your team's DDs aren't doing their main job (spotting enemy DDs)

 

 

......how come many DDs suck in random games? They don't even try to get to position that would force enemy to show side.

 

Erm, which is it?  

 

The DD can either screen the fleet to spot DD and torpedoes or they can be in a position that would force the enemy to show side, they cannot be in both positions simultaneously.

[EdiJo]

 

If someone just widely disperses torps like that, then the spaces are so wide you do not ever need to turn 90' to avoid them. as there will be yamato sized distances between each from long range.

 

 

You don't know whether you have to turn, or not. You don't know on which track the train will go, until it is too late. Battleship will not slow down/speed up fast enough...

So - you have to turn.

 

 

And no, BBs have longer range, and an absurdly much higher rate of fire (if you want to compare like that) with travel times of a few seconds.

 

 

 

Not 'a few seconds', but several. Long enough to miss any ship which even slightly changes speed/direction. To avoid a torp, you have to work a bit harder ;)

 

 And sorry, did you just say that a torpedo hits "everything in range"? Do you not realise that torps explodes on impact? They don't burrow through ships or islands to hit something behind. Nor does torps cause "damage over time", flooding does, which can be repaired. Nor does it matter if there's damage over time, when AP shells infact does a lot more damage to ships in game, both on a total level, and on a ship per ship level.

 

Why do you pretend to not understand? Of course islands are a problem, but they are problem to artillery, too. Terrain elevations on most maps are rather not realistic ;)

And yes, torpedo causes flooding, so torpedo causes damage over time. Yes, it can be repaired, but only once per few minutes, and the repair has to be used against all other sources of damage over time, too - so one torp can quite easily cause more than 20k damage if causes flooding on a ship which just extinguished fires after dive bomb attack or cruiser HE spam, for example.

Generally, if you draw "possible hit spots" along trajectory of a shell and that of a torpedo, you will have much higher chance of being randomly hit by a torpedo. 

 

 And again, try to read. a BB is completely immune to other NON-BBs when firing from beyond their max range (and in many cases that also means some other BBs, especially in the low-mid ranges where USN is well behind IJN BBs both in range and speed). And that's beside the BBs huge passive (and low to no skill requirement) defenses.

 

Try to read, too... There are other ships on the map besides DD and BB, and forcing BB to expose to other ships can be counted as indirectly causing the damage to that BB. I hope that, for example, WG introduces 'spotting exp' for that (fraction of exp gained from dmg caused by ship which would not detect target without help).

 

 And that's beside the BBs huge passive (and low to no skill requirement) defenses.

 

Huge HP pool and armor is a compensation for low maneuverability. Anyway, few torps and citadells eat that faster than a CA can sink DD...

 

 

[AgarwaenME]

 

You don't know whether you have to turn, or not. You don't know on which track the train will go, until it is too late. Battleship will not slow down/speed up fast enough...

So - you have to turn.

 

 

Not 'a few seconds', but several. Long enough to miss any ship which even slightly changes speed/direction. To avoid a torp, you have to work a bit harder ;)

 

 

Why do you pretend to not understand? Of course islands are a problem, but they are problem to artillery, too. Terrain elevations on most maps are rather not realistic ;)

And yes, torpedo causes flooding, so torpedo causes damage over time. Yes, it can be repaired, but only once per few minutes, and the repair has to be used against all other sources of damage over time, too - so one torp can quite easily cause more than 20k damage if causes flooding on a ship which just extinguished fires after dive bomb attack or cruiser HE spam, for example.

Generally, if you draw "possible hit spots" along trajectory of a shell and that of a torpedo, you will have much higher chance of being randomly hit by a torpedo. 

 

 

Try to read, too... There are other ships on the map besides DD and BB, and forcing BB to expose to other ships can be counted as indirectly causing the damage to that BB. I hope that, for example, WG introduces 'spotting exp' for that (fraction of exp gained by dmg caused by ship which would not detect target without help).

 

 

Huge HP pool and armor is a compensation for low maneuverability. Anyway, few torps and citadells eat that faster than a CA can sink DD...

 

 

 

Oh lawl, "I can't imagine any other way, so I need to do it this way". The real fact is, merely not sailing straight for minutes with no changes to speed and direction is what's needed to continually eat torps. No, you don't know where torps might come from, but here's a hint, DDs will fire them at actual ships, not blindly into water. Don't sail in a huge pile of ships, and don't be incredibly predictable.

 

And to say you need to work harder to avoid torps, which takes MINUTES to hit, than a shell that takes SECONDS, is just ridiculous. Do you even understand how time works? That minutes are longer than seconds? Shell travel times are just as short and usually shorter than even time from minimum detection of torps (as in, you're sailing with no cover from DDs) to hit, than a shell from 15-20km to hit. And that's besides how if you just tapped any speed or direction key every 30 seconds you'd not be where those torps where anyways.

 

As for hit chances. FACTS just speaks for themselves, torpedoes have a fraction of the hit rates of shells. End of story.

 

Also, again, try to read instead of just parroting me, yes turning to avoid torps can make you show your broadside, so does OTHER SHELLS, as can turning to avoid shells cause you to eat torps. You're just cherry picking one scenario to suit your bias.

 

And duh, yes, armour and HP is a BBs defense mechanics, which is just what I said (point remains though, that there's no skill required in having that, as it's mostly passive, unlike a DD who needs far more map awareness and game knowledge to avoid detection and a lot higher skill in turning and watching shells to survive getting away while under fire). But to claim it's faster for a BB to die from citadels than a CA killing a DD is just laughable.