Latest CV win rates are nasty reading

[gr0pah]

I was bopping about on warships.today, just checking random stats, when I decided to look at CV WR. What I found absolutely dropped my jaw. 

 

 

USN CV isn't even competing. Look at that inverse WR for USN CV! It's a perfect sorting from T4-10; the higher the tier, the worse they get! There's an 11% WR difference between Haku and Miday... That's absurdly high. 

 

NA server:

 

 

 

RU server:

(boss Essex)

 

 

ASIA server:

 

In my opinion, USN CV are fine - if a bit RNG based - against ships, but they get totally outplayed by equal skill IJN CV in the air. And according to global CV stats this seems to be very much the case.

 

Again, look at this:

Am I reading this incorrectly? Is the sample size too low? Or is there something fundamentally wrong with CV nation balance?

[S4h3L]

CVs are perfectly balanced, nothing to see here move along citizens

[gr0pah]

CVs are perfectly balanced, nothing to see here move along citizens

 

I'd laugh if I wasn't so flabbergasted. And bewildered. Also disgusted. 

 

EDIT: Not counting the Saipan, there's exactly two USN CV that has a higher WR than any IJN CV - on all four servers. Or the other way around: IJN CV has higher WR than USN in 24 out of 26 possible instances. 

 

EDIT2: The 10 worst WR of all ships on server:

Yes, 4 out of the 10 worst WR ships in the entire game is USN CV. You know you have it rough when you're worse than the Derpzki.

 

10 highest WR on server, not counting premiums (Grem, AB, Fujin, Imperator etc) or T1:

4 out of 10 [disregard Erie, as per above] highest WR ships is IJN CV...

 

[Takru]

So what's the solution?  AS Midway?

[gr0pah]

So what's the solution?  AS Midway?

 

Anything but status quo.

[Ishiro32]

I am more shocked that you noticed it just now.

I mean US line always was considered worse than IJN with the only exception being Midway and Essex during their prime time.
I mean why do you think I have created this topic? 

I mean did you ever talk about US CVs with top players? People call Saipan gimmick ship, but in truth most of the US line are gimmick ships with Ranger, Lexi, Bogue being prime examples.

Whole line lacks consistent theme, main mechanic and calm tier to tier progression. Most of the ships in that line have glaring design issues like Langley being first ship in line, but at the same time very hard to use, but when used correctly it's pretty much OP, those are not characteristics of a training ship.

 

It's pretty much like that

IJN were WG focus since release as it were the carriers that were creating most problems. Changes impacted mostly them and after long time they are in decent spot in terms of balance and consistency and theme.
USN was left in the dust. They perform worse, are inconsistent and their theme is all over the place.

 

There is no Nation balance for CVs. 

Also design wise, do not put Saipan on the USN side, it's actually hyper IJN carrier.
 

 

[Gojuadorai]

So what's the solution?  

 

Remove CV'S from the game (and put them into world of warplanes) 

[Enkidu69]

I think the main reason is many players using the anti-AA loadout on US CV's. It's literally worthless unless you use it to scout properly. If you are in a US CV and hunt enemy planes it means that if enemy CV hits with just one torpedo he did more to win that game than you did.

[ShockPirat]

I think the main reason is many players using the anti-AA loadout on US CV's. It's literally worthless unless you use it to scout properly. If you are in a US CV and hunt enemy planes it means that if enemy CV hits with just one torpedo he did more to win that game than you did.

 

That doesn't explain Midway. Not many people use AS at tier 10.

 

Before Essex/Midway rebalance, the "theme" of USN CVs was that they were specialists, while IJN were Jack of all trades. By loadouts, USN was very good in its primary and bad in its secondary role (strike USN was very good at strike but sucked at fighters. Vice versa for air superiority). By loadouts IJN was pretty good in its primary role and still okay in secondary (strike IJN was a bit worse at strike than strike USN but much better at fighters because of fighter mechanics).

 

For air superiority, USN AS really isn't that much better than IJN in the air at most tiers, while it's strike capability sucks. IJN AS strike capability is miles ahead. One could even argue Haku AS is better in the air than Midway AS (more fighter squads).

 

Also, Air Supremacy skill makes a bigger difference for IJN.

 

Then the USN and dive bomber rebalance came. Now strike USN and strike IJN damage potential is about them same, but IJN does most of the damage by reliable torp bombers while USN relies on very RNG dive bombers. And strike IJN is still better at fighters than strike USN because of fighter mechanics (can lock down single USN bomber with one fighter squad and attack bombers with the other).

 

And now WG is giving carriers DF and making IJN DF better, even though ship AA was supposed to be USN thing... I can't really comment on CV DF since I haven't tested it on public test server, but making it bring up IJN AA to USN level just doesn't seem fair when you take other IJN advantages into account.

 

The only advantage Midway has over Haku is bigger plane reserves and less dispersion when attacking under DF (worse than it seems, since planes die like flies under cruiser DF). Haku and Midway ship AA is very comparable. Plane reserves will come into play only in very long attrition matches, and Midway itself can't actually shoot down that many of Haku's planes if Haku is playing smart.

[Dar_Raksada]

I think the main reason is many players using the anti-AA loadout on US CV's. It's literally worthless unless you use it to scout properly. If you are in a US CV and hunt enemy planes it means that if enemy CV hits with just one torpedo he did more to win that game than you did.

 

It explains things for lower tiers, as I'm going up through the US cv line now (am at t9 on IJN cvs) I feel like U.S. cvs are much stronger. If you look at, say, the independence's avg damage per game it's 29,492 server average, which is terrible. I'm getting 60,539.13 avg damage with stock (1-1-1) setup.

 

For higher tiers cv sniping might have something to do with it? IJN has more fighters in their non-aa setups, so they might have an easier time defending against first strikes, as well as being able to carry them out more reliably. The new aa barrage for cvs might change it.

 

Overall these numbers are very surprising, but can someone tell me how it's possible the winrates between same-tier cvs don't end up as 50%? Because of mirror matchmaking every t4 cv match should have the same number of t4 cvs, and the winrate should balance out then?

[Ishiro32]

Overall these numbers are very surprising, but can someone tell me how it's possible the winrates between same-tier cvs don't end up as 50%? Because of mirror matchmaking every t4 cv match should have the same number of t4 cvs, and the winrate should balance out then?

 

There are 3 players

One played 100 games, half against second and half against third. He won all giving him 100% winratio while other two have 0% winratio.

 

Avg winratio of ship is 50%, but avg winratio of the players is 33%.

 

The data we have is based on the flat winratio of people and does not include weight.

[AgarwaenME]

"We told you so"

 

That will be all.

[RichardNixon]

On skill & grind adjusted solo data it's much closer, with the Essex and Midway well ahead of the Taiho and Hakuryu. IJN carriers lead from tier 4-8, with the Zuiho miles ahead of the Bogue.

 

I'm not sure what the cause of the error is here. I only use players with >1k battles and the skill adjustment is minimal. Maybe the USN carriers have much worse grinds. Maybe they're far more popular with carrier newbies on EU. Maybe those raw EU stats are dominated by carrier bots.

 

[gr0pah]

On skill & grind adjusted solo data it's much closer, with the Essex and Midway well ahead of the Taiho and Hakuryu. IJN carriers lead from tier 4-8, with the Zuiho miles ahead of the Bogue.

 

I'm not sure what the cause of the error is here. I only use players with >1k battles and the skill adjustment is minimal. Maybe the USN carriers have much worse grinds. Maybe they're far more popular with carrier newbies on EU. Maybe those raw EU stats are dominated by carrier bots.

 

Sorry I'm not really following you here regarding Essex and Midway. To me those two ships seems to have it worst of the entire bunch, with 10% and 11% respectively lower WR than their IJN counterparts.

 

Also, how common are CV bots at T8+ really? 

[gr0pah]

Overall these numbers are very surprising, but can someone tell me how it's possible the winrates between same-tier cvs don't end up as 50%? Because of mirror matchmaking every t4 cv match should have the same number of t4 cvs, and the winrate should balance out then?

 

See what Ishiro32 wrote. But I think you looking at it from the wrong angle. If there was only IJN CV, then IJN CV would always have 50% WR. But as they can meet USN CV, and win over them far more often than they lose (i.e., they can carry the team/positively impact the match much more reliably than USN) the WR of IJN CV is higher. A lot higher.

[OVanBruce]

Perhaps the real good players migrated from the Midway/Essex to Taihou/Hakuryuu after the USN CV line rework? Can't reallly coment though, since the only one I own from the bunch is Essex.

[Gojuadorai]

Perhaps the real good players migrated from the Midway/Essex to Taihou/Hakuryuu after the USN CV line rework? 

 

 

but that would mean the same thing 

because really good players tend to play the stronger ships....

[RichardNixon]

Sorry I'm not really following you here regarding Essex and Midway. To me those two ships seems to have it worst of the entire bunch, with 10% and 11% respectively lower WR than their IJN counterparts.

 

Well, raw winrates are trash and should never be used to compare ship balance. These results are unusually far off, however, and I'm not sure why. I do use 10-12 week data rather than 1-week data, so it might be a very recent player population effect.

 

Also, how common are CV bots at T8+ really? 

 

Well, those CV bots play around 750-1000 battles per week and they've been running for four weeks. Not sure how much XP they make per battle

 

Once the bots reach tier 10, one assumes they get ebayed to players who have no idea how to play tier 10 carriers.

 

[gr0pah]

Perhaps the real good players migrated from the Midway/Essex to Taihou/Hakuryuu after the USN CV line rework? Can't reallly coment though, since the only one I own from the bunch is Essex.

 

If the good players switch to IJN because IJN are stronger, that would help explain the 11% difference in WR between Haku and Midway. It however only, and sadly, proves the point that IJN is stronger.

[OVanBruce]

 

If the good players switch to IJN because IJN are stronger, that would help explain the 11% difference in WR between Haku and Midway. It however only, and sadly, proves the point that IJN is stronger.

 

I'd argue that Essex/Midway are still quite strong thanks to the 1000 pound bombs and their superior numbers but they are less polivalent. USN CVs also got hit by the boredom that are dive bombers on their current state which make then almost skillless, at least on how to drop then.

 

Then again, I'm not a CV optimate

Spoiler

I still get a very high winrate and decent damage on my Essex though.

 

 

[SkybuckFlying]

It's probably spotting range... japan carriers can hide more easy and thus fear less from ships ! ;) and seem to be faster too to some degree ! ;) So simply more escaping I guess.

[gr0pah]

That's actually a good point in itself. The massive spotting range of USN CV doesn't help them in any way. 

[kfa]

It might not be very contructive but i really enjoy seeing these numbers, because for many month i was unable to play my Hakuryu. Midway was so much stronger, i couldnt even stop them deleting me with my fighters parked on top of my carrier, the torpedo bombers just ignored them and dropped anyways.

 

Oh well, its Hakuryu time, until they f*** the balance once more.

[Domin1c]

That's actually a good point in itself. The massive spotting range of USN CV doesn't help them in any way. 

 

Detection range of CVs is next to irrelevant at T10.

 

The reason the IJN CV's are better is because the USN strike setups got nerfed to [edited] - how can this be a suprise to you? Of course the strike CV players are going to migrate to IJN - who always were stronger at every tier except T9 & T10. 

 

"Hurr new dive bombers are good" - Sod off. The entire reason to play USN CV's were the double torp squads at top tier, now moot. I don't even play my Midway anymore.

[Tugnut]

Need some more CV from other nations to shake it up a bit